D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[ZeroSum]

I'm not sure it fits to have Grappling (as in what two grapplers here on Terra do) and grappling as in I-climb-on-you be related.

What do they have in common?

Okay, so we'll have a new special attack named "Fugologhth". Performing a fugologhth maneuver is done first by making a touch attack to grab hold of your target. Then, you make an opposed fugologhth check to see if you can overpower your target. A fugologhth check is d20 + BAB + fugologhth modifiers. Fugologhth modifiers include strength modifier and a special size modifier of +4 per positive size category and -4 per negative size category. If you win this check you are now in fugologhth with the target which requires you to move into his space. Because you are climbing all over him he is unable to leave his space as you impede his movement, unless he can defeat you in a fugologhth check. Also, you may make a fugologhth check to deal damage. Since this damage is a function of your ability to climb all over your opponent it is equivalent to an unarmed damage check. You may make an attack roll at -4 to instead use a weapon.

Need I go on?

[Elennsar]

No, but you need to address how "I climb on top of him" should involve the same mechanics as "I bear hug him attempting to actually crush his ribs."

That's my point. "Grappling" is different than "Tripping" which is different than "disarming".

Its not just different words all going back to the same thing.

[Midnight_v]

No, but you need to address how "I climb on top of him" should involve the same mechanics as "I bear hug him attempting to actually crush his ribs."

That's my point. "Grappling" is different than "Tripping" which is different than "disarming".

Its not just different words all going back to the same thing.

The fact that he could potentially kill me is not in dispute. The fact that he wouldn't be "strangling" me (with the rules for strangling people and what you roll to strangle and what I roll to resist and so on) is.

Grappling is a specific action in game terms. Not just anything that could be called grappling by any author ever.

Uhmm... do you understand grappling? A strangle, chokehold, leglock, wristlock, camel cluch, OPEN HANDED FRONT CHOKE, toe hold... all grappling.

He would be strangling you only if you could not pry him off.
His grip on your neck, opposed by your attept to remove him from your neck... is a grapple.
Him cutting off your air is just a secondary effect of where he's grappling you.

Damn... this is quite humorous.

[Elennsar]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple

Whatever is not covered as "Grappling" in the rules is not "Grappling" in D&D. It may be "Grappling" if you ask a wrestler, it may be "grappling" if you ask someone who uses Judo, but it is not what the game defines as grappling and may or may not be best represented with the same mechanics in a house rule that adds actions that are not listed in the SRD.

But "because its called a grappling move (somewhere else) means that it should use the same mechanics as a grapple check in game" is not necessarily valid.

What's so hard to understand about that?

The grip of a man the size of my pinky on my neck is not significant enough to count for any game effects, whether he has Strength 100 or 1. He simply cannot do it. I am too large.

[ZeroSum]

Uh, what part of fugologhth is at odds with climbing on someone and attacking them?

1. You grab hold (so you can climb on them).
2. You make a check to overpower them (so they don't throw you off).
3. You deal damage by overpowering them or attack at a penalty (since it's hard to attack them as you try to hold on).
4. You impede their movement (because you're hanging on them -- maybe this could be size-based, which should, fairly, be the same for grappling in this instance).
5. You and they are easier to attack (because you're manhandling them to stay on and you two are interactive with each other mostly to the exclusion of others).

[Elennsar]

The part where you can use a weapon other than a light weapon while climbing on them and where there's no reason that me standing on a dragon's back means "I'm focused only on the dragon'.

Nor should it impede their movement.

Hell, its not even necessarily hard to attack while holding on.

And "damage by overpowering them" wouldn't really work...I can't get a grip. My arms are too small, not too weak, here.

So it may be similar in some ways, but not all.

[Kuroimaken]

Okay, since I helped start this hornet's nest, here's a few thoughts.

What was that game with the guy with the kukris on chains. He was grappling out all kinds of giant beast and thats kind the thing I"m talking about.

You're probably talking about God of War (which is the first time I have ever seen an emo spartan, by the way).

Granted, Kratos largely used the environment around him to facilitate his grappling - and he did happen to use the chains on his weapons to actually wrap it around that big hydra's neck on the first level.

