Author Topic: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 250296 times)

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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1140 on: November 06, 2008, 09:24:29 PM »
Here's my ideas:
Grapple check at -2 per weapon size category difference from (what's below light? Dagger would be here)->Light->1H->2H.
Technically, nothing is below light in 3.5.  They did away with further designations after 3.0.


Just out of curiosity. For purposes of this, we're keeping Dwarves as "Medium", right?
Dwarves are medium.  They just move like small creatures in light or no armor.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1141 on: November 06, 2008, 09:25:19 PM »
I asked if we were keeping that, not what PreProject Rules said.

I'm assuming that means "We are."
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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1142 on: November 06, 2008, 09:35:49 PM »
Too unfamiliar with Mighty Mouse to say. Link if you have one.
4:50 into it.

Quote
The problem is that it is not balanced for you to be able to pin him as easily as someone his own size.
Particularly not with size modifiers as they are.
Then change the size modifiers. Make size mods count as x2 for pinning.  Make them exponential to the size difference.  Do something right instead of doing nothing.

Quote
And what do you mean by "physical presence" if its not height or volume?
Swarms, for example, aren't solid masses of bug, but they can be gargantuan.  They displace a small volume but they take up and control a lot of space.

Edit:lolifailattypingtodayforsomereason
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 09:42:02 PM by ZeroSum »

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1143 on: November 06, 2008, 09:39:13 PM »
Quote
Then change the size modifiers. Make size mods count as x2 for pinning.  Make them exponential to the size difference.  Do something write instead of doing nothing.

I'm treating this as a pun.  :lmao

Point being, it has to be done. And if you are modifying it, then it is your responsibility to at least suggest such modifications.

What are our existing "effects being larger" rules? Just the general "going from large to huge" and the like as well as "+/- to AC/attack rolls".

Quote
Swarms, for example, aren't solid masses of bug, but they can be gargantuan.  They displace a small volume but they take up and control a lot of space.

True and reasonable. But does a Dwarf control an identical amount of space to a 7'6" human?

I acknowledge at some point we have to simplify for ease of play, I'm just not sure D&D has the break points set up right.

Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1144 on: November 06, 2008, 09:45:43 PM »
Point being, it has to be done. And if you are modifying it, then it is your responsibility to at least suggest such modifications.
My initial suggestion was "throw away the limit and just let size modifiers keep track of it." You said "that makes no sense" without any mechanical backing. I handwaved away the fine-tuning because, surprise, we're not at a stage where we can fine-tune yet.
Quote
I acknowledge at some point we have to simplify for ease of play, I'm just not sure D&D has the break points set up right.
You mean for the different size categories?  Funny story: I'm in a linguistics class and we're talking about words with relative value such as, for example, sizes.  What's the example written down in the book from 1986?  Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, Gargantuan.  I think D&D's on the right track.

Quote
But does a Dwarf control an identical amount of space to a 7'6" human?
Does a 7'6" human control an identical amount of space as a 5'3" human?

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1145 on: November 06, 2008, 09:50:56 PM »
It makes no sense to let someone be able to do X "and let the size modifiers take care of it" if you can get HUGE bonuses that make a mere +4 (or even +12) irrelevant. Particularly if we keep stuff like "Clever Wrestling" that gives you a bonus (forget if it is +2 or +4) per size category bigger your opponent is.

Quote
You mean for the different size categories?  Funny story: I'm in a linguistics class and we're talking about words with relative value such as, for example, sizes.  What's the example written down in the book from 1986?  Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, Gargantuan.  I think D&D's on the right track.

That's not the problem. I mean in terms of "Medium: 4'-8'", say.

Still, good to know the words are well picked.

Quote
Does a 7'6" human control an identical amount of space as a 5'3" human?

That is the problem. Two feet (IRL) makes a difference. I am not sure how significant it is. I am also not sure how we can measure how much makes a difference without measuring each inch (or less), which is clearly absurb.

But having a range of four feet (in height) be exactly the same seems too broad on human scale. It might be true that for something already about 60' high, whether that is 57', 63', or 59' 10" is irrelevant.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1146 on: November 06, 2008, 09:59:22 PM »
Well, there's already an effort to scale down some of the numbers in general, I believe, but, again, fine-tuning and not being ready for it.

So you want what, thirty sizes? That'd be too cumbersome to play with. Plus, what you should be arguing is that a Wizard with no training controls the same space in combat as a trained soldier when they both have a sword.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1147 on: November 06, 2008, 09:59:37 PM »
Now, once we get these climbing rules set for grappling, what options should we give the larger creatures?  Even if you're some super epic grappler, larger creatures have certain advantages if the manage to beat your grapple check.

I think they could do things like slam into a wall, trying to do damage so someone small hanging on.

If they win a grapple check, can they simply pull the smaller opponent off and throw them?  Perhaps this would be two attack rolls (one to win the grapple, one to do the throw).

Could they simply stop-drop-and-roll?  They could spend a standard action to fall prone and try to crush the opponent.  The opponent would have the option to simply release the grapple.  Maybe they have to make a Reflex save or suffer overrun damage, and end up prone in one of the creature's squares.

