Author Topic: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 250618 times)

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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #320 on: September 23, 2008, 10:50:34 PM »
Yeah, I'm hard pressed to come up with any examples.

Still, the capstone doesn't have to be super awesome.  Really, once you sum up all the class features, bonus feats, BAB and saves, that's going to be over 90% of the fighter anyway, even with a huge capstone.  I think there are a lot of simple, but perhaps unique things we can do without going overboard.

---------

Also, from that build I posted earlier, Midnight_V wanted to see Surprise Lunge worked into my version.  Squirlloid had it at 3rd level.  When do you think would be fitting to add it to my version?  I don't think I want to scrap any of the lower level abilities, and I'm not sure I really want to push any of them back.

Also, Eldariel wanted to switch True Grit and Foil at levels 9 and 11, with which I'm fine.  He also suggested simply adding to the fighter's reach as a capstone.  That could work fairly well.  It's nothing super fancy, but it could be used to great effect.  I'm not sure if we want to treat him as a size larger, or perhaps just add 5' to his reach.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #321 on: September 23, 2008, 11:00:27 PM »
Then I propose no special cap stone, just a "you do X better", with X being whatever improving-by-being-a-higher-level-Fighter trick/s fit.
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JaronK

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #322 on: September 23, 2008, 11:14:54 PM »
Well, I put a fourth Adaptive Feat is a capstone, which is pretty handy... that's enough to get a pretty solid set of abilities when you need it (Power Attack/Improved Bull Rush/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack, or EWP: Spiked Chain/ Combat Expertise/Improved Trip/Combat Reflexes, for example).  That combined with a normal bonus feat seemed like a good capstone to me.

JaronK

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #323 on: September 23, 2008, 11:44:37 PM »
A single feat, or are you talking about having one every five levels like on your version of the fighter?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Risada

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #324 on: September 23, 2008, 11:51:44 PM »
A single feat, or are you talking about having one every five levels like on your version of the fighter?

I guess it's the latter...


But, seriously, I think the Fighter needed something that would make people say "Oh, that's a Fighter!".... I don't think feats alone would do that....

EDIT:

Do we have any examples from fiction of someone who would be "20th level" to work from?

Don't know if this is mid or late levels, but a Fighter could do this or this for the "slicing to death" idea....

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #325 on: September 24, 2008, 12:52:30 AM »
Well, what is a Fighter?

A barbarian relies on strength, ferocity, and instinct.

A fighter, presumably, relies on skill, discipline, and precision.

I think the probelm is that "Fighter" is generic. "That's a swashbuckler!" is easy. "That's a samurai!" is easy. "That's a knight!" is easy. "That's a huscarl!" is easy.

But "That's a warrior!" is...not.


Will look at the links later, just commenting and keeping up with threads at the moment.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

Orion

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #326 on: September 24, 2008, 02:11:14 AM »
The fighter's schtick used to be "only PC with multiple attacks" in 2nd Ed, but since 3.0, it's most definitely "feat monkey." Given that, I'd really like to see the Adaptive Feat class feature in there somewhere. I think it's the ultimate fighter/soldier mentality: "Gimme a week to train and you're mine."

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #327 on: September 24, 2008, 02:12:48 AM »
The problem with that is that it cheapens any "I chose to do X and I can kick anyone's ass because I know X." approach.

"Master of all trades" seems excessive.

I like the idea, though, in absence of better.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

JaronK

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #328 on: September 24, 2008, 11:29:41 PM »
A single feat, or are you talking about having one every five levels like on your version of the fighter?

Well, I did say a "fourth" so yeah, one of many.  The idea is to be able to, at high levels, get a whole tree of feats when you need it.

And I think Fighters should be masters of the basics of combat... Tripping, Full Attacking, Bullrushing, etc.  Basically, they can stand and deliver steadily and reliably with a few basic combat options.  Where the Warblade is flashy and the Barbarian hits super hard, the Fighter should be reliable and adaptable.  That's why I put in the save bonuses and the ability to mitigate hits with temporary hitpoints.

