Author Topic: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 250299 times)

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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1160 on: November 07, 2008, 11:38:50 AM »
Well, consider this:
You, a medium-sized human are grappling Fluffy, a tiny-sized cat.

Step 1: Grab fluffy with a touch attack
Step 2: She tries to claw your face off to get you to release her.
You win; you are now grappling fluffy.
End of Turn

Fluffy's turn:
Fluffy has the following options:
1. Try to escape
2. Try to claw your face off

If Fluffy tries to escape, she's making either an escape artist check to wriggle free of your grip or a grapple check to claw your hands up until you release her.

If Fluffy tries to claw your face off she's effectively making a grapple check to get to and claw off your face. That sounds like climbing on an opponent.

EoT

Your turn.
You want to climb on top of Fluffy and pound her face in. Sounds like a (really easy) grapple check.
Then you want to grab her by the scruff of the neck so that you can throw her, like a weapon, at her owner who is really fucking pissed at you now. Getting her by the scruff of the neck -- grapple check at -X (where X is large) because she's trying to claw your hand off and you're aiming for a not-easy-to-grab target when in grapple with a cat. Then you have her contained and you're one-handing her -- this is improved grab! Then you throw her at Sally, her increasingly pissed owner. Fluffy does damage as a 10-lb. object made of flailing claws; something like 2d4.

EoT.

Later: Fluffy has plotted her revenge and initiates grapple with your foot. Unbeknownst to you, Dr. Utonium has spilled some Chemical X into Fluffy's water dish and she now has a strength score of 56. Oh, shit.
Fluffy grabs your foot and rears up, lifting you off the ground bodily. (Improved Grapple check!)

Invisible Grapple
She then jumps, does a flip in the air and slams you to the ground. (Stop, drop and roll!)
You are now Prone, crushed under the powerful throw of a measly cat. (And probably dazed and confused by being bodyslammed by a cat.)

So what did this take for a cat to turn into Mighty Mouse? Well, assuming you have a strength of 10 and BAB 0 for a grapple mod of +0.  The cat, being tiny, has a size mod of -8 and strength of 56 for strength mod of +23 for a net grapple mod of +15.

If stop drop and roll imposes a -15 to your grapple check but leaves the opponent prone in the square and both of you out of the grapple then a cat needs a 56 strength (!) to have a 50-50 chance of doing that to you!

I think the -8 net was pretty significant there and required a ridiculous cat to hit it.

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1161 on: November 07, 2008, 01:58:26 PM »
That makes a certain amount of twisted and  :lmao worthy sense.

However, would Fluffy sitting on me make any meaningful difference? No.

Would me sitting on Fluffy do so? Yes.

That sort of stuff is still Size and/or weight dependent.
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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1162 on: November 07, 2008, 02:03:58 PM »
However, would Fluffy sitting on me make any meaningful difference? No.
Would me sitting on Fluffy do so? Yes.
In a static sense, yes it would matter.  However, combat is not static.  The assumption is you're both trying to outmaneuver each other.  For example, look at any good K1 or UFC fight.  Guys that can easily lift 300+ lbs have trouble when the 180 lb. monster gets them in the right hold -- that's a pin.  It's not a factor of load; it's a factor of leverage.  Leverage is a mixture of strength and weight.  The size penalty covers the weight aspect and the strength bonus covers the strength.

I'm dead certain that with a strength score of 56 Fluffy can easily wrap my arms and legs in such a way that she can sit on me and keep me immobile and in pain.

Or, look at it this way: Consider Fluffy before the Chemical X -- She has a strength of 3 for a mod of -4 and a size of Tiny for a size mod of -8, so she sits at -12 to my +0.  If we give even a -8 to attempts to pick up an opponent outright then it's impossible for Fluffy to pick me up.  I purport the penalty is larger though.  (Improved grab says -20.)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 02:06:22 PM by ZeroSum »

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1163 on: November 07, 2008, 02:06:33 PM »
No kidding. However, me sitting on her, as in "I sit on the cat." (in the sense "I sit on the chair")...unless Fluffy is strong enough to push me off before being crushed by my weight...

Poor Fluffy.

Plenty of other nasty things involving "sitting" and such, but that is a factor when dealing with something immensely bigger than yourself.

On human scale, it isn't likely to come up. But if you fight a dragon, it might.

Note: I think we agree on 90% of cases. Well, maybe not that many. Its only the cases of much, much bigger vs. you cases. (or much, much smaller)

Which thusly brings up a problem. How big an opponent should a Medium sized opponent be able to deal with on potentially roughly equal terms, and how big an opponent is just too big that even if he is strong and skilled, size has become an obstacle (not just a difficulty mod)?