Any other ideas?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1148 on: November 06, 2008, 10:06:47 PM »
Quote
So you want what, thirty sizes? That'd be too cumbersome to play with. Plus, what you should be arguing is that a Wizard with no training controls the same space in combat as a trained soldier when they both have a sword.

Not really, no. But I would like there to be a difference between "short, tall, and average" within each size category. If you're facing something more than two size categories bigger or smaller than you however, assume both sides are average, it doesn't matter whether a Huge creature is on the big end or little when when you're a human or a dwarf or a Goliath.

Robby: Any or better yet, all, sound good.

And yes, two attack rols. One to grab someone, one to fling them.


Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1149 on: November 06, 2008, 10:07:42 PM »
Well, to start, I don't like rules that are of the form: Since your physical quality is [foo] you're only allowed this set of options, hence why I would throw out the gross requirement of one size larger to begin with.

How about something like this:
[Opposed Grapple Check to Damage]
If you win you get to do damage as a natural attack. You may substitute any one of your natural attacks for this including unarmed strike for humanoids and a monk's unarmed damage for monks.

The following effects are cumulative:
If you win by 5 or more you may add +1d6 damage.
If you win by 10 or more you may shake off your opponent from the grapple, forcing him to release the grapple and dealing +1d6.
If you win by 15 or more you may knock him down as well, forcing him to fall prone in the square he landed in.

The reason I didn't have it so you choose and get a modifier is because then it's too risky to try to do something.  I think it's better to say "I attack" and have how well you attack be based on the result.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1150 on: November 06, 2008, 10:08:57 PM »
I'm fine with the nine categories, plus Powerful Build can be used to approximate "half" sizes.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1151 on: November 06, 2008, 10:10:01 PM »
Other than not agreeing with the dislike (mind saying why?), I like the list.

That way, a guy who is a great grappler will reliably get a better result over a worse grappler (well, subject to the dice cooperating), but it becomes "how well you did impacts what you can do" which is nice and simple.

Not sure on exact numbers, but that's fine tuning. Looks good a at glance.

Robby: The problem is that Dwarves are kind of more like a Small Race with Powerful Build rather than a Medium race.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1152 on: November 06, 2008, 10:12:41 PM »
Robby: The problem is that Dwarves are kind of more like a Small Race with Powerful Build rather than a Medium race.
I suppose that's one way to look at it.  Either way, medium without PB or small with PB ends up with the same grapple mod.  I'd just leave it as-is.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1153 on: November 06, 2008, 10:20:16 PM »
Other than not agreeing with the dislike (mind saying why?), I like the list.
Because modifiers and DCs should indicate what's feasible.  That's why they've been genericized to that level.  If I want to make Mighty Mouse I understand that I've just put myself at a great physical disadvantage, but given enough specialization and levels I don't see why a level 258 Anthropomorphic Mouse should be unable to toss around a CR 20 Dragon.  That's like saying that because a god is size Diminutive I can just stomp on him.

Quote
That way, [on average] a guy who is a great grappler will reliably get a better result over a worse grappler
Which is a good thing, yes.  (And ftfy.)

Quote
becomes "how well you did impacts what you can do" which is nice and simple.
It's more an abstraction of your choice.  You know that you want to hurt the guy and you know that if you hurt the guy really well you can do a lot more to him.  And if you just wanted to get the guy off then there should be a section of [Escape a Grapple] that includes, with a large enough victory of defeat, "You may throw him within 10' and he takes 1d6 damage and falls prone."

Quote
Robby: The problem is that Dwarves are kind of more like a Small Race with Powerful Build rather than a Medium race.
Good point but it's really only speed where Dwarves tend to lag behind humans. They wear clothing that's approximately human-sized, just a little shorter; they eat and drink in human-sized (or larger) portions. They carry human-sized weapons and read from human-sized books and live in human-sized (or larger) grand underground cities.  I think human-sized with a speed penalty approximates that well.

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1154 on: November 06, 2008, 10:28:55 PM »
Gods being another story, I agree and disagree. Some things should be "you're too small or too big".

But even if you can't do wrap your hands around me and choke me when you're the size of my pinky, you can still kick me in the eyeball.

Ftfy?

Quote
It's more an abstraction of your choice.  You know that you want to hurt the guy and you know that if you hurt the guy really well you can do a lot more to him.  And if you just wanted to get the guy off then there should be a section of [Escape a Grapple] that includes, with a large enough victory of defeat, "You may throw him within 10' and he takes 1d6 damage and falls prone."

Yeah. Just saying that "great result = can do better stuff" (with this being what that means) broke down into nice "doing better by this much means your 'better stuff' improved by this much" increments.

Quote
Good point but it's really only speed where Dwarves tend to lag behind humans. They wear clothing that's approximately human-sized, just a little shorter; they eat and drink in human-sized (or larger) portions. They carry human-sized weapons and read from human-sized books and live in human-sized (or larger) grand underground cities.  I think human-sized with a speed penalty approximates that well.

Reach, if D&D handled it better (more in depth), would also suffer. A dwarf with a longsword has a reach closer to a human with a shortsword than a human with a longsword.

