D&D Races [Rebalancing 3.5]

[ZeroSum]

I really really really like the idea of stat mods being mods to start point buy from.  Bonuses (but not penalties) should also define maximum starting score for that stat.

[RabidPirateMan]

So lets say I wanted to play a Half-Orc (as is) Sorcerer under the stat mod point buy system with 32 pb.

I need an 18 into Cha, so that equals 18 points.

14 Con, 6 points.

14 Dex, 6 points.  We're up to 30, so I put two into Str (why not?).

That gives me 12 Str 14 Dex 14 Con 6 Int 8 Wis 18 Cha.

If I did that with a human, I probably would have boosted Int up to 12.

That kind of works.  Certainly not as much of a penalty as it would be with the -2 after stat buy.

[Elennsar]

Sunic: No, I'm serious.

-1 hit point per level and -1 to Fortitude saves is obnoxious. But assuming I have a 14+ in Constitution without it, not devastating. For a wizard, who already has low hit points? Yeah, but admitedly, if you're losing hit points as a wizard, you're already screwed.

The "play a brute and don't care" is fine...other than the fact that a "brute" with Int or Wis 8 or less is going to be woefully short of good judgment, common sense, and understanding of anything remotely complicated.

That should be a serious disadvantage. D&D as written doesn't represent how nearly well enough.

Zero: I'd say both. If you play a race generally intellectually challegned, then you have a race which is very rarely going to go over (18-modifier).

Plain and simple, an ogre with Int 18 would be virtually impossible. Now, whether or not there should be any such limitation on orcs or half-orcs is another story (I would say no, but that means I wouldn't give them the penalty to begin with.)

[Sunic_Flames]

Well, the brute isn't going to be able to actually deal with this stuff anyways. Why's he need to understand it? Call it him shielding himself with his ignorance to protect himself from his own suck. Heh.

[Elennsar]

There are a lot of things where being an idiot is a hindrance. This is not one of the things fantasy should be forgiving on.

I like the idea of shielding (oneelf) with ignorance to protect from one's own suck, however. It may or may not be a good game idea, but it's a funny mental image.

"Damnit! The fighter is too stupid for me to mind control!" - angry, soon to be dead wizard.

[Sunic_Flames]

There are a lot of things where being an idiot is a hindrance. This is not one of the things fantasy should be forgiving on.

I like the idea of shielding (oneelf) with ignorance to protect from one's own suck, however. It may or may not be a good game idea, but it's a funny mental image.

"Damnit! The fighter is too stupid for me to mind control!" - angry, soon to be dead wizard.

I was making a tounge in cheek remark about fighter ineffectiveness. The serious bit is that even if they had good judgment and understanding of things remotely complicated... they're still restricted to hitting the thing with the other thing and cannot therefore act upon their knowledge. Ergo, they should be stupid so they don't feel helpless and impotent, thereby allowing them to convince themselves they are useful.

[Elennsar]

It's still funny to have characters be too dumb to effect with dominate person or the like. I can't help finding that to be amusing.

But yeah, if fighters are kept as meat shields at bests, there's no point in Int or Wis being taken seriously.

[Mister_Sinister]

The thing is, we can honestly burn all penalties ever, replace them with my racial maximums, and be done with it. It really is that simple, and it sorts out all our problems right there.

[Midnight_v]

The thing is, we can honestly burn all penalties ever, replace them with my racial maximums, and be done with it. It really is that simple, and it sorts out all our problems right there.

I really hate that idea.
Racial maximums? Eh... not so much.

I prefer having adversity and unimitied growth potential that the same chance to start out but ultimately reaching the "glass ceiling".
  -help I'm stuck.

[Mister_Sinister]

M_V, please learn some basic reading comprehension and keep up with the thread before posting random stuff with no connection to what has been said already. I was advocating maximums at CREATION.

[Midnight_v]

M_V, please learn some basic reading comprehension and keep up with the thread before posting random stuff with no connection to what has been said already. I was advocating maximums at CREATION.

  About the first part... about the learning basic reading comprehension. Fuck you, simply. Which is a more direct method of responding to you eloquently telling me to Stfu. Which considering all the work going on and the fractured nature of the threads people will miss things.
Though I admit I should have looked more closely, you're phrasing it that way just makes you a dick. Which you normally aren't even when we disagree. So you know *shrug*
Damn... must we be dicks ALL the time? 

Second, it will solve future miscommunications between us if you could you know... be fucking clear? This has less to do with my reading comprehension than your doing exactly  what you accuse me of.
Posting something random... which the way you phrased it is open to interpretation. You didn't say at start. You said "racial maximums" and there have been racial maximums in other games which actually mean "you may not grow naturally beyond this point. . .
Lastly, we actually are at the point currently where people are throwing out random shit.
So this could go like one of those ubernoob/bier things where I spend long days on end analyzing your every suggestion and making it a war cause I am offended by that, but instead I'll just get back to work and chalk it up to you being unusually rude at this one time.
...and get myself back to work.

Okay ultimately having a racial maximum at the begining is almost the exact same thing as having negatives on the point buy. So you might be right but . . . is that a "better" solution, than whats been done thus far.
Sunic implys negatives aren't needed at all.
I just think we should rebalance the negatives
Your answer actually has some validity, but what is the net gain of that.

