Gunfighter Disciple PrC

[Johannixx]

Code: [Select]

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Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Def Rep


1 +1 +0 +2 +0 Basic Discipline +1 +1
2 +2 +0 +3 +0 Clear Leather +1 +1
3 +3 +1 +3 +1 Mozambique Drill +2 +1
4 +4 +1 +4 +1 Defensive Position +2 +2
5 +5 +1 +4 +1 Intermediate Discipline         +3 +2
6 +6 +2 +5 +2 Weapon Specialization         +3 +2
7 +7 +2 +5 +2 Sharp-Shooter +4 +3
8 +8 +3 +6 +3 Greater Weapon Focus         +4 +3
9 +9 +3 +6 +3 Advanced Discipline +5 +3
10 +10 +3 +7 +3 El Presidente +5 +4


[backstabbist]

Are you sure you dont want to have a
-1 tohit Shame Penalty for using a minor caliber past 5th level Disciple? 

[nemafow]

The El Presidente skill would be a load of fun

[Johannixx]

Are you sure you dont want to have a
-1 tohit Shame Penalty for using a minor caliber past 5th level Disciple? 

Tempting, but no.  A true gunfighter can use whatever is at hand, though he prefers to use a real man's cartridge.

[Tema69]

Awesome, thanks for posting it, Johannixx.
I'd go with the bonus feats at 3rd, 6th and 9th, allowing more flexibility. And since several of the abilities are bonus feats already, it shouldn't be too hard.

[CBattles6]

First of all, a prestige class should only be 5 levels.  And since most of your class features are just bonus feats, it shouldn't be too hard to trim it down.

Here are my suggestions for the class (AdCs and PrCs are kinda my specialty...)

Requirements: A good rule of thumb is that Advanced Classes should have 2-4 requirement units, and Prestige Classes should have 5-7.  It's not an exact formula, but here is what constitutes a requirement unit based on my experience.
    1/2 RU: +2 BAB, skill 3 ranks, allegiance, specialty requirement
    1 RU: +3-4 BAB, skill 6 ranks, feat
    1 1/2 RU: skill 9 ranks, class feature from another class
    2 RU: +6-8 BAB, skill 12 ranks
So based on this, you've got around 13 RU, which is a little steep.  The BAB is good (boost it to +7 or +8), but I don't see how Repair and Spot are necessary skills (in that they aren't required in any of the class features).  Personal Firearms Proficiency is redundant (it's a prereq for Weapon Focus).  That bumps it down to 8 1/2, and I think the last bit of trim is Close Combat Shot.  If this is intended to be a PrC, most players will probably take levels in Gunslinger to get there, and this class feature is going to be a given.  For those characters who take another path, offer it as a free feat at 1st level (for characters that already have it, offer them the choice between Precise Shot, Quick Draw, and Quick Reload).

The key is to make sure there is more than one way to get to this class.  The requirements as you have them force characters to focus their character advancement from day one, and this limits exploration into all facets of the game.

The Class: Since most of the feats have been reduced (and we're working with 5 levels), we've got to reconfigure the class features.  The ones you've written work really well, so all we have to do is rearrange them.
    1st: Close Combat Shot (see above), Defensive Position
    2nd: Mozambique Drill
    3rd: Greater Weapon Specialization (+4 to damage rolls)
    4th: Sharp-Shooter
    5th: El Presidente
I combined all the bonus feats into Close Combat Shot.  The +2 for Weapon Specialization and +1 for Greater Weapon Focus aren't nearly enough for a character who is advanced enough to take a PrC (a Soldier gets those feats by at least 5th level).  Shot on the Run, to be honest, doesn't really fit in with the concept of your character; the Gunfighter seems to me to be more focused on quickness and close quarters, not running around.

Of course, these are just suggestions, but I think a PrC like this would allow those coming from Soldier and Gunslinger to learn some advanced tactics without having to worry about too much overlap.  Feel free to take or disregard these suggestions; I'd be the first to admit that I don't like when someone else comes in and messes with my vision.  Great start on the class - I appreciate someone else posting some new material (that everyone can use).  Once you get it finished, I'd be more than willing to create a finished .pdf for you.

[Johannixx]

Very insightful commentary, I always appreciate constructive criticism.

I'll have to take a while and think over all your suggestions, but I do have a few immediate counterpoints.

First, Shot on the Run is very appropriate to the class.  The actual shooting school on which I modeled the PrC (and most modern shooting schools/instructors as well) emphasizes shooting while moving, for multiple reasons.  From a self-defense standpoint, being able to put distance between you and your attacker ups your odds of avoiding a bullet.  Most thugs aren't world-class shooters, so every yard you put between you and them increases your chances of survival, while your superior marksmanship doesn't suffer as much from distance.  In short, they suffer more from distance than you do.  Plus, cover is very important, and the faster you get to cover, the better off you'll be.  So being able to engage targets while moving to cover is a good thing.

