Author Topic: Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?  (Read 1358 times)

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Kuroimaken

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« on: September 05, 2008, 12:40:15 PM »
Quote
Wall of text

Struck a nerve, much?

Don't worry, kid. I'm not going to act like your mother. Until you learn some proper respect, I will act like that uncle you used to really like but that stepped in when your parents failed to spank you. Except I won't be spanking you, that's the moderator's job (sorry Meg, couldn't resist).

You could have thirteen PhDs and I'd still tell you to punctuate better (specially since you seem fond of explaining your thoughts at length. But if you cut back on the flaming, I estimate your posts would be 20% shorter). Paulo Coelho has published a dozen books and is a best-selling author worldwide (there is no justice in the world, I tell you...) and his writing skills STILL suck, with no real grasp of the Portuguese language whatsoever. I'd probably not nag on you about this if you were polite, however. I have my pet peeves too, but I do my best to keep them OUT of the discussion so as to not derail the thread (and if I fail to do so it is from a lack of willpower, not courtesy).

Also, here's something for you to consider. Hypothetical scenario: the power's not called Wall of Fire, it's called Wall of Light (or Darkness, or whatever). It is identical in every way except for the title, fluff text and damage type. Is it still "undisputable" that it fits into the same description as hindering terrain because it's the most approximate thing?

This HAS been argued to death, to no real conclusion. I suppose we could try CustServ on this (if they haven't been tried already), though I don't really trust their rulings as far as I can toss them into a pit of lava.
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azbo

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2008, 10:11:08 PM »
IIRC, we had close the debate until errata. Until then, it's DM choice.

Now Azbo, you have roughly participated in 3 threads, and you have successfully flamed anyone that didn't agree with you. Can you please lower your testosterone level and be a little more mindful of others ? You are basically the new guy here and you aren't starting up thing very well.
Point taken.  Though moderately innaccurate I certainly am guilty of getting sucked into the flaming.  I repsonded to one of your posts as well as many others on here with no flames even if you disagree.  I'm capable of rational discussion without flames (look on the myths thread) I'm just not that willing to have "pseudo authorities" run me over with repeated postings of the same flawed logic.  They ask you to point out where their math is wrong, you do, and they skip it and move on to another personal attack.  It's a little annoying to have the same people keep posting the same obvious innaccuracy despite being shown the errors in their math.

Truthfully many of the threads I've contributed to had glaring errors in logic and math and that was coupled by angry young boys with a chip on their shoulder that being wrong on a forum was tantamount to a call for a duel.  You might want to look at which side of each equation is escalating the testosterone first.  There are a pair of ego-maniacal posters who think their own typed word is gospel.  I followed some links from this forum and SQLD is engaged in flames everywhere he goes.  From arguing that Cleric's can use holy avengers as holy symbols even though every class has it's list of possible implements defined in the class.  He took this to the next level by saying Custserv was wrong as well.  Though if you read cleric implements and paladin implements under the classes it's pretty clear in both RAW and RAI that cleric's can not use them.  He tries to take omission to mean permission.  I understand the circular logic used to get to clerics using them - the weapon says it's a holy symbol and clerics can use holy symbols therefore clerics can use HA's. It's still obvious that they can't, the most specific wording about HA's is that they're a special holy symbol that can be used with paladin powers from the implements section.  If they could be used with other powers they wouldn't specify paladin.  No where else under any type of implement does it specify like that and it's meant to eliminate clerics else why bother adding it?  He goes so far as to imply that until someone gets it put in errata he feels it's a printing error... Is this really a credible position?  He and I happen to be interested in the same topics so we're reading the same forums and some of his logic is so convoluted it's difficult to not reply.  Kuro is also in this same demographic as evidenced below.
Quote
Wall of text

Struck a nerve, much?

Don't worry, kid. I'm not going to act like your mother. Until you learn some proper respect, I will act like that uncle you used to really like but that stepped in when your parents failed to spank you. Except I won't be spanking you, that's the moderator's job (sorry Meg, couldn't resist).
This is pretty ridiculous even for you.  LOL @ calling me kid like your internet jab is getting under my skin? LOL no one is shooting at me you can assume I'm laughing at you.  call me kid if it makes you feel better. I'll call you internet superhero and we'll call it even.  I'm picturing you in your leotard and cape in the basement of your moms home typing as I write this. 

