D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[RobbyPants]

So are you suggesting just using OW4's version as-is with no changes to the smite now?

I suppose if you really want a more powerful smite, you can make a feat for it.  Using the feat makes it so you can't smite for the rest of the day (losing your per/encounter smites) and the strength of it is based on how many per/encounter smites were available to you.

[veekie]

I'm NOT saying lets give them a shitty smite then pay to make it good. I"m saying give them a good smite system and allow options to become a smite master. Per encounter fixes the first. His feats do a lot to start us in the right direction. . . I'm looking at 10 more options to add as feats for Owa's paladin.

Double misunderstanding here, I'm proposing that his feats be integrated into the class,in a manner similar to the rogue's special abilities, allowing for customized expansion of smites built right in. People will want to take more paladin levels because thats where the interesting options open up(around 10+ should be where the Happy Fun Stuff like mass smiting, Smiting for multiple attacks(ala Holy Weapon, only more so) etc happen).

Along with that we're apparently figuring out what "smite evil" will become if it needs to be changed at all. . .
   I think a lot of people (not me perse) will actually find giving smite "anything" disagreable, even though that's pretty standard.

Seconded on this, Paladins smite Evil, and Blackguards smiting Neutrals and Goods is far as I'm willing to go with this, and only contingent on at least a partial trade of Lay On Hands for the smiting of N.

Not too clear what you are saying on the second part about blackguards though.

As for Robby's suggestions, I'd say no to damage dice for smites, lets have it be multiple, fixed damage smites with SFX(though it seems me and M_V disagree on the means of granting said SFX).

[DavidWL]

Wow.

So I just read (and then started skimmng) through all 71 pages of this thread.  Below are my sleep-deprived, unorganized musings.  More later.

The Fighter is great.

The rebalance for Cleric was well-done.  Clerics should probably have actual class features ... at least a feat every 5.  Otherwise there is no incentive not to prestige class out.

It would be nice if there were a series of "Ceremonies" that clerics could perform.  Sacrifice lots of gold/exp with the help of many people, and your god helps you.  (Healthy crops, blessed babies, avert natural disasters, etc.).  An ability that levels up with the cleric - mostly for flavor, but sometimes useful.  The effect of the ceremonies depends on what you worship.

The re-balance for the Druid was good, although it still needs more fixin'.

The spells known list for the Sorcerer was a real power boost - probably good when compared to the Wizard.  I really think it should have options it can trade spells for stuff (a la the caster in 2e sentinals or the quintessential sorcerer).  "Wizards cast magic.  Sorcerers Are Magic".  I may work on this later as I have some time off of work.

The Monk is now super-cool.  (Before it was mostly-boring).

Grammar Note1:  "exastion" needs to be corrected on the description of the Diamond Soul ability of the Monk
Grammar Note2:  "number of times per day equal to + the monks level" ... how many times? in the description of Enlightened Strike for the Monk.  I assume you mean 1 + monk level (for example).

I think the monk should get mettle instead of improved evasion.  (But note in the class description that the class is treated as having improved evasion for the purposes of prerequisites, etc.).  Early on the monk is about advanced martial training, later on it is about mystical achievement and mental toughness.  Or even just plain add mettle at mid levels.

Instead of Magic Immunity ... how about Mindblank (Ex) and construct/undead immunities (give it all the benefits of the Deathless type, but none of the drawbacks).  Seems more flavorful.  Or just add the Deathless type (without changing HP) ... it just seems like an awesome fit.

About Rangers.  Some thoughts on Benchmarks:
- A ranger should be about as good as a fighter against favored enemies (although with fewer tactical choices).  He should get this advantage about 1/2 to 1/3rd of the time over a few adventures.
- A ranger should be the best in the wilderness.  (Survival, Tracking, Movement, Wilderness Scouting, etc.)
- Should be a very good hunter (hiding and then killing in the wilderness).
   - add an ability to use skills even when they shouldn't be able to vs. FEs a la darkstalker

Thoughts - I like One's Paladin.  Do the same thing for Ranger with caster level = Ranger Level - 3.

More later!