"None." seems excessive. "Huge" may be excessive too.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 02:14:00 PM by Elennsar »
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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1164 on: November 07, 2008, 02:12:24 PM »
Well, to sit on Fluffy is effectively a grapple and a pin.

My contention is that a strength score of 56 (Which is pretty ungodly - she can run at full speed carrying nearly 5 tons) makes it nearly impossible for you to do that to her.

On the contrary, her ungodly high strength score (which lets her exert a force of 5 tons easily) would let her pin you by binding your limbs.

Basically, my contention is that in a fight you don't just sit on someone.  If that were true a sumo wrestler would beat any thug on the street by just sitting on him.  What your real goal is is to pin the opponent, where the result could be, if you relied on weight (which is a factor of size category (which gives a bonus to grapple)) sitting on him.

So sitting on someone isn't the action you take; pinning is.
"Pinning" someone isn't the result; sitting on them is (or jointlocking or chokeholding or armbarring, etc.).

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1165 on: November 07, 2008, 02:15:46 PM »
Let me put it this way.

I weigh 250 pounds, give or take.

Fluffy weighs <10.

I sit on Fluffy. Fluffy is crushed beneath my massive weight.

Same as if you put enough rocks on someone's chest.

Yes, in general, you don't just sit on someone. But if you can, which a dragon can do to a human, it is pretty sucktastic.

This isn't about Strength. Fluffy is too frail, not too weak.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 02:18:15 PM by Elennsar »
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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1166 on: November 07, 2008, 02:18:55 PM »
Fluffy weighs <10.
I sit on Fluffy. Fluff is crushed beneath my massive weight.
Well if it's the regular 3 strength Fluffy, sure.  But the 56 strength beast?  That thing can lift almost 5 tons and then take off at a dead run.  (5 tons is about 1% more than light load for a tiny creature with a strength of 56.)

Actually, all my load calculations are off.  Fluffy can pick up even more because she's a damn quadruped!  (Almost 7.5 tons for light load.)

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1167 on: November 07, 2008, 02:20:41 PM »
Not necessarily. Even if Fluffy has the muscles to lift that much, the crushing damage I do by sitting on Fluffy might be a problem.

Assuming Fluffy doesn't lift me in a way that it becomes "Fluffy is carrying me", in which case yeah, Strength 56 Fluffy can take off at a dead run.
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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1168 on: November 07, 2008, 02:23:27 PM »
So you're contention is, honestly, that a creature with a score of 56 just folds under your massive weight?

You've just raised the CR of every dragon to ridiculous. The only tactic dragons need now against anything with a corporeal form is "I sit on you. You die."

56!?  Do you realize the magnitude of that STR?  Fluffy can kick a bus out of her way.  She can push over a traincar.  She can punch through Chuck Norris for chrissake!  Her roundhouse kick does enough damage to kill 99% of humans on Earth in one hit and she only misses 5% of the time.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 02:25:11 PM by ZeroSum »

veekie

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1169 on: November 07, 2008, 02:30:13 PM »
Fluffy weighs <10.
I sit on Fluffy. Fluff is crushed beneath my massive weight.
Well if it's the regular 3 strength Fluffy, sure.  But the 56 strength beast?  That thing can lift almost 5 tons and then take off at a dead run.  (5 tons is about 1% more than light load for a tiny creature with a strength of 56.)

Actually, all my load calculations are off.  Fluffy can pick up even more because she's a damn quadruped!  (Almost 7.5 tons for light load.)

Heck, Fluffy there could run full tilt while carrying a house on her back.
But again, another consideration, inherent ability scores, large creatures are overwhelmingly both stronger and larger, which gives higher strength scores to beat as well as greater leverage to overcome.

If you actually looked at the numbers, before you become a superhero who can throw Godzilla by the tail, it's impossible for all intents and purposes to successfully grapple anything 2 sizes more than you without magical assist or exotic trainings.

Side Question: Should there be a size bonus on escape artist checks to escape grapples? Stands to reason that while smaller creatures have difficulty grappling as an equal, wriggling out of grip is much easier.
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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1170 on: November 07, 2008, 02:32:33 PM »
You're overlooking the obvious response:

"I get the fuck out of his way."

Sitting on Fluffy may be an "easy" kill if I manage to sit on Fluffy. But Fluffy the Actual Housecat is going to be able to get out of my way most of the time.

So, unless Fluffy is strong (as in sturdy) enough to endure my massive weight, then Fluffy being able to lift several times my body weight is not as helpful in being able to endure the pressure of that much weight.

