D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[RobbyPants]

Wow.  Bkdubs123, Thanks for posting that.

The spell list you posted is a lot like what I'd envisioned.  I tried to start one twice and gave up at about 3rd level.  All in all, I don't see anything glaringly bad in it.

I'd considered allowing the Extra Spell feat to grant access to spells off the original Sorcerer/Wizard list, but I think your Advanced Learning works fine.  It gives incentive to stay the course anyway.

I do agree with Kuroimaken that I don't know we need this much MAD.  Certainly not 3 ability scores.  I guess I can sort of see the reasoning that you need an all-around keen intellect to be a genralist, but it still seems like a pain.  With the spell list you posted, we might be able to get it down to just Int, or maybe Int and Cha.

As for the spellbook, should the wizard have to pay 100 gp per page to scribe?  I'd say no, and just make him pay per scroll.

As for Detect Magic, I can see about working something up in the Skills & Feats thread.  Perhaps Detect Magic should stay, and grant a +10 bonus to Spellcraft rolls for detecting magical auras.

Something else to consider Robby, just to make Warmage a little more attractive, is maybe to allow all spellcasters to add their "key ability modifier" to damage with damage dealing spells a la Warmage's Edge, but allow only the Warmage to deal Int times spell level extra damage.

So a Wizard with 30 Int, casting a Polar Ray deals 20d6+10 cold damage, but a Warmage with 30 Int deals 20d6+90 cold damage! Definitely makes blasting with the specialist blaster seem a lot more awesome.

Do remember that I'm already adding extra to the damage.  Polar Ray would already be 20d6+100.  Still, I see what you're getting at.  If nothing else, Warmages Edge could increase this number a bit.  I don't know if an extra +1 per die is worth it or not.  20d6+100 would jump to 20d6+120.  Not a huge boost.  I'll give it some thought.


Edit:
I wonder if I want to keep the wizard and sorcerer as separate classes.  For the most part, I'd say yes.  I think a huge fix comes by just using that spell list you created.  I'll give it some thought.  Thanks again for posting that.

[bkdubs123]

Wow.  Bkdubs123, Thanks for posting that.

No problem.

As for the spellbook, should the wizard have to pay 100 gp per page to scribe?  I'd say no, and just make him pay per scroll.

Huh?

Something else to consider Robby, just to make Warmage a little more attractive, is maybe to allow all spellcasters to add their "key ability modifier" to damage with damage dealing spells a la Warmage's Edge, but allow only the Warmage to deal Int times spell level extra damage.

So a Wizard with 30 Int, casting a Polar Ray deals 20d6+10 cold damage, but a Warmage with 30 Int deals 20d6+90 cold damage! Definitely makes blasting with the specialist blaster seem a lot more awesome.

Do remember that I'm already adding extra to the damage.  Polar Ray would already be 20d6+100.  Still, I see what you're getting at.  If nothing else, Warmages Edge could increase this number a bit.  I don't know if an extra +1 per die is worth it or not.  20d6+100 would jump to 20d6+120.  Not a huge boost.  I'll give it some thought.

No, no, I understand that you're already adding extra to the damage. What I meant was that use your existing addition to damage and replace Warmage's Edge with that, but don't let normal casters get that big of a benefit. Only allow other casters to deal regular old Warmage Edge extra damage.

[RobbyPants]

As for the spellbook, should the wizard have to pay 100 gp per page to scribe?  I'd say no, and just make him pay per scroll.

Huh?

You mentioned spellbooks, but in away different from the PHB.  Here's what you wrote:

A Wizard begins play knowing 3 1st level spells, and learns an additional spell of any spell level available for him to cast at every class level. Wizards may record additional spells into spellbooks. If a Wizard chooses he may learn an additional spell at each level but these spells must be transcribed into a spellbook. If he does not have access to the spellbook he may not prepare spells learned in this way.

I was wondering if there's a cost.

No, no, I understand that you're already adding extra to the damage. What I meant was that use your existing addition to damage and replace Warmage's Edge with that, but don't let normal casters get that big of a benefit. Only allow other casters to deal regular old Warmage Edge extra damage.

It's a thought.  Still, the whole reason I wanted a solid boost was to put these spells on par with save-or-sucks/dies.

[bkdubs123]

Oh, yeah, there should still be a cost to having and maintaining a spellbook. Free spells known, even if they have the potential to be taken away, isn't something to just give out willy-nilly.

The only reason I suggest the Warmage's Edge thing is that a blanket boost across the board gives players EVEN LESS reason than before to play a Warmage.