That doesn't change the fact he was grappling it. Hercules performed a similar feat while he did his 12 labors (though, admittedly, with a slightly smaller monster). Momotaro killed an oni with a needle, and he was size Diminutive, for crying out loud.

I like the idea of making the Barbarian the semi-unstoppable charging force from heck. I wouldn't give him outright immunity to mind effects, though - probably a really high bonus. Don't forget he's already got Improved Mettle in the rough draft.

As for what means the wizard has to stop the barbarian... are you fucking kidding? He can summon stuff outta his ass, he can rip the ground open beneath the Barbarian's feet, he can reverse gravity the bastitch, heck, he can do almost too much.

[Midnight_v]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple

Whatever is not covered as "Grappling" in the rules is not "Grappling" in D&D. It may be "Grappling" if you ask a wrestler, it may be "grappling" if you ask someone who uses Judo, but it is not what the game defines as grappling and may or may not be best represented with the same mechanics in a house rule that adds actions that are not listed in the SRD.

But "because its called a grappling move (somewhere else) means that it should use the same mechanics as a grapple check in game" is not necessarily valid.

What's so hard to understand about that?

The grip of a man the size of my pinky on my neck is not significant enough to count for any game effects, whether he has Strength 100 or 1. He simply cannot do it. I am too large.

Pinky, I thought we were talking about hand sized.
IS there anything to which a man equates it pinky?
Okay
To the pinky I point to "leeches" who are indeed making grapple checks to remain attatched to you each round.
Lampreys too.  
They've attatched themselves to you by the mouth.
Please don't make me scour every MM for an example of this. I promise I can find one.
It's all grappling and  a100 strength means I could keep a space shuttle from taking off by pullin it by a wheel the opposite way.

Though... really we're not going to budge each other on this are we.
I don't suppose you feel like conceeding the point?
...no?
Me niether.

[Midnight_v]

Okay, since I helped start this hornet's nest, here's a few thoughts.

What was that game with the guy with the kukris on chains. He was grappling out all kinds of giant beast and thats kind the thing I"m talking about.

You're probably talking about God of War (which is the first time I have ever seen an emo spartan, by the way).

Granted, Kratos largely used the environment around him to facilitate his grappling - and he did happen to use the chains on his weapons to actually wrap it around that big hydra's neck on the first level.

That doesn't change the fact he was grappling it. Hercules performed a similar feat while he did his 12 labors (though, admittedly, with a slightly smaller monster). Momotaro killed an oni with a needle, and he was size Diminutive, for crying out loud.

I like the idea of making the Barbarian the semi-unstoppable charging force from heck. I wouldn't give him outright immunity to mind effects, though - probably a really high bonus. Don't forget he's already got Improved Mettle in the rough draft.

As for what means the wizard has to stop the barbarian... are you fucking kidding? He can summon stuff outta his ass, he can rip the ground open beneath the Barbarian's feet, he can reverse gravity the bastitch, heck, he can do almost too much.

Damn kuroimaken you are so awesome I can now spell your name without looking
  +1

[Elennsar]

You might have been, I said pinky as an example of "realllllly too small.". I'm not sure hand sized would be big enough either.
 
As for "leeches"...a leech may be making a touch attack (I doubt it, armor gets in the way at least enough to mean "it has to attack the unarmored areas") to attach itself (and stay attached), but that doesn't mean they're "grappling" in the full meaning of the rules.

The point is, some things are not just "I am strong enough."

If my arms can't fit around a dragon's throat, I cannot get enough of a grip to do more than pinch the skin (or scales, rather. Assuming scales can be pinched, which is a seperate issue...presumably they can, however.)

I think you're missing my point. Size sometimes does matter. Strength sometimes matters more. But if you're the size of my pinky, you can be ten times stronger than me but not be able to grab well enough to grapple to begin with.

Kuro:

As for grappling heroes: Were they using the D&D grappling rules? Or were they doing something that was called "grappling" but which D&D calls Somethingelse?

As for the wizard,
Summoned stuff: Has to beat the barbarian in some way, so it becomes "can he summon something that can face the barbarian"?