[AfterCrescent]

So what do we have?

No racial penalties
Leave racial penalties as is
Have the penalties create a maximum score at character creation (i.e. -2 means a max of 16)
Have the penalties apply before PB (-2 means you start with a 6)

Anything else? If we can settle down a number of possibilities, we can just make a poll. Once we have a general consensus, we're on the way to problem solving.

[Risada]

So what do we have?

No racial penalties
Leave racial penalties as is
Have the penalties create a maximum score at character creation (i.e. -2 means a max of 16)
Have the penalties apply before PB (-2 means you start with a 6)

Anything else? If we can settle down a number of possibilities, we can just make a poll. Once we have a general consensus, we're on the way to problem solving.

I agree with the poll stuff.... but then someone will complain that the winner isn't the best choice...

[AfterCrescent]

Well too bad for them.

But seriously, I know some on the forum are more outspoken, and others don't post once one has said their thought. This way anyone can vote, and whatever the most people think is the best option, that's what we'll use. (Assuming Robby likes this idea).

[RabidPirateMan]

Were all rational people- we can discuss the pros and cons of each in a civilized manner.

[RobbyPants]

Well too bad for them.

But seriously, I know some on the forum are more outspoken, and others don't post once one has said their thought. This way anyone can vote, and whatever the most people think is the best option, that's what we'll use. (Assuming Robby likes this idea).

I suppose we could vote on it, although I'm not sure how representative the sample would be...

Personally I'm fine with a -2 penalty, but I don't think any of the other suggestions would break the game.  If the penalty gets greater than -2, I don't think a simple cap would work.

[Elennsar]

My thoughts:

First: No individual, not counting temporary bonuses from magic or the like (offhand: magic items or spells, can't recall anything else), may ever have more than 25 (20+5 Inherent bonus) plus/minus racial modifiers to a statistic.

Second: A character with a penalty of -2 to an an ability score cannot exceed 16 in that ability score at the start, one with -4 cannot exceed 14, etc.
Bonuses are added after statistics are generated.

Now, what penalties are actually justified needs to be weighed carefully, but we are presumably planning on doing that anyway.

[RobbyPants]

First: No individual, not counting temporary bonuses from magic or the like (offhand: magic items or spells, can't recall anything else), may ever have more than 25 (20+5 Inherent bonus) plus/minus racial modifiers to a statistic.

So, counting the +1 / 4 levels, you wouldn't let it exceed 25?  Normally, you could hit a base of 28 counting your base roll, Inherent bonuses, and the every 4th level bonus.  Why cap it three lower?

Second: A character with a penalty of -2 to an an ability score cannot exceed 16 in that ability score at the start, one with -4 cannot exceed 14, etc.
Bonuses are added after statistics are generated.

I don't know how much this matters for your typical -2 penalty, but an "average" member of that race would now have an average score (10-11) in that ability instead of an 8-9.  This gets even more exaserbated for penalties greater than -2.  Your average kobold would have a Str of 10-11 instead of 6-7.

[Elennsar]

Because a human with the Strength of a Giant is choking my suspension of disbelief. I can imagine Wuxia with some effort. I cannot imagine a human able to beat Hercules in a contest of Strength who is still human in an sense...and I dislike that D&D forces one to accept that.

It's not so much that I mind 28 instead of 25, as that 18 is already "on the very high end of what humans are capable of." Given my druthers, I'd say 23, but I think its reasonable to add another +2.

D&D needs to reign humans-who-are-equal-to-demigods in a little. Playing legends is one thing. Playing characters completely beyond the range of human (but supposedly human) is too much.

If you want to play a half-God, say so and do so from the begining.

As to kobolds (and penalties): Kobolds are weak and feeble because they're small, yes? Its not a racial flaw of "I am a kobold, hear me whimper.", its that small things are weaker. If you grew a kobold to medium size, it would be stronger.

So that kind of penalty or bonus stays as is. All Small things are weaker than their Medium sized equivalants, even if the race itself is not particularly weak.

Thusly, racial penalties to Strength for being Small (instead of size modifiers, applying to anyone at that size) are a bad idea, in my opinion.

[RobbyPants]

Because a human with the Strength of a Giant is choking my suspension of disbelief. I can imagine Wuxia with some effort. I cannot imagine a human able to beat Hercules in a contest of Strength who is still human in an sense...and I dislike that D&D forces one to accept that.

It's not so much that I mind 28 instead of 25, as that 18 is already "on the very high end of what humans are capable of." Given my druthers, I'd say 23, but I think its reasonable to add another +2.

Well, let's look at how we get to that 28:

Start:
We'll start with an 18.  This represents someone of peak capability in that stat.  This is perfectly reasonable, as it's possible.


Powerful magic:
After getting five Wishes, you get your +5 Inherent bonus.  Really, this should be counting with Enhancement and other magical bonuses, as it's magical in nature.


Work for it:
You gain +5 more after gaining 20 levels.  You're almost epic.  I really don't see the problem here.  Your buddies at this level are going to be slaying dragons and pit fiends and balors.  This point is pure fantasy.  Really, once you get past about 5th level, you've exceeded the bounds of human capability.  Assuming you put in a +1 at 4th level, you have a 19 on your score.  No big deal.

If you want to keep the power level back, don't let players get passed 5th level.