D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Mister_Sinister]

OK, M_V, I'd like to apologise for my knee-jerk reaction. While I could present a whole list of excuses for why I was so snappy with you, it's really not acceptable in any case, regardless of mitigating factors, and I'm sorry for being a jerk.

@ Robby and Elennsar: I'm with Robby on this one - Strength at 28 when you're just barely subepic is fine.

[Elennsar]

Robby: I stand by my point. If you want to play a demigod, then play a demigod. Don't play a Human with +2 to Intelligence (only for purposes of calculating skill points) and a bonus feat.

Starting with an 18 puts you at the very top of humanity (by the assumption that 3d6 is intended to reflect more or less the normal human range of ability).

I'm not insisting that humans be kept at Earth-level capacity.

I am distinctly uninterested in the game forcing characters to either stop gaining abilities at all (by capping level advancement at 5 or something) or to become able to do feats well beyond anything any human in any legend has ever been credited with.

Now, if the game was set up so that "1-5: Nothing you wouldn't find on Earth with some searching." "6-10: What you might find on Earth on rare occasions and generally found in fiction." "11-15: Wuxia and beyond.", and you could learn new skills, feats, etc. without a problem (you just wouldn't gain any of the abilities requiring being at a higher level of power), this wouldn't be nearly as bad.  I've nothing against people wanting to play demigods...I mind the game forcing that.

However, when the only way to gain anything is either DM ad-libbing or leveling, then it should be possible to play a character who might be able to slay a giant and who would only slay a dragon through sheer luck and deus ex machina without losing the ability to learn stuff.

I still don't think humans should turn into demigods...at any level. If you want to play a demigod, play a demigod. Come up with the "half-God" template and play Hercules's superior until you get bored. Fine. But don't call him "Human". In no sense of the word is a character with 28 Strength human.

[Mister_Sinister]

Well, this is the way it tends to roll out - you go superhuman at 11. No matter what race you have listed on your character sheet, at that stage, you are joining the Justice League.

[Midnight_v]

Well, this is the way it tends to roll out - you go superhuman at 11. No matter what race you have listed on your character sheet, at that stage, you are joining the Justice League.

This message is has been approved by Barack Obama  Midnight_v

[RobbyPants]

I am distinctly uninterested in the game forcing characters to either stop gaining abilities at all (by capping level advancement at 5 or something) or to become able to do feats well beyond anything any human in any legend has ever been credited with.

Like it or not, when you're killing creatures that are 40 feet tall, you're superhuman.  That's how the game works.  If you don't want the game to force it on you, don't play past level 5.

There is some version of D&D (E6 or something?) that caps the game at level 6, but changes some abilities accordingly.  If you want to play "D&D", that's just how it works.  That's the game.

Well, this is the way it tends to roll out - you go superhuman at 11. No matter what race you have listed on your character sheet, at that stage, you are joining the Justice League.

+1

[Elennsar]

No, that's how it -fails- to work. The game either needs to be designed as superhuman from day 1 or built to allow either.

Having characters gain superhuman status or be forced to give up any advancement of your character at all is a bad deal.

[Mister_Sinister]

I have already been advocating advancement outside the level system that has nothing to do with items for a while as a solution to these problems. Essentially, we need to dissociate at least some advancement from the levelling system, which can allow for people who don't want their games to go superhuman can do so, and their PCs can still enjoy getting new toys to play with without applying the buttsecks to their game.

[Elennsar]

That would solve this, since it would mean that the only people who play at 11-15 (or 16-20, or whatever) would be those interested, but anyone would be able to develop as far as they wanted.

[Mister_Sinister]

My idea was essentially getting 'organisational' benefits, which would apply regardless of level, and would be awarded based on certain in-game achievements. Kinda like affiliations, with less sucktitude. Alternatively, you could have stuff like bathing in magical pools, or eating magic fruit, which grant you some bonus outside the levelling system. That kinda stuff.

[Elennsar]

Either way, if you can figure out what's "sufficient" to justify "you get a better bonus from the organization", you can figure out what's sufficient to justify other improvements.

[RobbyPants]

No, that's how it -fails- to work. The game either needs to be designed as superhuman from day 1 or built to allow either.