Best,
David

[RobbyPants]

I should probably put a note on the front page.  I don't consider the cleric, sorcerer, or wizard to be complete at this point.  What's up there is about a third or so revision on each after different discussions.  I agree fully that all three need some class features to encourage not PrCing out.

Something I'm working on is a revised generalist sorcerer/wizard spell list to keep the "general" caster from being better than a specialist.  Bkdubs worked up a revised list of core spells, but I want to add in spells from the Complete Mage, PHB2, and Spell Compendium.  When that's done, I'll have a better idea on class features.

I agree the monk nees some grammar and format fixes.  It was put up rather quickly once we agreed on the class features.

[veekie]

RE the cleric, Ceremonies are awfully campaign specific(since they're tied to gods), I'd rather put some domain powers(say, Air getting some form of Flight later(upgrading from an Air Walk, superjump, auto feather fall, etc), the aligned domains bringing in Outsider transformation(staggered of course), War giving a +1/4 cleric level sacred bonus to attack, along with free Weapon focus/Specialisation tree, etc) in for later levels(a similar progression to the sorc's heritages seem appropriate), so they are actually worth something besides their spells. And split it into a martial(3/4 BAB, d8 Fort and Will good, less spell access) and non martial version(1/2 BAB, d6 Will good, better spell access). Also, instead of knowing all their spells automatically, have a spells known list like the sorc(this also entails folding the Favored Soul in, with improved domain powers supplying special abilties).

Of course, the last part I wanted was to completely split the cleric list up into domains, and grant spells according to that, but it's unfeasible. You'd end up with couple dozen spell lists to juggle.

I think I like using brackets too much.

[Kuroimaken]

RE the cleric, Ceremonies are awfully campaign specific(since they're tied to gods), I'd rather put some domain powers(say, Air getting some form of Flight later(upgrading from an Air Walk, superjump, auto feather fall, etc), the aligned domains bringing in Outsider transformation(staggered of course), War giving a +1/4 cleric level sacred bonus to attack, along with free Weapon focus/Specialisation tree, etc) in for later levels(a similar progression to the sorc's heritages seem appropriate), so they are actually worth something besides their spells. And split it into a martial(3/4 BAB, d8 Fort and Will good, less spell access) and non martial version(1/2 BAB, d6 Will good, better spell access). Also, instead of knowing all their spells automatically, have a spells known list like the sorc(this also entails folding the Favored Soul in, with improved domain powers supplying special abilties).

Of course, the last part I wanted was to completely split the cleric list up into domains, and grant spells according to that, but it's unfeasible. You'd end up with couple dozen spell lists to juggle.

I think I like using brackets too much.

Happens to all of us (the brackets, I mean).

I actually kinda like the idea of using Cloistered Cleric as a base for our Cleric, period. The domains ideas are pretty darned good, and so is reducing the whole list to a list of spells known.

Maybe we could have some spells be inextricably tied to their spells known, but in addition to rather than taking up additional space. As in: every Cleric knows X, Y and Z spells, in addition to the ones granted by their domain, and table X-Y: Cleric Spells Known.

[RobbyPants]

I also was trying to consolidate the bulk of the "cleric" list into larger domains (three or four spells per level), and just have a smaller cleric list.  I had a hard time doing it without a lot of overlap, and eventually dropped the project.

Having the cloistered cleric be the standard could work.  I don't see any reason to drop the core cleric though, so long as they're restricted enough to let live.  So far, I'd put forth that they get a list of spells known like the sorcerer.  I think that helps a lot.  Otherwise, everytime a new book comes out, the cleric gets another fifty spells.

[Soda]

I like the way I believe it is now. He can pick some "universal" cleric spells, but is largely limited to his domains which are expanded and plentiful.

Also reminds me to ask for ideas about, for example, the water domain ability to turn fire creatures. With no more turning, what are good abilities for such domains (there are a bunch).

[veekie]

The elemental and aligned domains are simple enough, we can make them transformational, at least in part. Someone with the Fire, Law and Good domain ends up looking like some kind of archon at the end, stuff like that.