Ripping the ground open: Only a problem if the barbarian can't just go "well, I make a Jump check" or "I activate my flying item" or "I make a Reflex save."

Reverse gravity...remind me what spell this is? (If it involves a save, the barbarian might well be able to ignore it.)

Still, yes. Just because the barbarian is an ubercharger and unstoppable in that sense doesn't mean he can't be stopped at all. But removing "obstacles and the surface of the ground itself." from things that can stop him leaves the list of "things that can stop him." much shorter than it was before. Maybe too much so.

[Midnight_v]

No.
I get your point.
I don't think its really correct.
Or even valid in "super-hero land"
I mean thats the thing really do physics apply or not really.

[ZeroSum]

The part where you can use a weapon other than a light weapon while climbing on

So we mod the grapple rules to allow it. HUGE FUCKING CHANGE OHNOES

them and where there's no reason that me standing on a dragon's back means "I'm focused only on the dragon'.

Right, because it's so easy to attack the gnome at the black dragon's feet when you're trying to stab it's fucking neck from eye level as the dragon rears up.

Nor should it impede their movement.

Hence why I suggested this might need some size mod attachment, but then again, so does grapple, which again means, OH NOES A HUGE FUCKING CHANGE.

Hell, its not even necessarily hard to attack while holding on.

Have you ever ridden a horse bareback? (No, that's not a joke... ) Imagine if it didn't want you there. So easy to stab him while you do that, right? In the real world most humans get tossed after about 6 seconds when they meet an appropriately-cr'd rodeo encounter. No joke there either.

And "damage by overpowering them" wouldn't really work...I can't get a grip. My arms are too small, not too weak, here.

Obviously you're impervious to such things as a pixie punching your fucking eye out or clawing its damn way into your jugular as you try to rip it off you. Oh wait, no, you just get a fucking size mod to the grapple check to prevent it.

So it may be similar in some ways, but not all.

And the ways it isn't are mostly things that should exist in grapple anyway.

[RobbyPants]

If we do decide to expand grapple to include climbing on opponents more than one size larger, how do we want to do it?

I'd like to change as little as possible, to keep from adding more problems than we solve.  You can probably climb up and deal unarmed damage with a single grapple check.  You need to climb to be able to do damage in the first place (so this is your only option when you initiate a grapple).  You cannot pin your opponent.  If you lose a grapple check, you fall into an adjacent square, taking the appropriate falling damage.  Should you be able to attack with a one-handed or two-handed weapon while climbing?  Could you actually use a light, edged weapon to help climb (like a dagger, handaxe, sickle, kama, etc)?

I think we can add this in without it being too hard to do.

Kuroimaken, good reference on God of War.  I was thinking about linking that finishing move video on YouTube.  Aw, hell, I'll do it anyway.

[Elennsar]

So we mod the grapple rules to allow it. HUGE FUCKING CHANGE OHNOES

Actually, yes. Grappling with a fellow medium sized creature shouldn't allow me to swing a greatsword while doing so.

Right, because it's so easy to attack the gnome at the black dragon's feet when you're trying to stab it's fucking neck from eye level as the dragon rears up.

Not really easy for him to attack me either. I'm not "distracted" anymore than if I was facing more than one foe at a time to begin with (which D&D doesn't consider a distraction unless you're flanked).

Have you ever ridden a horse bareback? (No, that's not a joke... ) Imagine if it didn't want you there. So easy to stab him while you do that, right? In the real world most humans get tossed after about 6 seconds when they meet an appropriately-cr'd rodeo encounter. No joke there either.

I'd probably be able to stab him even if he shook me off. Now, if you want to argue that I have a -4 to attack while he's tossing me, that I'd agree with. Even if I do get a grip.

Obviously you're impervious to such things as a pixie punching your fucking eye out or clawing its damn way into your jugular as you try to rip it off you. Oh wait, no, you just get a fucking size mod to the grapple check to prevent it.

That I'm not impervious to. But "I try and crush his throat with my arms" by the pixie...not unless its arms are longer than normal. Much longer.

Other things are possible. Encircling my throat is not one of them.

And the ways it isn't are mostly things that should exist in grapple anyway.

Should exist anyway? Yes. Should exist in this particular special attack? Not necessarily.