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Risada

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #329 on: September 24, 2008, 11:38:37 PM »
And I think Fighters should be masters of the basics of combat... Tripping, Full Attacking, Bullrushing, etc. 

Maybe allowing them to change the feats on the fly (Adaptive Style feat like?) could make them "Masters of Combat"...

Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #330 on: September 25, 2008, 03:00:57 AM »
Quote
And I think Fighters should be masters of the basics of combat... Tripping, Full Attacking, Bullrushing, etc.  Basically, they can stand and deliver steadily and reliably with a few basic combat options.  Where the Warblade is flashy and the Barbarian hits super hard, the Fighter should be reliable and adaptable.  That's why I put in the save bonuses and the ability to mitigate hits with temporary hitpoints.

So, the basic problems we have right now to decide a capstone are:

1) There are few techniques you can conceivably apply to any weapon, and individualizing them means creating more than one possible capstone.
2) We want something general, not "this is only useful if you've got a greatsword" or anything like that; we need to make pretty much every style of combat playable.
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Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
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Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #331 on: September 25, 2008, 03:59:28 AM »
Quite.

At the moment, my thoughts are "You do X even better."

For instance, S&B is even harder to hit, THW hits even harder, etc.

The problem is, that's not particularly interesting.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

JaronK

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #332 on: September 25, 2008, 06:44:52 AM »
Well, the reach idea is a good one, except I don't want to leave out the archers.  So how about as a level 20 capstone you increase your reach by 5' and your range increment on all ranged weapons doubles?  That's handy for every build I can think of and quite cool.

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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #333 on: September 25, 2008, 06:54:58 AM »
The only problem that I can think of that is that it makes people capable of..obscenely long range shots.

Now, if this was just a matter of skilled archery, I could humor that...that's not the problem.

An arrow shot by a longbow simply will not go past about 300+ yards (IRL).

In D&D, with doubled range increments and far shot...

And assuming a composite bow...

Max range: 3,300 feet. Nearly FOUR times as far. This makes no sense! With a magic bow and/or magic arrows, that'd be vaguely believable (if said bow and/or arrows were enhanced to do such feats), but as a "give me a bow and I can hit things over half a mile off." is...ludicrious.

I'd rather keep the range increments the same but allow a 20th level Fighter (archer) to ignore up to (?) in range increments for purposes of penalties based on range.

? because I can't think of a convenient base. I would say Wisdom modifier, if given my druthers.

I presume that the gain to reach means that a longsword (for instance) can attack at 5 feet or 10 feet in your hands.

It seems like a "well, duh", but spelling things out is good.



Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #334 on: September 25, 2008, 10:06:23 AM »
Well, the reach idea is a good one, except I don't want to leave out the archers.  So how about as a level 20 capstone you increase your reach by 5' and your range increment on all ranged weapons doubles?  That's handy for every build I can think of and quite cool.

JaronK
I like that.  As far as a capstone goes, it's not that crazy.  Perhaps it would allow ranged Foils up to 60 feet? 

If I can figure out what level to put it in, I want to repost my latest fighter version with Squirlloid's Surprise Lunge worked in.  He had it at 3rd level.  I'm reluctant to pull anything out of the version I have to place it in, so I'll have to grant two abilities at a certain level.  For now, I'm sticking it in at level 5.  I'm not sure if I want to reword Surprise Lunge at all (right now it's a dirct copy-paste from Squirlloid).

Progression:
1   Bonus Feat, Weapon Aptitude
2   Bonus Feat
3   Art of War
4   Bonus Feat   
5   Battlefield Recon, Surprise Lunge   
6   Bonus Feat
7   Shake it Off   
8   Bonus Feat
9   True Grit   
10  Bonus Feat
11  Foil
12  Bonus Feat
13  Improved Shake it Off
14  Bonus Feat
15  Improved Foil   
16  Bonus Feat
17  Array of Stunts
18  Bonus Feat
19  Greater Shake it Off
20  Bonus Feat, Supreme Reach


Class Features:
[spoiler]

Weapon Aptitude
As the Warblade ability.


