D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]

[AndyJames]

Your assumption that NEGATIVE energy produces heat is nixed by the DMG, which described the Negative Energy Plane as, amongst other things, cold. Ergo, it does not produce heat. Undead have also been variously described as cold, room-temperature, etc., which means they do not produce heat by themselves.

Next time, please read up on the subject before opening your mouth.

[Elennsar]

Cold, yes. Absolute zero, no. Movement...whether or not that movement is from "negative energy" still involves energy in the scientific sense and that involves heat. So while a perfectly still undead might be invisible to heat sensing eyes, it moving would give some idea that there's something.

Next time, please note the difference between the two.

Note: How can something be described as "cold" and "room temperature" at the same time?

I get the feeling that WotC is pulling another "we don't need to make sense, this is FANTASY!" on us.

[AndyJames]

If room temperature is absolute zero, we'd all be dead.

As I said, read up on the subject (IR imaging) before opening your mouth.

[JaronK]

Movement = Kenetic Energy.  Heat = Thermal Energy.  Often one converts to the other, but not in huge amounts unless there's serious friction, or if there's some other energy being converted to Kenetic and losing to Thermal in the process.  Now, I can't say how a skeleton moves per se, but I don't see them being much warmer than the surrounding environment.  Certainly they wouldn't glow like a warm blooded creature.  Heck, a lizard only shows up on thermal if it's been sunning itself.  Why should something with no metabolism at all show up?

Furthermore, Undead are powered by negative energy, which is described as being cold.  They're often described as having an unearthly chill.  I'm not seeing those as being particularly warm.

JaronK

[SiggyDevil]

And this is why it's unwise to put "thermovision" in D&D.

[Elennsar]

As I said, note the difference between describing something as "cold" and saying its absolute zero.

If they're moving, they're producing energy, unless there's some psuedo-logical magic explaination for how the energy and heat involved in movement are sucked up by the negative energy. (and wtf is negative energy? Negative and positive are both nothing like "normal energy"...bah. Stupid designers.)

Jaron: I'm reasonably sure that they'd be different-from-surrounding-temperature enough to be noticed. If anything, a blob roughly humanoid in shape of "hey, this is colder than the surrounding air" would stand out, if not as clearly as to sight (light based or heat based) from the environment.

[AndyJames]

Elennsar, what the hell are you talking about? What has absolute zero got to do with this?

Answer this so that we can all laugh at you and move on.

[Elennsar]

Otherwise known as "answer this so that you can compensate for not understanding what I said by being a dick".

Absolute zero = no movement. At all.

That means anything moving will have a temperature above absolute zero. It may be "far colder than the surrounding air', it might be "the same as the surrounding air", but it has a temperature.

Now, if you can only sense "warm(er) things", then yes, undead are invisible. If you're sensitive to levels of heat, anything with a heat different than the room (or whatever) its in would be visible.

Warm(er) things than the surrounding environment, that is.

[AndyJames]

Absolute zero = 0 Kelvin.

I don't know where you got your idea of absolute zero = no movement from, but I still fail to see what 0 Kelvin has got to do with what is being said.

Thermal imaging works like this:
All temperature shows up, but ambient temperature shows up as a background colour. The warmer you are compared to the ambient temperature, the brighter you show up on an IR scanner. The colder you are compared to the ambient, the darker you appear. If you are at the ambient temperature, you blend in and thus do not show up.

If Undead is at room temperature (and they will be even if they are natively cooler than ambient), then you can't see them on IR.

As I said, read up on the frakking subject before you open your stupid hole. This has nothing to do with absolute zero. In fact, absolute sero will show up on IR scanners as a black blotch, you raving imbecile!!

[JaronK]

Otherwise known as "answer this so that you can compensate for not understanding what I said by being a dick".

Absolute zero = no movement. At all.

That's molecular vibrations you're talking about, not the motion of a leg or something.  Said leg motion is actually a heck of a lot slower than the vibrations of a molecule at 30 degrees C, and basically not related in any meaningful manner.