Robby: Yeah. Though if you use a light, edged weapon to help climb, asssuming you penetrate DR, you're doing damage just by climbing.

I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it is a factor.

We do not need to lump "climb on and attack opponent" with grappling just to make it an option anymore than we need to combine tripping with regular attacks to make it an option, it must be noted, too.

Improved Grapple (or any other "You get a bonus to all Grapple Checks") applying to climbing dragons and wrestling bears and wrestling fellow humans seems off.

[ZeroSum]

Here's my ideas:
Grapple check at -2 per weapon size category difference from (what's below light? Dagger would be here)->Light->1H->2H.

So light weapons are at -4, 2H at -8.
I think pinning is fine -- there are various digit locks in real life that require nothing more than grabbing a finger or two, which a human can do to a dragon whose finger is the size of the human.

Weapons that are likely to aid climbing a dragon should give +2 to grapple checks to grapple or hang on.

Falling damage should be based on size categories: +1d6 per size category above large, standard skill checks to negate some of it, creature acts like a wall for slow fall.

[Elennsar]

Pinning and a digit lock are not the same thing, though. Not to say they can't both be used as "I know grappling"...but "I locked his third claw" (measuring from the equivalant of the thumb as #1 on) and "I pinned him." wouldn't have quite the same effects.

Still, good stuff.

We don't want to eliminate digit locking of joints (though that might be a lot harder with a dragon's man sized joint, that's seperate from "impossible") or climbing up dragons to beat 'em up.

So any rules that make that possible without being twisted are good rules.

As usual, believable and cool > merely realistic. It has to be possible for Mighty Man to do it, but the fact no human on Earth can do it is only relevant so far as Mighty Man is limited the same way the rest of us are (for instance, how long his arms are is an issue, his Strength score might not be.)

Just out of curiosity. For purposes of this, we're keeping Dwarves as "Medium", right?

And similar.

I'm just checking because the size categories are sort of wonky there. I don't want to make Dwarves Small, I really don't, but it feels very odd that a 4' dwarf is the same size as a 6' human in all ways the game uses "size".

Wish there was a simple solution that didn't involve a massive rewrite. Something to muse on if anyone has thoughts, otherwise let's just note if we're keeping things as they are in terms of category and get back to it if we can, and ignore it if we can't.

[ZeroSum]

Well, what about Mighty Mouse?  Plenty of examples of him tossing people around bodily.

Fine, I grabbed his claw, climbed my way up his back while holding it until I had him in a chicken-wing and then Falcon Kicked his hand into his third rib, driving him to the ground.  There, I pinned the dragon.

Make a balanced rule then add flavor -- that's how you make a balanced system.

[ZeroSum]

Size isn't height or volume; it's physical presence.

[Elennsar]

Too unfamiliar with Mighty Mouse to say. Link if you have one.

The problem is that it is not balanced for you to be able to pin him as easily as someone his own size.

Particularly not with size modifiers as they are.

Nothing wrong with "Hero CAN take on larger opponents", but when "large" is a disadvantage, that's not necessarily a good thing (I don't think we're aiming for it being overall worse or better to be bigger than human versus smaller than human, are we?).

And what do you mean by "physical presence" if its not height or volume?

[veekie]

Here's my ideas:
Grapple check at -2 per weapon size category difference from (what's below light? Dagger would be here)->Light->1H->2H.

So light weapons are at -4, 2H at -8.
I think pinning is fine -- there are various digit locks in real life that require nothing more than grabbing a finger or two, which a human can do to a dragon whose finger is the size of the human.

Weapons that are likely to aid climbing a dragon should give +2 to grapple checks to grapple or hang on.

Falling damage should be based on size categories: +1d6 per size category above large, standard skill checks to negate some of it, creature acts like a wall for slow fall.

Most of the functions still work, I think, save for size penalties and strength score differences, it's much more difficult to pin someone when the size difference is that great, but not entirely impossible. Moving someone still requires that you be able to carry the subject's weight, but I don't see anything else as being impossible as compared to very very difficult.

Even without size mods, larger creatures tend to have massive strengths on top of that, so it's still difficult even with a lot of bonuses.