Author Topic: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 53015 times)

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Surgo

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2008, 02:47:09 AM »
I don't see why people are opposed to just giving out straight stat bonuses without corresponding penalties. I mean, it's not like whatever halfling variant it is doesn't already have all that and more.

Pretty much every race with a level adjustment needs to be made into a race that doesn't have a level adjustment, because I think it's been pretty conclusively proved over the years that level adjustment is totally retarded.
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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2008, 02:51:07 AM »
Quite. The only way any sort of "level adjustment" works is if a 2nd level PC and a Drow (without class levels) are equal. It is painfully obvious that they're not.

I'm all for some races being stronger, but it has to be stronger in a way that we can ultimately balance, rather than either unbalancable or ultimately too weak.

As to stat bonuses without penalties...sometimes, penalties fit. Other times, they don't. I'm for applying when they fit and balancing from there.
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Mister_Sinister

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2008, 03:00:36 AM »
Surgo, I agree more or less that penalties are sucktastic. However, at the same time, my suggestion for racial maximums at creation addresses that. In most cases, even that shouldn't be neccessary either.

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RabidPirateMan

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2008, 06:02:50 PM »
RabidPirateMan, you CANNOT disjoin fluff and crunch. You just can't - the very notion is ridiculous. Crunch exists to mechanically represent fluff - it cannot be a baseless abstraction. As a result, if this means keeping certain racial stereotypes, we must do so. As K said, you cannot remove system mastery (having some options be better some of the time than at other times) without removing all consequence of choice (and ending up with 4E, which doesn't do this for races in any case). Thus, due to both of these considerations, the fact that some races are better at being something than others must, and hopefully will, remain.

Fluff is what makes the game fun, but this isn't 'Rewrite the DnD multiverse.'  I'd say its fluff that makes some of DnD imbalanced anyway (poor understanding of the system they were making is the biggest culprit though).  Half-Orcs are bad because what they get doesn't match with what they lose, but fluff-wise, it makes sense: they have poor thinking abilities, and half-orcs aren't pretty or polite.

Mechanically its borked, but storywise, sure, why shouldn't half-breed mongrols of a barbaric race be dumb and ugly?

So according to the wotc canon, most dwarves are fighters.  Great.  There are those who want that represented in the game.  My point is, it already is.  + to con, - to a dump stat, farmiliarity with a cool weapon, etc.  They are better at being fighters than, say, halflings.  This is with or without the existing favored class mechanic.

Some races are better than others.  Halflings make better Sorcerers than Dwarves, even though its not represented by their favored class.

So fluff can still be there- put under their description block, 'You know, most dwarves become fighters.  Just fyi.'

And my statement about humans probably wasn't written as clearly as it should have been- my point is, with or without the existing favored class mechanic, aren't humans already very strong?  Imagine 3.5 as is, except there is no multiclass penalties and no favored class.  Humans are still the most powerful class, but now players can multiclass without penalties.  What's wrong with that?


Now, I haven't convinced you, so I think that means I'm missing something.  I don't want to slow things down, so if everyone agrees to keep favored classes mechanically represented, I'll drop the issue.  Not trying to get in the way, just adding discussion :D

Mister_Sinister

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2008, 10:06:58 PM »
Quote from: RabidPirateMan
Fluff is what makes the game fun, but this isn't 'Rewrite the DnD multiverse.'  I'd say its fluff that makes some of DnD imbalanced anyway (poor understanding of the system they were making is the biggest culprit though).  Half-Orcs are bad because what they get doesn't match with what they lose, but fluff-wise, it makes sense: they have poor thinking abilities, and half-orcs aren't pretty or polite.

Fluff is what mechanics represent. Disjoining the two would be akin to making an abstract painting from a real medium - an interesting exercise, but not representative of perceived reality. What we are trying to do is represent fluff, while remaining balanced, and this is not actually that hard to do.

Half-orcs DO get what they should fluff-wise, but they just don't get their advantages pumped enough. They are supposed to have poor thinking, and not be pretty or polite, but they have orc blood, which makes them stronger and tougher. Thus, this should be represented adequately, and, as it stands, this does not compensate for their loss of mental and social ability. It's a case of bad representation, not non-representation, and thus, does not actually serve your argument at all.