[Midnight_v]

I really like the fact that you're not stuck being the band aid for the party.
The cleric should not be cloisterd...
How about we just remove the domain spells. Let him keep the nifty things that domains give him. Just not the access to almost every wizard spell entire.
Damn...
...
 I know thats wrong cause it sounds like paizo.
Well one thing, maybe we could make combat healing realisticly feasible. Make the converted to healing spells free. Or ....
*Sigh* Cleric... this is gonna take awhile.

I know one thing for certain.. I don't want to lose the "battle cleric" so the armor and buff version of the cleric should stay like the guy on the old D&D tower of doom game.
... I'm rambling... I should sleep...

[DavidWL]

Re: Cleric

- I like growing domain powers.  This allows for a very customizable Cleric.
- Perhaps with text that reads something like, "For every level of Cleric you have, you can qualify for domain powers as on the list below".  Then the domain powers encourage you to stay in the Cleric class. 
- Let us keep in mind things like the Sovereign Speaker, or even a Contemplative 2 dip.

How much power should we give the cleric?  The equivalent of 1 feat every 5?  More?  (Note:  I'd say 1 feat = 1 spell of max level => @15th level this could even be a supernatural mindblank, for the protection domain, etc.)

One practical problem with this as a solution is there are a lot of domains, so this would be a lot of tweaking.

Also, it feels like it is the "in" thing for a class to say "I'm cool because I'm transformational!".  Personally, I'd prefer if the coolness of the domains was not _only_ about being transformational.

Finally, if people feel the Cleric still needs to be watered down, then I'd say that the armor is a function of the war domain, and that spontaneous healing a function of the healing domain.  (Or some combination).  My point being that we don't really have to entirely take these features away to keep the Cleric as is.  We'd just say that the PHB cleric is a War/Healing cleric.

Best,
David

[veekie]

Well, transformational was mostly for the elemental and alignment domains, which would otherwise be carbon copies of each other, and also because they each have some archetype creature tied to them. War/Protection/Destruction domain would be the purview of the tankric(armor,shield,weapon proficiencies and bonuses, improving BAB to 3/4 and adding attack/defense bonuses, etc), etc. A feat equivalent effect every 5 levels seem appropriate, a decent feat of course.

For the Speaker and Contemplative though, if these classes did not advance domain powers(just granting domains), then theres not so much of an issue, you get more domains than you normally do, but they are weaker than a pure cleric's.

Coming up with powers for each domain shouldn't be too hard, a few of them are pretty obvious anyway.

Limiting the spontaneous healing to the Healing domain might come out funny though, since a lot of existing characters would be using that, and unless they all switch over to having the healing domain.

This is contingent upon nerfing cleric spell access in some manner, btw. Most likely a spells known list like the sorceror's, either a slightly larger, prepared list, or a list about the same size, but spontaneous(at least unlike the 'standard' favored soul, they don't have MAD and have customisable powers instead of just the weapon focus feat chain). Also on dropping the BAB, HD size and/or good Fort save, leaving those to specific domains. Basically the idea is to have it be interesting and moderately powerful, instead of bland and extremely powerful.

Coming up with powers for each domain would also probably be less work than splitting all the spells in the cleric list into domains(that's a task of murderous scale if I ever saw one).

Also, I think I edit too much, on top of (brackets).

[Midnight_v]

Finally, if people feel the Cleric still needs to be watered down, then I'd say that the armor is a function of the war domain, and that spontaneous healing a function of the healing domain.  (Or some combination).  My point being that we don't really have to entirely take these features away to keep the Cleric as is. We'd just say that the PHB cleric is a War/Healing cleric.

Hell no. The whole concept of the cleric from the first time it appeared was wearing armor and healing and casting "sticks to snakes" .

Also on dropping the BAB, HD size and/or good Fort save, leaving those to specific domains. Basically the idea is to have it be interesting and moderately powerful, instead of bland and extremely powerful.