[Kuroimaken]

I disagree on both counts. I introduced the MAD both because I thought it was unfair that warrior types automatically have MAD for Str or Dex and Con (if not all of those three AND more), but also because it definitely does make the class weaker (which is needed in my opinion). If it's too much make the save DCs dependent on Wis instead of Cha, but I'm not sure.

As Robby said, I understand the reasoning behind it, but the Wizard ALREADY needs a very high Int score just to get access to his own class features (differently from many other classes that get them and just happen to work better with better scores). Adding MAD on top of that makes him... just plain sucky, specially compared to the specialist types we already have around (mind you, those don't suffer from MAD, yet they're just fine).

[bkdubs123]

As Robby said, I understand the reasoning behind it, but the Wizard ALREADY needs a very high Int score just to get access to his own class features (differently from many other classes that get them and just happen to work better with better scores).

I really wouldn't call 19 very high. You should probably have that by 4th level, if not then certainly by 6ish.

Adding MAD on top of that makes him... just plain sucky, specially compared to the specialist types we already have around (mind you, those don't suffer from MAD, yet they're just fine).

Again, it doesn't make the class sucky, it just makes the class have to work more to be strong. You say that warriors don't need high ability scores for their class features, and you're right. They need high ability scores to even function. A high level warrior type needs at least one physical attribute over 20 and another one nearing or exceeding 30 to have a chance at doing anything relevant. A high level caster only needs one stat, and you can guarantee it will be higher than any stat the warrior has.

Now compared to the other specialist types okay, sure, they don't suffer from MAD, but maybe they should. Maybe since this is a rebalancing thread and the Beguiler and Dread Necro are Tier 2 while the Warblade and Crusader shuffle their feet in Tier 3, maybe we should do something to bridge the gap. The difference between those two Tiers is still significant.

[veekie]

Overall, I think giving every class some level of MAD(2 stats seems about right, 3 might be a bit much), should keep the stats from becoming too extreme as they level. Single stat classes tend to end up with identical stat arrays, with one stat in the stratosphere and the remainder no higher than 14 pre buffs.

[RobbyPants]

Doesn't the warmage already have some MAD built in?  Isn't Warmage's Edge based on Int, but casting based on Cha?

Perhaps what we should do is have casting based off one stat, and class features based on a second?  I suppose spell access and bonus spells as one, and spell DCs as another isn't terrible.

Of course, going off the warrior argument, they need Str, Dex, Con, and maybe one of the mental stats.  You can often dump Dex if you're a heavy tank.  Casters need their casting stat, Dex, and Con to be viable.  I've seen arguments for why Dex or Con is important, but regardless of which is more important, both are pretty important.  So, even as it's currently set up, casters need three stats anyway.

The only reason I suggest the Warmage's Edge thing is that a blanket boost across the board gives players EVEN LESS reason than before to play a Warmage.

You do have a point here.  Let me see if I can think something up.  It might be a simple as just beefing up Warmage's Edge.  I may have to pull my blanket direct damage boost back a bit though.

[bkdubs123]

Of course, going off the warrior argument, they need Str, Dex, Con, and maybe one of the mental stats.  You can often dump Dex if you're a heavy tank.  Casters need their casting stat, Dex, and Con to be viable.  I've seen arguments for why Dex or Con is important, but regardless of which is more important, both are pretty important.  So, even as it's currently set up, casters need three stats anyway.

What are those arguments? I mean they might need them at lower levels, but after a short while defenses like Mirror Image, Fly, Contingency, and Greater Blink make them nigh invincible.

You do have a point here.  Let me see if I can think something up.  It might be a simple as just beefing up Warmage's Edge.  I may have to pull my blanket direct damage boost back a bit though.

Yeah I would suggest scaling the blanket damage boost back, and ramping up Warmage's Edge. Maybe cut the standard boost in half and make it so Warmage's Edge is roughly equal to, or a little stronger than, the current value of the blanket damage boost.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah I would suggest scaling the blanket damage boost back, and ramping up Warmage's Edge. Maybe cut the standard boost in half and make it so Warmage's Edge is roughly equal to, or a little stronger than, the current value of the blanket damage boost.

That was roughly what I was thinking.  Currently, the formula is the spell level divided by two, round up.  So you end up with:

0: +0
1: +1
2: +1
3: +2
4: +2
5: +3
6: +3
7: +4
8: +4
9: +5

How about divide by 3 round up?