Quote
So according to the wotc canon, most dwarves are fighters.  Great.  There are those who want that represented in the game.  My point is, it already is.  + to con, - to a dump stat, farmiliarity with a cool weapon, etc.  They are better at being fighters than, say, halflings.  This is with or without the existing favored class mechanic.

What you are arguing for is total burning of said mechanic, from what I can see. While this does have many advantages, I'm not sure what everyone else thinks of it. I would think about doing it, but only if there is agreement on this project in this.

The thing is, I suspect we may be talking past each other, and that happens occasionally. I wouldn't mind burning favoured classes, but I'm not for content deletion if it can be helped. What are other thoughts on this?

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DaveoftheRave

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2008, 10:32:03 PM »
Quote
and half-orcs aren't pretty or polite.

But that doesn't correspond to the charisma stat.

A penalty to diplomacy might be in order but charisma represents strength of personality.  That is why sorcerers draw on their charisma, they are channeling their own power.

People can also be charismatic in very different ways.

Mister_Sinister

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2008, 10:39:16 PM »
Quote
and half-orcs aren't pretty or polite.

But that doesn't correspond to the charisma stat.

A penalty to diplomacy might be in order but charisma represents strength of personality.  That is why sorcerers draw on their charisma, they are channeling their own power.

People can also be charismatic in very different ways.

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Vas

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2008, 10:41:50 PM »
I may be crazy, but isnt dropping the fluff in favour of mechanics one of the worst things you can do?

Essentially what you are saying is you want to play a maths quiz. I dont know about you, but I was never really that fond of maths to begin with. I know maths is part of the game, but even with designing rewrites and balances it shouldnt be everything. From fluff, you get ideas and can work mechanics into something that means something. If you try doing it the other way, all you are doing is trying to justify your reasoning for adding x stat at y amount, and that always rings about as true as a wet tissue hitting a patch of moist dirt.

Fluff is everything in DnD, even in the houserules and rewriting threads.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2008, 10:47:07 PM »
Some ideas...

Use OW4s ruling for stat penalties (i.e. apply the penalty before the point-buy, so a -2 Int means you start with a 6 not an 8.) It's still a slight cost, but not obsessively so.

Get rid of stat penalties. Give a race a +2 to either 1 or 2 abilties.

Set up a standard for a balanced race.  What I mean is very simple. Pick a race that is good. Find out what makes it good. Build races from that. Take dwarves for example. They get vision improvement, stability, +2 con, etc. Make a list, find out what should stay. Make a pool and work from that. So elves get low-light vision instead of darkvision and ability x instead of stability, and +2 dex instead of con. etc.
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Mister_Sinister

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2008, 10:52:58 PM »
Quote from: AfterCrescent
Use OW4s ruling for stat penalties (i.e. apply the penalty before the point-buy, so a -2 Int means you start with a 6 not an 8.) It's still a slight cost, but not obsessively so.

Ah, so that's who I ninja'd that from... :D

I call for humans being the balance norm suggested.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 11:13:59 PM by Mister_Sinister »

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AfterCrescent

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2008, 11:09:24 PM »
I don't think humans should be the balance point, simply because humans only have 1 feat. While that is arguably awesome, compared to the number of things dwarves and other races get, it doesn't help build a balanced pool to draw from...
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Mister_Sinister

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2008, 11:14:17 PM »
In that case, dwarf, as you said.

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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2008, 11:15:17 PM »
Fluff is what mechanics represent. Disjoining the two would be akin to making an abstract painting from a real medium - an interesting exercise, but not representative of perceived reality. What we are trying to do is represent fluff, while remaining balanced, and this is not actually that hard to do.
I certainly agree with this much.  I'd like the two to work well together.  So when you say something like "half orcs aren't good wizards." and someone asks why, you can tell them "it's because they take a penalty to their Int score".  Honestly, I'm fine with some races not being as good at other things and better at others.

Now, I won't include this as a balance issue, but I've often prefered the idea of dwarves having -2 Dex and no Cha penalty (which is really gold dwarves from the DMG).  This makes dwarven paladins more doable (which I think is a cool concept), and further penalizes the lightly armored types.  Dwarves already suck at that due to their slow base speed.  My point is, if I were to do this, the mechanical changes I make to the game have a very direct impact on the fluff I want for dwarves.  If we want to make them gruff, we can always slap a -2 Diplomacy on them and call it good.