Now, I know that D&D doesn't break down reach like that, but I think it should. Seperate project?

Otherwise, yeah. A 4'5" Dwarf vs. a 5' human is really not that substantial. Its the "not that different from a 6'3" human either" that starts pushing it too far.

A dwarf cannot use a (human sized) longbow. That's one area where "too short" ought to limit them. They're just not tall enough.

Only a few cases like that...I am not sure if stating "this is an exception to the 'can use human sized weapons'" would be worth the attention or not. (I'd be willing to look over the weapon list we have and see if anyone feels doing it is worth it at all)

But they shouldn't be ignored just because "they never come up". They can. Whether or not the return on the investment of noting they do is worth it is another thing.

On the whole, I would prefer (ideally) Dwarves as Medium (short), rather than Small.

But Medium (short) or any other Size (Short) would take some doing. It wouldn't be a reverse Powerful Build flaw.

I'll see if I can drum up anything and post it elsewhere. If it seems worth using, you're welcome to it. If not, ignore.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1155 on: November 06, 2008, 10:34:24 PM »
But even if you can't do wrap your hands around me and choke me when you're the size of my pinky, you can still kick me in the eyeball.
I could Falcon punch it until you couldn't speak or breath though.

Quote
Ftfy?
Fixed that for you -- your comment about the dice cooperating is unnecessary if you just assume over the long range.

Quote
Reach, if D&D handled it better (more in depth), would also suffer. A dwarf with a longsword has a reach closer to a human with a shortsword than a human with a longsword.
Do we really want to deal with reach between a longsword and a shortsword when we're already abstracting combat out to 5% increments?

Quote
A dwarf cannot use a (human sized) longbow. That's one area where "too short" ought to limit them. They're just not tall enough.

Looks kinda like a dwarf with a human-sized longbow there.

And with that, quittin' time -- going home and doing some homework.

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1156 on: November 06, 2008, 10:41:39 PM »
Right. But that would be a "you may attack" rather than "you may grab".

Quote
Fixed that for you -- your comment about the dice cooperating is unnecessary if you just assume over the long range.

Well, the point is that at any given point, they may or may not. +20 when you roll a 1 turns out sour compared to +10 guy who rolled a 15.

Quote
Do we really want to deal with reach between a longsword and a shortsword when we're already abstracting combat out to 5% increments?

Yeah. But I speak as a detail lover.

Quote
Looks kinda like a dwarf with a human-sized longbow there.

And with that, quittin' time -- going home and doing some homework.

Dai-kyu are constructed differently than the D&D longbow, which is based on the Welsh/English longbow.

Now you could argue that the stat difference is meaningless, but then you get into things like how you can use a dai-kyu on horseback but not the Welsh bow.

Now, if you say a dwarf would use the dai-kyu, I'd be the very last person to argue with you, assuming the issue of "Dwarves use bows?!" was put aside.

May your homework be speedily completed so more fun things can be done!

PS: Kudos for the pictures, didn't intend to overlook that but sort of did.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

veekie

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1157 on: November 07, 2008, 08:08:18 AM »
Option idea for the grapple, Wield Opponent. Exactly what it says.
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[spoiler]
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Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
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[/spoiler]

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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1158 on: November 07, 2008, 09:48:06 AM »
Well, to start, I don't like rules that are of the form: Since your physical quality is [foo] you're only allowed this set of options, hence why I would throw out the gross requirement of one size larger to begin with.
I can see this approach if we were to get rid of certain options all together.  If we keep certain options, I think they only work if there is a large enough size difference.  At this point, it becomes an entirely different kind of grapple.

The whole "climbing" rules only work if you're small enough compared to your opponent.

The stop-drop-and-role approach only works if you're large enough to hurt your opponent by sheer weight.

I suppose anyone can try to slam their opponent into a wall.  That doesn't need to be based on size differences.  This would only work if your feet were on the ground (or you had some other means of moving, like flight).

Option idea for the grapple, Wield Opponent. Exactly what it says.
Awesome.  What would that entail?  I'd assume your opponent needs to be within your light weight limit.  If you hit him against an object, he takes damage as an unarmed attack.  If you hit him into someone, they both take damage as an unarmed attack.

---

All in all, ZeroSum might be onto something with the simplified rules.  I still think sizes should apply somewhat, but I have to think it though better.  Any more progress I make on this (or any further discussion really) should probably move to the combat & rules thread.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1159 on: November 07, 2008, 10:47:56 AM »
Two quick points:

1) A 20th level Fighter would have an additional +6 to his grapple modifier (on top of BAB and Strength). A Huge creature gets +8 from the size difference alone. In other words: even if we allow the Fighter20 to grapple a Colossal dragon, he'll still be facing a +10 bonus to grapple that he doesn't have. As far as balance goes, that's strictly fine in my book.

2) At present, the only way to "Wield an Opponent" is to have an Improved Grapple monster ability, and that only allows you to mantain the grapple at a -20 penalty. It doesn't allow you to bitch-slap people using other people. (The Grey Render has it, for example.)
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!