0: +0
1: +1
2: +1
3: +1
4: +2
5: +2
6: +2
7: +3
8: +3
9: +3

Capped fireballs drop from 10d6+20 to 10d6+10 (eh), Capped Cones of Cold drop from 15d6+45 to 15d6+30 (again, eh), and capped 9th level spells at 20th level go from 20d6+100 to 20d6+60 (more noticable, but not huge at that level).

Maybe that's the way to go for the bulk of casters.  You're suggesting Int mod X spell level for Warmage's Edge?  I guess with the example you gave, an Int of 30 on a 9th level spell is +90 points.  It's a big boost, but Int is also a secondary stat for Warmages.  I'd assume your typical Warmage would pump Cha ahead of Int.  Maybe with this feature, they might try to keep them equal.

[bkdubs123]

Okay, so Warmage's would get the normal per damage dice boost, and Warmage's Edge would be Int mod x Spell Level on top of that? Sounds good to me.

[RobbyPants]

A while back I'd discussed changing the cleric's spell list to focus more heavily on the domains, and less on the generic Cleric list.  I've been having trouble getting a good list together that doesn't have an annoying level of overlap between domains.

Now, I think a lot of what makes clerics and druids so strong is that they have full access to their spell list.  Even though they are prepared casters, they can completely revamp their spells the next time they pray for them.  That being said, what if their spell list was restricted more?

The easiest solution I can think of involves giving them spells known, like a sorcerer.  I would, however, like to keep them as prepared casters (so their spells per day will remain unchanged).  In compensation, I would give them more spells known than the sorcerer. 

For clerics, I was thinking to give them the spells known as a sorcerer, and in addition, all spells from their domain are added to the list.  They can still spontaneously cure/inflict.

As for the druid, I was thinking of using the sorcerer's spells known table, and adding two to each spell level (which helps make up for the cleric's domains).  Perhaps this is too much, in that the cleric's domains aren't as flexible as simply picking two more spells each level, and there is often overlap with their normal list.  Should this be one spell per level instead?  Druids would also keep the ability to spontaneously cast Summon Natures Ally.

I figure, they should get the ability to swap out spells, simlar to the sorcerer as they gain levels (straight-classed levels to give them incentive to stay in the class).

___________________

This brings me to another topic: should sorcerers (and clerics and druids if this new method is adpoted) be less restricted in swapping out their spells known as they gain levels?  It would both make a bad decision less detrimental, and would also help with picking spells that are more useful at lower levels.  I can think of two ways to do this:

First, the current system restricts the sorcerer in that the spell must be at least two levels lower than the highest level he can cast.  Making this one level lower makes things a lot easier on him.

Second, the sorcerer could get this ability more often.  Would it be game breaking if every level, the sorcerer had the option to swap out a single spell?  Obvously, they might opt not to.

Of course, we could choose to do both of these.  I think the first idea would be the most benificial.  Also, if we do decide to keep it every other level (like it currently is), why not drop it a level, and have it start at 3 and be every odd level?  This is nice in that you get your new spell levels on even levels, and you could swap on odd levels.  If this approach were used for clerics and druids, we should keep it on the even levels.

[RobbyPants]

An idea brought up when I started developing the oracle: should the Wis bonus to AC granted by monks and swordsages be capped by level similar to the Int bonus from Canny Defense?  I can see a reason to do so, but this certainly sucks for low-level monks.  How much of a problem has monk-dipping been in the past?  As a general rule, it's a terrible idea to give up a caster level, but if caster levels are nerfed enough, might it be worth it?  Even so, as long as the Wis bonus is restricted to no or light armor, is it even an issue?  I'm inclined to say no, but I wanted to bring it up just the same.

[Kuroimaken]

An idea brought up when I started developing the oracle: should the Wis bonus to AC granted by monks and swordsages be capped by level similar to the Int bonus from Canny Defense?  I can see a reason to do so, but this certainly sucks for low-level monks.  How much of a problem has monk-dipping been in the past?  As a general rule, it's a terrible idea to give up a caster level, but if caster levels are nerfed enough, might it be worth it?  Even so, as long as the Wis bonus is restricted to no or light armor, is it even an issue?  I'm inclined to say no, but I wanted to bring it up just the same.

Generally speaking, when you consider the armor restrictions for both the Swordsage AND the Monk, it's simply not that much of a game-breaker to let them use their full bonus. I find that those are fine the way they are.

As for the spells (which got touched upon in another post), the ability to swap out spells, even if it were spells of the highest level available, every level, is NOT an ability that'd make Sorcerers overpowered. Someone who swapped ALL his/her low-level spells known for high-level spells known would be in serious trouble as soon as his/her high-level spell slots ran out (and since we're nerfing the spells themselves, this should be considered a very definite possibility).