... and more hell no...
...
Listen I really dont' mean to be rude (but it's christmas and Bah humbug) but this is a pretty delicate thing.
I don't know what any of your experience level with D&D is so please understand where I'm coming from with this: The cleric we have in 3.5 is a result of everyone hating being the cleric cause no one wanted to be the band-aid, it was hated cause they got non of the glory and generally were a "blah" but needed class. Everyone seemed to love the traditional flavor of the armored guy with the mace. (Which was originally one of thier things they could only use blunt weapons I suppose that mattered a bit in earlier editions)
So to fix those weaknesses, so that people would play clerics they pushed cleric to its limit of goodness and took it over...
So before any fixes Any at all... we need to have a discussion and analysis of the cleric, what makes it good, what makes it too good.
I'm going to start by reiterating The clerics role was orignally, healer slash secondary fighter, which I think we should maintain that. Bab and Hp hits don't matter. actually...

 The arcade game. Where I'm going to fighter you is making cloisterd cleric the standard at which point we make the cleric a wizard with a worse spell list.  Although if you'll notice cloisterd cleric is constanly used in optimization, so I'm going to tell you flat out that frankly it also lends itself to brokenation. You prolly haven't experience it though...

and a note to all but specifically @ Robbypants.
The reactionary response to "fix" the cleric initially will be to make is WAAAAY less powerful, and probbably overshooting the mark if we don't address what specifically is wrong with the class.
I think thats what happend with the wizard fixes infact but I wasn't there so  it is what it is. . .

Soo... the cleric. What's up with it?
You know what it is? Spells.
The spell were too powerful. The ability to cast persited spells with night sticks was broke. The ability to cast off the wizard list with anyspell was broke.
Like so many things in the game the brokenation of the cleric stems from spells.
If nothing else in this post THIS:
I say keep the base chasis... do a quick rundown of the cleric spells. We change the domain interaction a bit, check it vs, somthing we consider balanced. "Binder for instance or Crusader" and against some of the other fixes that people have created from around the net and through that process we should end with a more balanced, and true to what the class has been Cleric. It is easier to power something up to playable levels than power something down into playablility cause you know exactly whats wrong. Going down the scale we don't know whats wrong only that the "class is too powerful" ... We need to isolate "why" specifically.
before we make any changes.

[veekie]

*Shrugs*
It's my 2cp, and Cloistered(without the bonuses) + limited spell access(spells known list) + improved domains seem to fulfill most of the balancing needs of the cleric. It's reduced in power(mainly the effect of the spell access restriction, though the cloistered stuff does a considerable part as well), and clerics of different domains are actually, well, different, and interesting compared to PrCs. Particular domains preserve the option for a 'traditional' cleric, but they lose out on some of the fun stuff other domains give.

Just testing the waters, though it being Christmas, most people are elsewhere.
EDIT: And yes, I'm aware of the knowledge devotion and other such hijinks, they aren't really related to the concept of dropping the tanking off the cleric though, and I never suggested making it Cloistered(in fact, I can't, not with the proposed modified domains and keeping it sane) in whole. The biggest dent is really the hit to spellcasting by making it a spells known list instead of automatically having all spells on his list at dawn.

[Soda]

Let's see...

Frame
d8 or d6
Med BAB or poor
Good Fort?
Skills points?


Domains
Scaling powers?
More domain spells?
Spontaneous domain access?
No domain spells?
SLA's and scaling powers intead?


Spells
Less spells prepared?
Spells known instead?
Spontaneous Cures?


Other
Bonus feats?
Restrict DMM?

[veekie]

Let's see...

Frame
d8 or d6
Med BAB or poor
Good Fort?
Skills points?


Domains
Scaling powers?
More domain spells?
Spontaneous domain access?
No domain spells?
SLA's and scaling powers intead?


Spells
Less spells prepared?
Spells known instead?
Spontaneous Cures?


Other
Bonus feats?
Restrict DMM?

Well now, this is handy.

d6
poor
no
4+int or 6+int, depending on if the across the board +2 skill points is implemented.

Scaling(and varying) powers
Possibly, depends on how large the 'spells known' list is
Hmm, haven't thought about this, but if domains are 1 spell/level, sure. Heck, full domain spontaneity is probably fine.
no to this, they help diversify the cleric, if not by much because existing clerics usually have one variant or another on their regular list anyway.
Uh, dunno what you're asking here, but probably haven't considered it before.