Art of War (JaronK)
Fighters train extensively in the basic arts of combat.  At 3rd level the fighter gains a +1 bonus to opposed Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush, Sunder, Grapple, Feint, and Overrun checks.  This bonus increases by +1 every three fighter levels thereafter.

   
Battlefield Recon (JaronK)
Fighters battle against a great many foes, and learn to identify them quickly.  A Fighter of 5th level or higher may add his class level to all Knowledge checks to identify creatures, and always counts as trained in any such knowledge check.


Surprise Lunge (Squirlloid)
As an immediate action the Fighter may treat his threatened area as 5' farther than usual, and any interrupted action which would then trigger an attack of opportunity does so. The fighter moves 5' such that the creature now triggering this AoO would be within his normal threat range, and then resolves the attack of opportunity. His threatened area then returns to normal.


Shake it Off
At 7th level, the fighter gains the ability to shake off various impeding effects.  As a full round action, a fighter can attempt remove one of the following effects: blind, confused, dazzled, deaf, exhausted, fatigued, shaken, or sickened.  To remove the effect, the fighter is allowed to roll another saving throw, at the original DC of the effect. 

If the effect was caused by a spell that did not allow a saving throw, the fighter may attempt a Fort save against a normal DC for a spell or spell-like ability of that level.  Any other condition that does not allow a save cannot be removed with this ability.


True Grit (JaronK)
Fighters must learn to tough it out under fire.  A Fighter of 9th level or higher may add his constitution bonus to any save he has to make.


Foil
At level 11, a fighter can attempt to foil an opponent's action, causing it to fail, as an immediate action against an adjacent opponent.  A fighter may foil another attack, a spell (even if cast defenisvely), or a skill check.  To resolve the foil, the fighter makes an opposed attack roll using his full base attack bonus and all modifiers he'd normally add.  If the fighter wins this opposed roll, the action fails. 

If foiling an attack, the opponents opposes the fighter with his attack roll.  If foiling a spell, the caster opposes the fighter with a Concentration check.  If foiling a skill check, the opponent opposes the fighter with the appropriate skill check.


Improved Shake it Off
At 13th level, a fighter can use shake it off to remove one of the following effects: cowering, dazed, fascinated, frightened, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, and stunned.  A fighter may use this ability despite the condition preventing him from using full round actions.


Improved Foil   
At 15th level, the fighter can use his foil ability at a greater range with a melee or ranged weapon.  If using a melee weapon, the fighter can use foil against any opponent within his reach.  If using a ranged weapon, the fighter can use foil with 30 feet or the weapon's first range increment, whichever is greater.  All range penalties (if any) apply to the opposed roll.


Array of Stunts
At 17th level the fighter gains an extra swift action each round.  This extra action can also be used as an immediate action.


Greater Shake it Off
At 19th level a fighter may use Shake it Off and Improved Shake if Off as a move action.


Supreme Reach
At 20th level, a fighter's melee reach increases by five feet.  All range increments for ranged weapons are doubled.  The fighter may use Foil with a ranged weapon at a distance of up to 60 feet.[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 10:08:28 AM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #335 on: September 25, 2008, 10:53:00 AM »
If I get around to it, I might attempt a rewrite of the ranger.  This started because I wanted to roll Improved and Greater TWF into the base TWF feat.  This, or course, leaves levels 6 and 11 open for Two-weapon specialist rangers.  I thought I could put Two-Weapon Rend at level 11, but I still hadn't decided on level 6.

Then I got thinking.  The only reason those abilities come at levels 6 and 11 are because that's the logical progression for ITWF and GTWF.  There's no reason the archery style feats need to come at those levels.  Maybe I could rewrite the progression a bit.