You could have thirteen PhDs and I'd still tell you to punctuate better (specially since you seem fond of explaining your thoughts at length. But if you cut back on the flaming, I estimate your posts would be 20% shorter). Paulo Coelho has published a dozen books and is a best-selling author worldwide (there is no justice in the world, I tell you...) and his writing skills STILL suck, with no real grasp of the Portuguese language whatsoever. I'd probably not nag on you about this if you were polite, however. I have my pet peeves too, but I do my best to keep them OUT of the discussion so as to not derail the thread (and if I fail to do so it is from a lack of willpower, not courtesy).
This is your excuse why it's ok for you to take the threads off topic with your pedantic flames and bad for me?  ok I'm on the same page now, only you are allowed to be condescending and aggressive.  incidently is the irony lost on you that half your posts in response to me are flames? 
Also, here's something for you to consider. Hypothetical scenario: the power's not called Wall of Fire, it's called Wall of Light (or Darkness, or whatever). It is identical in every way except for the title, fluff text and damage type. Is it still "undisputable" that it fits into the same description as hindering terrain because it's the most approximate thing?
is there a point here?  we're discussing wall of fire.  I would say no there's no difference other than you're transparently making up a hypothetical situation that is not in the list of examples given under hindering.  This is pretty simple stuff.  If it makes movement more difficult by one it's difficult.  If it causes damage it's hindering.  If it blocks movement it's probably blocking but could be hindering.  If it blocks LOS but does not change movement it's obscuring.  There's a highlighted box on the right of page 61 that you seem completely unable to read.  I'm open to your interpretation here please tell me what type or types you think the wall of darkness and wall of fire could be?  You have six choices.  I'm open to something being more than one type because nothing says it can't be.  Are you suggesting you would like to make a 7th type?  Or are you saying wall of fire is just regular terrain with no effect?  It really has to be one of those 3 choices.  Please define your position so everyone can read how you would rather obtusely defend a untenable position than change your mind or admit you're wrong.  Try answering this question for both WoF and your hypothetical WoD
A) new terrain as defined by kuro
B) one or more of 6 listed terrain feature types from page 61 (please be specific as to which type or types)
C) wall of fire is not terrain and should be treated as open ground for rule and effects.. 

We both know you won't answer this question as asked.  As does everyone else reading. You're like a slippery politician avoiding difficult questions.
This HAS been argued to death, to no real conclusion. I suppose we could try CustServ on this (if they haven't been tried already), though I don't really trust their rulings as far as I can toss them into a pit of lava.
Of course, everyone is wrong except you, this is a classic out that when eventually someone does get a custserv ruling it won't be what you want so you'll denegrate their authority ahead of time so you can continue to say you're not wrong. 
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 10:39:39 PM by azbo »

azbo

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2008, 08:38:30 AM »
Hey, laugh all you want, kid. It's good therapy. You seem like you could use some. (I'm already doing mine. It's working. Before, I'd go down to your level, really.)
Yes, clearly you're a bastion of mental health in the cult of "I spend all my time arguing on the net"
Frankly, I thought we were starting to reach a compromise somewhere on other threads, but then you go and fetch the flamethrower. The one thread in which I see you NOT running your mouth is, ironically, a thread I started, but the funny thing is that it's also the ONLY thread to which you contributed where no one happened to dispute your point.
You're laughable and a little pathetic to be honest.  I certainly won't be flaming anymore because you'll obviously never tire of this.  Your internet alter ego leotard clad superhero mentality won't let you.  Dispute?  You don't understand the first thing about logical discourse.  You're married to your position despite massive evidence you're in the wrong.  Completely and utterly in the wrong but like a slave to your childish ego you're continuing the fight.  Kudo's to you, "psuedo intellectual man" you can get a tight red shirt with PIM on the front and change in phone booths now.
I don't claim to be an expert in D&D. In fact, if anything, I'm here to LEARN. I dispute only what I disagree with for whatever reason, and I'll be the first guy to admit I'm wrong if I overlook errata or anything of that kind (refer to my reply to Dan2 above for an example).
LOL, Expert???  how about a moderately rational human who can read?  My 10 yr old daughter read the rules and was able to come to a conclusion in under 5 minutes that the wall of fire was best represented by the description of hindering terrain.

That said, you seem like you could be an excellent Troll: The Provoking player. But I'd best not bet, lest I lose. I'd have to pull you into this once I'm absolutely certain.
You're the text book definition of a troll.  You not only repeatedly engage in endless logical fallacy as a means to promoting your position, you're now projecting your behaviors on to me.  You talk condescendingly to everyone that disagrees with you on every forum.  You also attempt to steam roll people who disagree with you through endless attacks and annoyingly repetive posts.
Oh, and the reply is C), by the way. Wall of Fire is not terrain, it's a power. Really, why would you ask?
Well on the plus side you answered.  Wall of fire may very well be a power but once it's in a square would you say it severly punishes movement into that square? As per the DMG what type of terrain definition most closely resembles that?  It just occured to me that you probably have hopes of employing this very attack and thus you're married to the idea that defending the idea that a wall of fire filled square more closely resembles open ground than it does hindering terrain will keep this tactic viable.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to email CustServ like I suggested a post or so ago. Chances are I won't use the ruling they provide me with, because I place no faith at all in the ability of CustServ to provide an useful answer, or because my DM won't care (in the end, it boils down to that: it doesn't matter whether either of us "win" this debate, I'm only affected by what decisions are made for use on the table). But hey, I will share.
LOL at no faith.  Why bother writing?  By "chances are... <drivel> ... useful answer" you really mean unless by some shred of a prayer they come back with the ruling I like best they're idiots and to be discounted at every turn.

Meg

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Re: Can Wall of Fire and Thunderwave be abused like this?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2008, 02:49:24 PM »
This is an example of the type of thing that is not ok as per the Rules:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2.0
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