That means anything moving will have a temperature above absolute zero. It may be "far colder than the surrounding air', it might be "the same as the surrounding air", but it has a temperature.

Now, if you can only sense "warm(er) things", then yes, undead are invisible. If you're sensitive to levels of heat, anything with a heat different than the room (or whatever) its in would be visible.

Warm(er) things than the surrounding environment, that is.

Motion of a leg or arm alone is not enough to create a significant temperature differencial compared to the rest of an area.  It just won't do it.  The reason a moving person gets warmer is they're converting chemical energy to kenetic energy when their muscles activate and losing some energy to thermal energy in the process.  That's not happening with undead... they're converting Negative Energy, which is cold (something that doesn't exist in real life but does exist in D&D) into Kenetic Energy somehow.  That's not going to give off extra heat.

JaronK

[Elennsar]

So, if undead are "cold", they're very visible. If they're "as warm as the air around them', they're invisible.

But last I heard, "cold" used to describe things (people, objects, etc.) was as -compared- to the General Temperature.

So if I have something at 0 (Fahrenheit) it is "cold", but something able to sense warmer or colder things than the surrounding air would be able to see it as well as something at 100.

As for Kelvin: http://biologie.kappa.ro/textbook/resting_potential/gaslaws.htm

 Where there is no heat (at absolute zero or 0 Kelvin, the zero on the absolute temperature scale named after William Thomson, Lord Kelvin), there is no movement.* The hotter it gets, the faster molecules or ions move. And the random thermal movement of ions in an aqueous solution is determined by the same thing that determines the random thermal movement of molecules in a gas: the energy imparted by heat to the particles. It happens that gases are quite a lot easier to understand than anything else, making this a good place to start.
  

*it's not quite true to say that there is no movement - those of you who know about quantum mechanics will know that any object can possess one of a set of discrete energies and they don't start from zero (which means that nothing can ever stand still); but for our purposes "no movement" is accurate enough.

Italics are mine. So if something is moving, however slightly, it cannot be at zero Kelvin.

So, if undead are "chilly", then they'd be as obvious as a torch is.

Being at "room temperature" would be very visible in most conditions outdoors...the air outside is rarely at 70 Fahrenheit. Its usually warmer or colder. Now, if the air is at 70, they'd blend in. And depending on how sensitive the infravision is (being able to judge say, 0.3 degrees of difference as opposed to only able to notice in incremenments of 5), you'd probably "see" any undead in any conditions.

So while I wouldn't want to read in the dark, I would be able to tell that something at 0 (assuming a constant of 70) is present as well as something of 140.

So, who needs to read up on whether or not undead would be invisible?

Jaron: Yes, but since the question was "can you tell if its there", not "can you tell what exactly it is doing", if it produces any heat different than the surrounding temperature, it is not invisible.

If they're of a different temperature, whether that temperature is so cold it would freeze a human to death by touching or so warm it would light them on fire, they're visible.

Addition/edit: Not to change the subject, but Robby, at what point do you want us to make a new thread for this? I mentioned infravision as an alternative to darkvision, and I don't want to see the thread taken up by arguing on which is better or anything like that.

So...when do we turn this over to a new thread? Now?

[AndyJames]

Gods, you really have no idea what the hell you are talking about, do you? You are just trolling through the Internet on Google trying furiously to download stuff that seems relevant and using that disjointed information sans understanding to bolster your arguments, aren't you?

You know that little law which states that heat transfers from a higher temperature to a lower one? If the Undead is lower, ambient temperature would warm them up to ambient temperature? If they do not produce heat, they will always be at ambient temperature?

Seriously, how much of a deeper hole are you going to dig for yourself here?

"For our purposes..." Hey, moron! No one said anything about absolute zero but yourself. It has no bearing on the subject at hand, which is something that I was trying to tell you obliquely. Instead, you went on and on about it as if it meant something. Stop trying to derail the thread and trying to put up red herrings to prevent yourself from being shown to be the know-nothing that you are.