I see the reason not to grant Track and a combat style feat at level one.  I'm thinking of swithching the two, and granting Track at 2nd level.  This makes the ranger's combat style more viable at 1st level.  I also want to make the 1st archery feat Precise Shot (much more useful than Rapid Shot at that level, I think).

I think I could drop Endurance entirely, or at least grant something else useful at that level.  Tenatively, I might bring the Animal Companion to 3rd level, and grant the 2nd bonus style feat to 4th level.  I'll probably grant the full druid progression to the Animal Companion.

Beyond that, I havn't thought of much.  Is it worth givng them the Duskblade's casting progression, and creating a list of 5th level spells?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #336 on: September 25, 2008, 12:59:17 PM »
Quote
The only problem that I can think of that is that it makes people capable of..obscenely long range shots.

Now, if this was just a matter of skilled archery, I could humor that...that's not the problem.

An arrow shot by a longbow simply will not go past about 300+ yards (IRL).

In D&D, with doubled range increments and far shot...

And assuming a composite bow...

Max range: 3,300 feet. Nearly FOUR times as far. This makes no sense! With a magic bow and/or magic arrows, that'd be vaguely believable (if said bow and/or arrows were enhanced to do such feats), but as a "give me a bow and I can hit things over half a mile off." is...ludicrious.

I'd rather keep the range increments the same but allow a 20th level Fighter (archer) to ignore up to (?) in range increments for purposes of penalties based on range.

? because I can't think of a convenient base. I would say Wisdom modifier, if given my druthers.

I presume that the gain to reach means that a longsword (for instance) can attack at 5 feet or 10 feet in your hands.

It seems like a "well, duh", but spelling things out is good.

Well, at 20th level our buddy the fighter is already well in the fucking legendary range, so worrying about RL stuff should be the last of our troubles.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


JaronK

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #337 on: September 25, 2008, 04:35:25 PM »
Seriously, I don't care if it's possible in real life.  A 20th level Fighter is competing with casters who are bending reality... heck even second level Rogues can be trapped in a 10'X10' room, have a 20' radius explosion go off, and dodge.  Fighters at level 20 ought to be doing impossible things... they're action heroes at that level, not just realistic elite solders.

And for the record, at level 21 (epic) you can take a feat that lets you shoot the moon, literally.  So this isn't that insane at all.  Heck, I've made sniper builds before that can fire to ranges well over 2 miles without penalty (Large Human via Permanent Enlarge Person, using Strongarm Braces to use a Huge +1 Dragonbow Greatbow of Distance, with 5 levels of Cragtop Archer, plus Farshot and Ranged Weapon Mastery... that gets you there pretty darn easy!).  I've made sniper clerics who make use of similar tricks plus Chain of Eyes and Persistant Guided Shot (via Anyspell) to fire without penalty at over a mile away while flying out of sight.

So I see no problem with Fighter archers who have 20 levels of Fighter being able to compete in the ranged catagory.   Heck, he still has trouble seeing that far out due to the spot rules.

JaronK

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #338 on: September 25, 2008, 05:06:26 PM »
+1 to the above two  posters.
  "IRL" is the one of the reasons fighter were bent over in the first place. The laws of physics? Either they apply to all or not at all...  and the answer is not at all. Once you reach certain levels.
Trying to justify things Irl? Horses with wings? Couldn't fly.  6ft long insects? Couldn't breathe.
Magic? Doesn't exist.
That guys sounds like a broken record.

I like surprise lunge at level 5 just as much. Robbypants infact a bit more.

Supreme reach? Bad ass.

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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #339 on: September 25, 2008, 05:13:48 PM »
I like surprise lunge at level 5 just as much. Robbypants infact a bit more.

Supreme reach? Bad ass.
Cool!

For the time being, I've posted that version on the front page.  If I get a chance soon, I'll try to expand on my ideas for the ranger and barbarian.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]