Having characters gain superhuman status or be forced to give up any advancement of your character at all is a bad deal.

I guess I fail to see how this is a problem.  It seems like you can have your cake and eat it too, really.  If you want to play a "reaslistic power level" game, just keep the levels low.  If you want to play as "superman", start the game at a higher level.  If you want to go from human to superhuman, run 1 to 20.  It seems like there's an option for everyone. 

This way, in one gaming system, you can do all those things by doing nothing more than having the DM dole out as much XP as he wants to keep the advancement at the pace he wants.

Besides, anything else is a full system rewrite, and I don't want to do that! 

[AfterCrescent]

Well said, Robby.

[Elennsar]

However, it means that unless you want to completely and totally forget about learning anything after you hit 5th level (or 10th, or whatever), you have to gain levels and thusly advance beyond the place you want to play at.

For those who don't mind gaining power up to whatever level of superhumanity they want to play at, that's not a problem. For those who do want to play characters who are actually human but who can actually learn stuff more broadly than is available to any 5th level character, they get fucked. This is not good.
There's an option for either playing superman or becoming superman, there's no option for anything resembling realistic or even lower level fantastic without being screwed over by "Oh, sorry, since you only gain skill points and feats when you gain a level, you have to gain a level to learn anything new."

Baaaaaaad.

[AfterCrescent]

A) That's not bad. It's just not the way you want to play the game. However it doesn't change how the game was designed. We're not doing a system re-write, so we'll have to make due with things as they are in some aspects.

B) What you want is E6. Go read up on it You stay human (i.e. level 6 max) but still gain feats and other things, so you can still learn and be human. That has nothing to do with the balancing of this system.

[Midnight_v]

A) That's not bad. It's just not the way you want to play the game. However it doesn't change how the game was designed. We're not doing a system re-write, so we'll have to make due with things as they are in some aspects.

B) What you want is E6. Go read up on it You stay human (i.e. level 6 max) but still gain feats and other things, so you can still learn and be human. That has nothing to do with the balancing of this system.

THANK YOU +1
Your gamerfu has increased.

[Elennsar]

A) Yes, it is bad. It is VERY bad to say "Oh, well, you can do this, but we're going to screw you over for doing it." Either make the game about superheroes or make the game able to do both, but not this half assed "low levels are weak and boring".

"Let's keep as much of the system intact as possible because we don't want to actually change it!" is not necessarily the best design goal.

B) No, what I want is to be able to play at the larger than life level comfortably. If I wanted to play strictly realistic, nothing-not-seen-typically-on-Earth humans, as opposed to realistic-but-larger-than-life-humans, I'd play GURPS, and avoid d20 entirely.

D&D does not represent that particularly well...it sprints past it on the way to superhuman.

It is perfectly reasonable to want to be able to play LotR-esque characters in a game system, and to be able to gain power slowly. Saying "the DM can vary the rate of xp gain!" is like all "the DM can compensate for the system being broken" things...it misses the point.


One of the reasons I have for wishing for something toned down is that a sufficiently powerful character will wind up as very hard to challenge. D&D characters simply do not have much in the way of weaknesses that can't be negated by high enough numbers.

For instance, if you have a character who can take on demon lords and win, then the character has massive powers to alter the setting. While I have nothing against playing Cuchulain in and of itself, or Hercules, or Gilgamesh or any of those kind of massively over the top heroes,  when you have the PCs able to beat the most powerful beings of the setting, then any PC who wants to over throw Hell (or Heaven, for that matter) can. Big shock to the setting. No longer are the beings who have ruled for thousands of years top of the heap.

This might be a very good thing for an adventure where the players/PCs want to get there, but its not so good for a campaign like the one below:

Let's say I want to run a campaign where the forces of Hell/the Abyss are invading the world. Having the PCs able to one shot kill Orcus dramatically diminishes the sense that this is a Great and Epic Challenge, even for the Mightiest of Heroes. In fact, it flat out eliminates it. Heck, even if Orcus is a "Standard encounter" (the PCs will use up some of their resources and is likely to leave them hurt but not dead.), it ruins the idea that even the greatest heroes cannot (ordinarily) stop him.

And saying "well, you can make him even stronger!" doesn't help. That just means that instead of needing to be 40th level to one shot him, you need to be 60th or whatever. And if you keep doing that, you're winding up with a lot more calculation of "Is this tough enough?" than is really fun.

