Skies of Arcadia

[AndyJames]

From here:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=786.0

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I am trying to build a character for the Skies of Arcadia campaign (Lands of Ice one), but I am running into issues:

First, I kind of like the whole idea of a bunch of Feral Kobolds running around on the ice, hunting and gathering and fighting for survival. I also like the idea of one of them being a Dragonwrought Kobold which is a bit of a weakling (compared to the rest of his clan, anyways). As such, he is always worshipped, yet looked down upon. Yeah, a bit oxymoronic, but basically, he is supposed to be some sort of higher being to a clan of feral barbarian types yet he is lacking in what they revere most: strength. You think that is silly, try being the tribe's shaman who has to explain this to his fellow tribesmen...

So, he channels his abilities into other ways of gaining respect: magic.

And that is where it falls apart.

I have decided to play this guy with a LA+2 template, mainly because I've never played anything with a template before.

The most basic, of course, would be a Feral Draconic Desert Kobold. Other options include Phrenic or Winged, either which would show his more unique status amongst his tribe.

Then I run into which class to play. Sorcerer is a must, since I am going to use Loredrake abuse. Feral would preclude Wizard, but either of the other two would allow it. At the moment, there is a choice of:

(Druid//Sorcerer) 3 / Cleric 1/MT 4/AH10/MT+2
or
(Cloistered Cleric//Sorcerer) 3 / Ruathar 3/Dweomerkeeper or Incantatrix 10/something x
or
(Wizard//Sorcerer) 1 / Beguiler 1/Master Specialist 3/Ultimate Magus 10/something x



*sighs* Choices, choices. And something is also nagging at me that the Tauric template is worth a look in this...

Help?

[Ubernoob]

Second one seems best for a class base.  Full CL.

[AndyJames]

With Loredrake and the Greater Rite of Passage that kobolds get, I get +3 spellcaster levels. I think a lost level here or there would not be that heavy a burden

How about template?
And Incantatrix or Dweomerkeeper?

[JaronK]

Considering you get to gestalt the first two base classes, I'd do something like Battle Sorcerer//Dread Necromancer.  Plenty of power, plenty of synergy.

JaronK

[AndyJames]

I thought about that but using normal Sorcerer. Discarded it because the lack of spells known really hurts. Also, DN is best used with something that goes into melee combat, which a Kobold is not really built for, even a DW Kobold.


Something else of note:

Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell + Loredrake + one 357 spellcasting class = Ruathar at 2nd level.

357 spellcasting = Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Wu Jen, etc.
468 spellcasting = Sorcerer, Favoured Soul, War Mage, Shunenja, etc.

[Omen of Peace]

With a LA +2 template you may not survive long given that you start at ECL 3. I'd recommend LA +1 and stack another one later on top of it if you really want to.

[AndyJames]

That's OK. It's the experience of a template character that I want to play with, really. I've never had one before.

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At the moment, I am looking at the following:

Phrenic Desert Kobold (Sorcerer//Beguiler) 1

Dragonblood Sorcerer sub 1 (Draconic Heritage)
Loredrake sub (+2 spellcasting)

Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Int to hp, rest in 4 hours)
Dragonwrought Kobold
Versatile Spellcaster


Going into Ruathar then Ultimate Magus from Wizard 1.

Question: Do you need Heighten Spell for the early entry trick to work? I mean if you automatically know all spells in your spell list, and you sacrifice slots via Versatile Spellcaster to get a third level spell, you can cast a third level spell, right?

[Omen of Peace]

I see you're putting your newly acquired knowledge of Faerie Mysteries to good use.

Technically you need CL 3 to cast your 2nd level spells but everybody always conveniently forgets about this rule. 

As for your question... ask your DM. Both sides can be argued.

[AndyJames]

Technically you need CL 3 to cast your 2nd level spells but everybody always conveniently forgets about this rule. 

Where is that rule listed? I am curious because CL3 is not a problem. The kobold has CL3 (Loredrake sub).

Personally, I think Versatile Spellcaster basically broke all sorts of rules when it allowed you to gain spell slots without a cap, even if there is sacrifice involved. At no time prior to it can you get level 2 spells without getting the required spellcasting class levels.