So a dragon would be -able- to squish you like a bug, if it could make the attack, but my "Get the hell out of the way" roll would be pretty good.

At least, me as in someone who shouldn't be paste. Me as in this typist not being one of those beings.

Veekie: Not counting the shitload of +X to Grapple things you can get by being a better grappler.

Some might say that's "exotic training", but its not so exotic as to be exotic for adventurers, even if it is "exotic' for Joe Shmoe who never leaves his village.

I don't mind a 20th level fighter being able to face (some) 20th level things with a 50-50 chance of success, some with a 90-10, or 75-25, and some with 25-75.

That's goooooood.

But "immensely large and strong monsters" should not be in the 75-25 range in a contest of strength. Not ones of your level, certainly.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 02:35:47 PM by Elennsar »
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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1171 on: November 07, 2008, 02:38:15 PM »
"I get the fuck out of his way."

Sitting on Fluffy may be an "easy" kill if I manage to sit on Fluffy. But Fluffy the Actual Housecat is going to be able to get out of my way most of the time.
Well, there's two issues:

1. Do you, or do you not, claim that if you, a human with a strength of 10 and no combat training, were to attempt to sit on Fluffy, a housecat with the ungodly strength of 56, and she, instead of merely fleeing were to try to fight you off, you would almost certainly win because of your massive relative weight alone?

2. Do you agree with me that it makes more sense from an abstraction-of-combat standpoint to see "Pin" as the action you take and "Elennsar sitting on the housecat" or "the housecat armbar's Elennsar" to be the result of that action?


Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1172 on: November 07, 2008, 02:43:24 PM »
1) If she let me sit on her and apply the advantage of having outweighing her by 240 pounds, I think she should be screwed.

However, I think assuming Fluffy would let me do that is moronic.

2) As I don't like abstracting combat that far, no, I don't. Particularly since:

Me SITTING on Fluffy is not a move involving any skill on my part.

Fluffy has to evade (not that hard) my "attack" If she does, I hit the floor and am now sitting on the floor. Not a good combat position!

I'm not big enough to stomp on Fluffy to any great effect, so that's out (at best, it would be a clumsy kick.)

Now, Elennsar on Zero and Fluffy armbaring Elennsar might both be essentially "pinning", but "I am bigger than you. Squish." is not even a Grapple check. Its just a (bad) use of a standard action (?) by me and Fluffy getting a Reflex save with a bonus vs. DC X.
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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1173 on: November 07, 2008, 02:48:28 PM »
1. So you're saying that a creature that can bench press a semi can't stand to have you sit on her?  Do you realize that this is your claim?  Do you realize how ridiculous that is?

2. Why is sitting on someone not an example of pinning?  I see kids do it to each other all the time?  Do you choose between "I stab the orc between the third and fourth rib" versus "I slash at the orc's exposed thigh" when making an attack action?  No, you attack the orc, and the result is some damage because you either stabbed him in the chest or slashed his thigh.

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1174 on: November 07, 2008, 02:52:29 PM »
I am saying that "I am strong enough to lift" 200 pounds does not mean that if you put 200 pounds of something on my chest and I can't lift it off that that is 200 pounds of painful (and possibly deadly) weight.

Now, if Fluffy -can-, then Fluffy can and will laugh at me.

2) Because sitting on someone roughly your size and sitting on someone much smaller than you (an ogre sitting on a six year old, as opposed to a ten year old on the six year old) are applying different amounts of force.

As for "I stab the orc..."

Well, hit locations/called shots as a good/bad/whatever thing aside, that is what I would be doing IC.


In brief, I think we agree what Fluffy's response to "Elennsar tries to sit on Fluffy" would be. We're just disagreeing whether or not I could crush her by superior weight.

I'm not sure how Fluffy (Strength 56 or not) could lift me, incidently. My mental artist is refusing to draw pictures.

That's not a strength thing. Just imagining a cat lifting weights (however heavy) is going blank. For no good reason.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 02:55:17 PM by Elennsar »
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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1175 on: November 07, 2008, 03:02:46 PM »
Elennsar, your advantage in applying your weight, e.g. sitting, is reflected in the massive grapple bonus you have on the cat based on size. Fluffy's ability to redirect a truck by pawing it, is reflected in it's two digit strength bonus to grapple. You have leverage, but Fluffy here delivers enough kinetic energy upon contact to crush a stone wall to rubble with a scratch.