[Elennsar]

Okay. If they're "cold", then obviously that cold is noticable. If they're not cold, then unless they are at exactly ambient temperature, they can be noticed by detecting heat.

Since humans are also having heat be transfered, and we're not invisible on heat sensing...

Why would undead be?

Because you'd rather have "cold" mean 'absence of heat" than 'lower level of heat"?


Edit: If you bother to read the link, you'll notice I'm quoting it.

[JaronK]

Elennsar:  A vace produces no heat.  It is "not moving" as you put it.  Does this mean it's colder than the rest of the room?  No.  It's not producing heat, so heat around it is transfered to it.  This is called Thermodynamics, and if you want to play scientist (and you're talking to someone well trained in the subject) you should really read up on those, particularly the second law.  Unless the undead are actively sucking large amounts of energy out, they're going to be the same temperature as everything else.  They won't show up easily, to be sure.  If they're sucking some energy out (that chill effect) then the whole room will get chilly too, and they might look a little darker, or maybe the whole room would just look dark, depending on your sensitivity... or the difference might be as little as a cold blooded creature and not be noticeable.

Now, could you see them at all?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Hard to know.  Depends on how they work.  There's good reason the idea of Darkvision as heat vision was dropped... too many bizarre interactions.

JaronK

[Elennsar]

If they're not at ambient temperature, they're going to be warmer than it or colder than it.

And there's no reason that Thermodynamics make an undead exactly ambient temperature anymore than they do me.

So, an undead that is colder than the 10x10 room would show up just as easily an Azer that is warmer.

An infravision capable creature would notice both. Now, the lizard might well blend into the rock, but that just means you have a blob shaped like a lizard on a rock instead of two distinct things, the lizard and the rock.

[AndyJames]

Okay. If they're "cold", then obviously that cold is noticable. If they're not cold, then unless they are at exactly ambient temperature, they can be noticed by detecting heat.

Since humans are also having heat be transfered, and we're not invisible on heat sensing...

Why would undead be?

Because you'd rather have "cold" mean 'absence of heat" than 'lower level of heat"?


Edit: If you bother to read the link, you'll notice I'm quoting it.

Hey, idiot. Did you read what Jaron said earlier about chemical reactions?

You are quoting without understanding, which is your downfall. Second Law of Thermodynamics. This is something that is taught in highschool. If you want to argue IR imaging, you would need at least a passing knowledge of this law. More if you want to get into the nitty-gritty of it.

Listen to people who actually knows something about heat transfer and specific heat capacity, and stop trying to sound as if you know things when you don't. Maybe then you'd actually learn something.

[AndyJames]

If they're not at ambient temperature, they're going to be warmer than it or colder than it.

And there's no reason that Thermodynamics make an undead exactly ambient temperature anymore than they do me.

So, an undead that is colder than the 10x10 room would show up just as easily an Azer that is warmer.

An infravision capable creature would notice both. Now, the lizard might well blend into the rock, but that just means you have a blob shaped like a lizard on a rock instead of two distinct things, the lizard and the rock.

Oh gods above.

Jaron, you can deal with this kid. Retarded Aelryinth clones give me a headache.

[Elennsar]

I'm reasonably sure that if we manage to be 28.6 degrees warmer than the air around us that the Law of Thermodymaniacs does not thusly turn 70 degree air +98.6 degree human into = 83-odd degree air and human.

Why is it turning an undead into that? And how are you able to describe an undead as "cold" and and ambient temperature?

That doesn't work. It could be one or the other, but not both.

[AndyJames]

I'm reasonably sure that if we manage to be 28.6 degrees warmer than the air around us that the Law of Thermodymaniacs does not thusly turn 70 degree air +98.6 degree human into = 83-odd degree air and human.

Why is it turning an undead into that? And how are you able to describe an undead as "cold" and and ambient temperature?

That doesn't work. It could be one or the other, but not both.

We produce heat to combat the temperature difference, you moron.

[Elennsar]

And undead because of this negative energy produce cold. Thusly, they stay colder than the surrounding air just as we stay warmer.

Or is negative energy ambient temperature now?