[Omen of Peace]

Oh, yeah, it's 3rd level spells you need for Ruathar - same difference, CL 5 minimum. It's in the PHB p172 under Caster Level.

[AndyJames]

It says that the caster level must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question. Normally, for 3rd level spells, that would be a CL of 5 for 357 casters, and CL of 6 for 468 casters because those are the lowest caster levels you can get the slots to cast them in.

However, like I have said, Versatile Spellcaster breaks that rule. When you combine it with classes that automatically know all spells of any level, and is restricted only by number of spell slots of that level... Bad things happen.

Now, I am not saying that that should be the case, but that is what the rules seem to indicate. It is a synergy problem that the folks at WotC didn't think about, nor did they bother to errata.

[Omen of Peace]

I don't see anything in VS raising that restriction ? That said, I'm probably not up-to-scratch on the RAW interpretation of that particular feat.

[AndyJames]

I don't see anything in VS raising that restriction ? That said, I'm probably not up-to-scratch on the RAW interpretation of that particular feat.

I don't see a restriction in the first place.

The "Ask Sage" (I think it was) clearly states that Versatile + Heighten works for situations like this. If that passage in the PHB applies, then there is no way you can Heighten a spell to level x and cast it, even though it was originally a level 1 spell because you are only level 1 or 2 at the time (forgot the exact question that was asked). The thing that stops just Versatile from happening normally is this:

A Sorcerer only gets a third level spell known at level 6. Thus, he can only realistically cast a third level spell at level 6 or later. Heighten Spell can legally get around this, of course, but remember that we are not talking about that at the moment.

Where Versatile breaks down is with spontaneous casters who know all spells on their list. There is only 3 that I know of: Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necro. These casters are only restricted by their spell slots available. Normally, they don't get third level spell slots until level 6.

Unfortunately, Versatile kicks this in the rear.

[Omen of Peace]

Last post because I'm going to agree to disagree.

I don't see a restriction in the first place.

The "Ask Sage" (I think it was) clearly states that Versatile + Heighten works for situations like this. If that passage in the PHB applies, then there is no way you can Heighten a spell to level x and cast it, even though it was originally a level 1 spell because you are only level 1 or 2 at the time (forgot the exact question that was asked).

The Sage can be wrong. I'm all for following his ruling when there's an ambiguity but I don't see any here. Note the difference with Precocious Apprentice which has a built-in mechanic to work around this: you have to succeed on a CL check to cast the 2nd level spell.

The thing that stops just Versatile from happening normally is this:

A Sorcerer only gets a third level spell known at level 6. Thus, he can only realistically cast a third level spell at level 6 or later. Heighten Spell can legally get around this, of course, but remember that we are not talking about that at the moment.

Where Versatile breaks down is with spontaneous casters who know all spells on their list. There is only 3 that I know of: Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necro. These casters are only restricted by their spell slots available. Normally, they don't get third level spell slots until level 6.

Unfortunately, Versatile kicks this in the rear.

Even that is arguable. Looking at the Beguiler: "When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list." Gaining access to spells, not simply slots - you need to gain a spellcasting level.

Now Sinfire is pretty lenient with this stuff so I'm sure it'll work anyway.

[AndyJames]

Oh, I am not looking to be lenient or anything. I just want to know the rules as is. I do know that the Sage says it works, so the CL thing is questionable at best. But you are right about the gaining access to a new level of spells bit. That means that Heighten Spell is definitely required because he won't know any spells of that level until he gains access to it.

Hmm... Faerie Mysteries might have to be dropped in that case. Bugger. Back to Feral Draconic by the looks of it, lust be damned

[AndyJames]

OK. Lastest draft:

Anyway: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=80746

Only things left to do (I think):

- Confirm Draconic Template. Am trying to stay away from that one as Draconic Dragon is just silly. Looking for something else that would work. Any suggestions? LA +1 max, no Evil types

- Complete Sorcerer spell selection. Suggestions?

- Martial Weapon choice for the guy. Leaning towards Great Club, but not 100% sure. Prefer a bludgeoning or ranged weapon. Suggestions?