[veekie]

Firstly, the cleric/druid being converted to spontaneous is fine with me, fits their image more anyway(what kind of world has the priests prepare their available miracles every dawn instead of having anything within their power on demand?) and, with some guidelines on these(in that the known spells should be in line with their deity's theme).

Of course, failing that, in consideration of compatibility, it'd have to be a somewhat larger known list than the sorceror's since it's a prepared caster without a means of increasing the number of known spells. Same goes for the druid. I'd think 2 more spells known at least, for the cleric, not counting the domains, and 3 for the druid. These are asspull numbers mind, so take em with a pinch of salt.

Swapping out a single spell every level is also alright, if the spells were of the same level(or less?) as the swapped out spell's. Swapping for higher level spells leaves you with a mild headache afterwards.

For AC bonuses, I think the Swordsage's should be capped(since light armor still provides a decent dose of AC), but the Monk, less sure, since the 'no armor-at all' restriction makes up for it. After all, most clerics can wear armor just fine, and picking up some monk means they actually lose AC most of the time when they do that.

[RobbyPants]

Swapping out a single spell every level is also alright, if the spells were of the same level(or less?) as the swapped out spell's. Swapping for higher level spells leaves you with a mild headache afterwards.

Yes.  You would only be allowed to swap a spell for one of equal or lower level.

I'm assuming you didn't have a problem with allowing them to swap a spell that's one level lower than their highest level spell, as opposed to the current method of swapping two levels lower?

For AC bonuses, I think the Swordsage's should be capped(since light armor still provides a decent dose of AC), but the Monk, less sure, since the 'no armor-at all' restriction makes up for it. After all, most clerics can wear armor just fine, and picking up some monk means they actually lose AC most of the time when they do that.

I guess I can see the reasoning of capping it if you get the ability with light armor, but not capping it if you don't (i.e. capping it for the swordsage and oracle, but not for the monk or unarmed swordsage*).


* Yes, I think this needs an errata, in that the swordsage's Wis-to-AC ability should function in light or no armor, and it should function in no armor for the unarmed variant.

[veekie]

Not a problem in the world, they could retrain it before that anyway, if they had enough downtime.

[RobbyPants]

I've never used retraining rules, but good point.

I'm a bit torn on the whole prepared vs. spontanous thing.  I could go either way, but if I keep them as prepared, it leaves the Favored Soul and Spirit Shaman as separate classes.  If I were to make them spontaneous, there would be no difference other than the (very few) class features.

Now, either way you slice it, prepared or not, with what I'm suggesting, it makes the Healing domain next to useless.  Should it get some other bonus, such as rolling larger dice on all cure spells?  Rolling d12 is suggested in Unearthed Arcana for a similar issue caused by the spell point system.  It nets an average increase of +2 points per level of the spell for Cure Light thorugh Cure Critical.  It's not ground breaking, but it might make you feel a little better about the domain choice.

[veekie]

For Healing domain, why not add the cleric's wis mod(xlevel?), to the heal amount? Like Warmage's Edge, only this is Healer's Edge. In exchange, they basically have one whole line of spells chucked away.

As for the Favored Soul and Spirit Shaman, they could use some more interesting options in class features then. We are giving the cleric more interesting domain powers that scale by cleric level right?

[RobbyPants]

For Healing domain, why not add the cleric's wis mod(xlevel?), to the heal amount? Like Warmage's Edge, only this is Healer's Edge. In exchange, they basically have one whole line of spells chucked away.

Interesting idea.  Now, once you get to the mass cure spells at levels 5 - 8, should they be considered 4 levels lower?  It wouldn't seem right that with a sufficiently high Wis mod, a cleric could heal more to a single target with a Mass Cure Light Wounds than he could with a Cure Critical Wounds.

That being said, I guess it's nothing too crazy.  You're looking at an extra 3 or 4 HP at 1st level.  By 5th level, CLW would probably have an extra +5 or so HP healed, and CSW would be at +15.  By the time you get to really high levels, you're looking at something like +40 HP on a CCW, and that's still not that potent.

I like this idea.  It's fairly simple, and I think it gives a cleric a good reason to choose the Healing domain.  I haven't run any real math on it, but it certainly makes in-combat healing more of an option.

As for the Favored Soul and Spirit Shaman, they could use some more interesting options in class features then. We are giving the cleric more interesting domain powers that scale by cleric level right?

Oh, possibly.  I think the idea has merit, but I haven't had the time to put any real thought into it.