I've been on the fence about Repair.  I intended it to reflect that most people from this school tend to be savvy enough to maintain their own weapons, and that is generally represented by a Repair check in Modern.  Spot seemed like a gimme, since you have to locate your target in order to shoot it.  Plus, I needed some pre-reqs.

Most shooting schools teach similar basic concepts, and vary in their specific methodologies.  You have to be accurate enough to hit your target, fast enough to do it first, smart enough to use cover when possible and shoot from a position of retention in CQB, agile enough to shoot while moving and trained enough to manipulate the weapon by immediate reflex (i.e. reloading, clearing jams, drawing/aiming, etc).  Quick Reload, Shot on the Run, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Sharpshooting, Close Combat Shot and Defensive Position are all key elements in the structure, but people tend to master them in different orders depending on their focus and innate skill.  That's why I was leaning more towards bonus feats instead of prescribed feats as I originally posted.

[Nodaisho]

Crunchenticker is a new one for me, is that a real term, or you make it up?

The weapon focus shouldn't require any medium pistol, as by RAW, the 1911 is small, as are pretty much all combat handguns. I say the BAB requirement is good as-is, it already puts the minimum level for someone going straight fast/gunslinger at level 8, 9 if they only took 3 levels in fast.

I don't think that you would really need that many ranks in the skills, +9 spot is almost enough to beat someone without any skill ranks or dex bonus' take 20 with a take 10, without you having any wis bonus.

[Johannixx]

Ah crap, I meant Small or Medium, not Medium.  I'll remedy that.

[Tema69]

How about just Medium or smaller? I mean, isn't the deringer Tiny?

[Johannixx]

And yes, Crunchenticker is a real phrase coined by Jeff Cooper to describe a DA/SA handgun.  You get a crunchy, long first trigger pull, then short ticks for subsequent pulls.  He was a big opponent of double-action autos for that reason. 

[Nodaisho]

Huh, and yet he loved the CZ-75, despite it being a DA/SA 9mm. Or did he prefer the SAO version, which I can't remember the designation of?

[Johannixx]

You could carry the standard CZ-75 in Condition 1 mode if you so chose.  And while Cooper wasn't a big fan of the 9mm cartridge in general, he figured if you had to have one, the CZ-75 was hard to beat.

[Nodaisho]

So he had no problem with the tick, just with the crunch? Wouldn't that work for everything that isn't DAO? DA would just be back-up, in case of some situation where the hammer is down but you need to shoot, though I can't think of a situation where you would need that but can't cock it with your thumb, barring you losing said thumb in the gunfire.

I wonder if his endorsement gave impetus to the creation of the CZ-97B? Exotic Czech goodness with all of the down-home flavor of the .45ACP.

It seems kind of odd to me to have a 10-level class for improving pistol use, when just about anyone, especially Cooper's disciples, will tell you that the pistol is to get to the rifle. I think compressing it into a 5-level PrC would work better, than you could also have something to improve your rifle or shotgun use (hey, scattergunner and gunfighter disciple together?). As it is, it seems like it would be mainly for people that expect to have to slug it out with a pistol, not sure who that would be, maybe undercover cops and air marshals?

[Tema69]

I agree. Since a great number of the abilities are bonus feats, just smack it down to five levels, as Battles suggested.

[Johannixx]

So he had no problem with the tick, just with the crunch? Wouldn't that work for everything that isn't DAO? DA would just be back-up, in case of some situation where the hammer is down but you need to shoot, though I can't think of a situation where you would need that but can't cock it with your thumb, barring you losing said thumb in the gunfire.

The problem is, with the exception of the CZ-75, every other DA/SA gun of the time period combined a decocker with the safety.  Thus, you could carry a cocked and unlocked gun, or a decocked gun, but not a cocked and locked gun.  There are a few guns nowadays that allow both (The HK USP Variant 1 comes immediately to mind), but they're still rare.  So what Cooper objected to was the requirement that the first shot be long and crunchy, when the first shot is arguably the most important.

[Johannixx]

It seems kind of odd to me to have a 10-level class for improving pistol use, when just about anyone, especially Cooper's disciples, will tell you that the pistol is to get to the rifle. I think compressing it into a 5-level PrC would work better, than you could also have something to improve your rifle or shotgun use (hey, scattergunner and gunfighter disciple together?). As it is, it seems like it would be mainly for people that expect to have to slug it out with a pistol, not sure who that would be, maybe undercover cops and air marshals?

Ahh, but if you look closely, all of the Gunfighter Disciple's abilities are applicable to any firearm, with the exception of the Weapon Specialization and GWF feats and the El Presidente.  It's a holistic shooting class

[Nodaisho]

Why would someone combine a decocker with a safety? Isn't the safety safe enough? The decocker is for when you want to be able to just pull, but want some extra weight, though that could be a false reassurance, since a surprised squeeze would still likely cause a discharge, even with a glock.