Going by simple physics, the torque you can exert is a simple matter of force x leverage. You have the leverage, it counts for a lot, Fluffy has no leverage, but has enough raw force to simply overwhelm your leverage. That and Flurry shatters bones by tapping them. So, assuming physics matters at all in a game world construct involving levels of force that would normally be seen only in a very high powered nano sized electromagnet, it works perfectly well.
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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1176 on: November 07, 2008, 03:04:44 PM »
This isn't about applying that weight. This is the simple scenario of dropping a 250 pound weight from 0-5 feet on Fluffy's back that happens to be me.

As for physics: If it matters at all here, it should matter elsewhere, too. Kind of rediculous for it only to apply to bizzare situations like Strength 56 housecats.
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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1177 on: November 07, 2008, 03:05:27 PM »
But Fluffy's not strong enough to lift 200 lbs.; she's strong enough to lift 20000.  There's a couple of orders of magnitude in there.

2. Right, someone smaller has a smaller grapple check so it's easier to not get hurt by their attempt to pin you by sitting on you.

If you do everything as you do in real life then your character will utterly fail at combat above second level since you don't have the combat expertise of even a second level Fighter. That's why there's this great idea called "abstraction".  Abstraction is this wonderful technology that lets you say things like, "I know I want my character to attack this orc, but I don't know how to swing a sword, so I'll roll some dice and the dice will tell me whether I successfully attacked the orc or not.  Then I can just describe how I succeeded or failed, preferably in a reasonably realistic manner!" or, as in this example, "I know that I want my character to try to pin this [enemy], but I don't know in real life what the most effective way of grappling is, so I'll just roll some dice and then describe the outcome.  If [enemy] is far smaller than me perhaps I simply sat on it.  If [enemy] is far larger than me then my only option would've been digit manipulation and limb binding."

Abstraction doesn't remove detail from the game, just the mechanics.  Then you put the detail back in in the form of flavor.  That way you have a simple, easy to use system but can still describe a rich and detailed world.

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1178 on: November 07, 2008, 03:11:15 PM »
I believe it's been mentioned that if you sit on someone, you're already pinning.

So let me throw a little bit on this.

Consider the idea of a needle poking you REALLY hard and painfully at some leverage spot on your back (like, say, mid-back, where it'd be harder to reach). That's what I think is a decent comparison to how a human grapples a dragon. Why bother with real life implications?

Elennsar, D&D doesn't take weight into consideration except when we're talking about falling and flinging stuff. The grapple mechanics do not consider weight to offer a bonus or penalty whether you're heavier than your opponent or not, so there's really no point in discussing whether or not one can wrestle 56 STR Fluffy based on weight. Size and Str mods matter. Weight doesn't.

Further, if we consider a 20th level Fighter with Art of War, he still has to roll something ten points better than any critter Colossal size to wrestle it. So what's the big deal?
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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1179 on: November 07, 2008, 03:16:56 PM »
Abstraction too far makes what you say really happened meaningless. Take hit points.

Do they reflect being able to roll with the punches? Being able to soak up serious damage? Being lucky? Favored by the Gods? Dodging so you weren't even hit to begin with?

Too abstract. You wind up with a bunch of entirely unrelated things at work. Being lucky doesn't make sense to get depleted. Your luck won't last forever, but there's no steady drain on it as you get "hit", whatever that means, over and over again. Favor of the Gods? So God is less willing to save my bacon from the next fireball after saving it from one? I suppose that makes sense. Sort of. Rolling with the punches? How does that get depleted? Am I getting tired? In which case, shouldn't there be fatigue penalties at some point?

Etc. Detail obsession is not good, but treating details as "well you can just describe it" is not either. Its slightly more important whether I got hit in the arm vs. the leg as opposed to having blonde versus brown hair in any situation the game is supposedly supposed to represent. Saying "Um, well, you got hit in the leg." when there is no difference at all doesn't ring right.

Similarly, while yes, I might not know how to grapple very effectively, which is why the game describes what you can do: Pin, sit, joint lock, bind a limb, whatever.

I may not know how to swing a sword well, but I can certainly say "I aim for the arm" even as a 0-1 level Expert.

I can say "I aim for the head". Whatever.

No need to abstract that.

As for Fluffy and lifting: Yes, if Fluffy can lift me, then I'm a mere 250 pounds when the cat can lift 20,000. Go Fluffy the Fantastic, go!

But if Fluffy can't lift my weight (the weight is so that it can't be budged)...that's 250 pounds of pain.

And that is the problem. Lifting isn't just "are you strong enough".

Kuro: Because we bother with real life implications involving breathing, eating, and drinking. We may assume "those needs are met without the player having to specifically say so", but they do exist as things the characters have to meet.

As for weight: It should. Even if only as "Twice as heavy: +2" say.

As for said Fighter: Add Improved Grapple. Add Clever Wrestling. Now its four points better.
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