Quote
and half-orcs aren't pretty or polite.

But that doesn't correspond to the charisma stat.

A penalty to diplomacy might be in order but charisma represents strength of personality.  That is why sorcerers draw on their charisma, they are channeling their own power.

People can also be charismatic in very different ways.
I agree with this, but I've also dropped the -2 Cha penalty from half-orcs (in the main post on the first page).  I did this both because I don't like how so many "non pretty" races get -2 Cha and also because I like that half-orcs make better sorcerers than wizards with this rule.  It's like they can only be really skilled at arcane magic if they're born with a gift, because they're not as good at studying.

---

If I get around to it, I'll post some other non-standard race ideas.
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Mister_Sinister

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2008, 11:17:23 PM »
Robby, I seriously wanna have you children. :D

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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2008, 11:18:45 PM »
A while back I based a LA +1 half-ogre on the goliath.  Here's what I made.  What do you think?

  • +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, - 2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
  • Powerful build.
  • Base land speed of 30 feet.
  • Darkvision out to 60 feet.
  • Base languages: Common and Giant.  Bonus languages: Dwarven, Orc, Goblin, Terren
  • Level adjustment: +1



I like most races to be either LA +0 or maybe LA +1.  I'm fully in favor of using Unearthed Arcana's level adjustment buy-off, which makes LA +1 doable at low-mid levels.  By forth level you can be free of the LA and you can catch up to your peers a few more later.  As a general rule, anything I post will probably be LA +0 or +1.


Edit:
I always liked the idea of a half-ogre, but the ECL of 4 was a real turn off.  That's why I made this.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Mister_Sinister

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2008, 11:23:16 PM »
Instead of having LA +1, why not stagger benefits? Namely, at the level you would normally have the buyoff, you get the rest of the benefits? Maybe tie it up with feats?

And I like.

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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2008, 11:26:07 PM »
Also, as far as a balance point:

I'd like the races to be roughly on par with humans, but I think it's tough to balance a typical race against humans.  Humans get two abilities, but both of them are usefull solely for their versitilty:
  • +1 skills (any skill you want)
  • a bonus feat (any you qualify for at level 1)

So, basically, unless the race is broken as hell, this tends to make humans the defacto best race for any role because they can do anything.

Dwarves get a lot of shit, but so much of that is situational.  If we try to balance races agaisnt dwarves, we have to think about which dwarven abilities are truely useful (and affect game balance) and which are really their for fluff in the form of very minor mechainics (+4 vs bullrush).

Also, on a side note, I'm all for races having minor mechanical boosts to support fluff.  Note these three traits I gave to my LA +0 hobgoblins (first page):
  • +2 racial bonus on Knowlege(History) - represents knowledge of warfare
  • +2 racial bonus on Profession(Siege Engineer) - how often will this come up?  Still, their fluff supports it IMO
  • +1 attack roll against elves - they hate them don't they?  It's pretty minor in my book
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Mister_Sinister

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2008, 11:27:14 PM »
Again, Robby, I like. As far as the dwarf goes, it's a better choice for a balance point than the human, because, as you said, humans just do everything well.

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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2008, 11:28:49 PM »
Instead of having LA +1, why not stagger benefits? Namely, at the level you would normally have the buyoff, you get the rest of the benefits? Maybe tie it up with feats?
I've seen things posted like this, where they break an LA +X race into an X+1 level progression.  So, they made drow (LA +2) into a three level progression.  At first level, you get some basic abilities, but you have to "buy" the LA +2 with two class levels.  It's really a Saveage Species progression.  While it's nice to allow someone to play a more powerful race at level 1, I'm not sure how much I like the idea.  That's largely why I try to keep the LA of races down lower.

The other reason is because they're easier to balance.


And I like.
Thanks.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Mister_Sinister

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Re: D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2008, 11:33:58 PM »
I wasn't suggesting 'buying' anything. Simply, you just get the rest of your abilities at character level whatever, because at that stage, it actually doesn't matter.

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