This really belongs in a seperate part of the rebalancing discussion than here, so if/when someone suggests somewhere to discuss it (as an issue with the game that should be addressed), I'll move it.

[AfterCrescent]

I understand what you want from a game, but D&D is not that game. I'm sorry to tell you that, but it's not. D&D is high fantasy action-adventure game. One where you start out as little more than a basic human, nothing special, and evolve into the hero of legends. 1-20. That's how it works. That's how it was designed, and that's what's supposed to happen.

You don't like that. I get it. But it doesn't change the core of the game. That's what D&D is. If you want something different, you either want to remake it into a new system or find another game. Neither of which is the purpose of this project, if I understand it correctly. It's to make the game itself balanced, so a level 20 X is a fair fight against a level 20 Y.

I'm not going to debate campaign specifics, but anything involving high fantasy is possible in D&D, because it's a high fantasy game. Not a low fantasy, LotR-type game. I can fire lightning out of my eyes, rip the wings off of demons, dance naked with a coven of warlock-lycanthropes and still make my 8AM appointment with Thor. It's just how it works. That's the system. It's what we're working with.

[Midnight_v]

I understand what you want from a game, but D&D is not that game. I'm sorry to tell you that, but it's not. D&D is high fantasy action-adventure game. One where you start out as little more than a basic human, nothing special, and evolve into the hero of legends. 1-20. That's how it works. That's how it was designed, and that's what's supposed to happen.

You don't like that. I get it. But it doesn't change the core of the game. That's what D&D is. If you want something different, you either want to remake it into a new system or find another game. Neither of which is the purpose of this project, if I understand it correctly. It's to make the game itself balanced, so a level 20 X is a fair fight against a level 20 Y.

I'm not going to debate campaign specifics, but anything involving high fantasy is possible in D&D, because it's a high fantasy game. Not a low fantasy, LotR-type game. I can fire lightning out of my eyes, rip the wings off of demons, dance naked with a coven of warlock-lycanthropes and still make my 8AM appointment with Thor. It's just how it works. That's the system. It's what we're working with.

Yeah... what he said.

Now that's not to say that we wouldn't be opposed to designing a game, or rather designing a game you'd be interested in playing, if you were to start your own project, but knowing what the goal is and not wanting to work with in the confines is just distracting for everyone else. Its not cool. So you should make your own project probbably, I second that thought. You'll get a lot more support with your ideas if you can set the specific design goal.
Good luck, El.
M_V

[Elennsar]

Its a system that could be and should be changed, either to do high fantasy from day one or to allow for both.

More importantly:

Simply making it balanced between character types available to the players doesn't address the issue of overpowered PCs (relative to the setting) at all, which definately needs to be dealt with (suggestion on where?)...its beyond absurd for the characters to be able to fundementally alter the setting at high enough levels.

This isn't about being high fantasy or not. Its about how Demon Lords are supposed to be more than mortal beings(which high fantasy heroes are, supposedly. Sure, they might be able to banish him with great effort and sacrifice, but they can't simply kill him and destroy all the forces of Evil in the setting.

Being able to do that kind of stuff needs to be weeded out. If you want to play a demigod, play a demigod. If you want to play "I can rid the world of all evil", you're in need of psychological help.

[Midnight_v]

Its a system that could be and should be changed, either to do high fantasy from day one or to allow for both.

...and maybe you're right but thats not what the rebalancing project is about. I kinda figured thats how you felt about it for a while now.... Frankly, thats cool but that isn't what this is about, so you know be constructive, you're not going to convince all of us to divorce ourselves from what were doing, so why would you every 5 posts or so reiterate that we need to implement sweeping changes not just small ones?
Why not start a project for sweeping changes?

Being able to do that kind of stuff needs to be weeded out. If you want to play a demigod, play a demigod. If you want to play "I can rid the world of all evil", you're in need of psychological help.

Now you're just being a Douche' thats a perfectly acceptable style of play. Just like the low magic world is, however playing D&D is more in line with the Demigod stuff, and thats what we're largely trying to do, get all our little demigods in order.
You want to sort that out of the game and you should do so elsewhere.