Number of prepared spells seems alright,
Definitely, though I'm undecided on if it should be a prepared cleric, or a spontaneous one. I favor the latter, but it's just a personal preference.
Keep spontaneous cures, they're harmless by my book.

No need for bonus feats if the domains are each granting fancy stuff
This one I think we can all agree on, but the most flagrant abuse is probably Persistent spell. Perhaps a cap on the highest effective level you can boost a spell to(a few of the Persisting problems might slip through, but they'd show up a good bit later), based on your caster level?

[Soda]

The only idea I really care either way for is domain spells. I like the flavor. I think there should be 2-4 domain spells per level, cast spontaneously. This would be the bulk of Cleric's casting. Then he'd either prepare or know a few other spells of his choosing.

My DMM fix would be to limit it so you can't apply high cost metamagic unless you have those high level slots. IE, you can Quicken 1st level spells when you have 5th level slots.

[Midnight_v]

Let's see...

Frame
d8 or d6
Med BAB or poor
Good Fort?
Skills points?


Domains
Scaling powers?
More domain spells?
Spontaneous domain access?
No domain spells?
SLA's and scaling powers intead?


Spells
Less spells prepared?
Spells known instead?
Spontaneous Cures?


Other
Bonus feats?
Restrict DMM?

I don't have a lot of time right now but +fu to you for this organizational tool.

d8
Med BAB
Good Fort? Yes
Skills points?
4x (but maybe as an alternative....)This:
2X (plus you gain one free ranks in knowledge religion and 1 rank per level depending on your domain(s).)
-----------------------------------------
I intend to keep the cleric recognizable as the phb cleric as much as possible.
Clearly veekie and will debate this extensively here soon. . . Moving away from the "fullplate cleric" to the "pope cleric" is a shitty move in my book.
Totally different from anyother incarnation of the cleric anywhere.
Further we haven't outlined what actually "Wrong" with the cleric. . .
so basically any decisions at this point are anecdotal essentially unfounded. There's not need to go 100% the opposite direction and make the cleric a "caster only" think like the shugenja.
I hate that idea. . . The cleric has traditionally in D&D the secondary fighter. Lets not strip him of that role.
*sigh*... I have to go spend time with family.
Merry Chistmas guys.
(or happy holidays... if your of such persuasion.)

Edit:

My DMM fix would be to limit it so you can't apply high cost metamagic unless you have those high level slots. IE, you can Quicken 1st level spells when you have 5th level slots.

An excellent fix. Somethings are just the elephant in the room.

[veekie]

@M_V
Well, the clanky cleric is still available with the martial domains, I figure War could restore the BAB and add some sacred bonuses to attack rolls(winding up at effectively full BAB, less iteratives and feat qualification), as well as the weapon focus feat chain(with proficiency of course). Protection could be armor and shield improvements/proficiencies, on top of defensive aura type effects. Also nothing I've mentioned so far considered the existing armor proficiencies yet, though perhaps armor might be dropped a step down to make the norm more Breastplate/chainmail than Full Plate(leaving the heavies to the Protection cleric and the paladin).

The only idea I really care either way for is domain spells. I like the flavor. I think there should be 2-4 domain spells per level, cast spontaneously. This would be the bulk of Cleric's casting. Then he'd either prepare or know a few other spells of his choosing.

I sorta agree with this, but again, this'd be a big assignment, we'd have to divide the task up, and that'd have to come after we figure out the main direction of the changes(currently, as M_V put it, pope-cleric vs plate-cleric, but we need more opinions on the matter before a choice can be made). Having a solid number of spells to aim for would also help, compared to the previous, abortive attempt to subsume the entire cleric spell list into domains.

My DMM fix would be to limit it so you can't apply high cost metamagic unless you have those high level slots. IE, you can Quicken 1st level spells when you have 5th level slots.

Works for me too, turns DMM into a power conservation method, rather than a power increase method. Short and sweet to boot.

[Soda]

As far as BAB and HD, the cloistered variant existed and both types of clerics are used, so I say leave it at that.