Author Topic: What would a world without magic look like.  (Read 2713 times)

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kurashu

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What would a world without magic look like.
« on: August 29, 2008, 06:12:44 PM »
This more or less grew out of two things I've seen on different message boards. One was on EnWorld about a paladin following Yog-Sothoth (gods that don't give a rat's ass about the inhabitants of the world) and the other was the reverse of some world building practice on Wizards/Gleemax where psionics being allowed was debated. What if we removed the anchors of magic in a world. Arcane and divine magic are gone. In it's place, invocations, incarnum, binding and psionics as well as other mystical abilities (auras, maneuvers, et cetera) flourish. This goes a long way to balance the game (in a huge DM fiat way) but also presents some problems as well: what to do with half-casters and what happens to the power structure.

I've begun working on redesigning the paladin, bard, hexblade, ranger (possibly using the wildshape variant and the variant in CW) and contemplating if conversting the duskblade to one of these other systems is worth the effort. The new paladin resembles the threeway love child of marshal, knight and current paladin. The hexblade gains invocations and a buffed up curse and dark companion. The bard, I'm contemplating on giving invocations but I saw a thread about granting bard maneuvers so that maybe an option. I'm also weeding out other classes that are subpar (samurai, soulknife) or overlap too much with other classes as well (ninja and monk, divine mind and psychic warrior).

Right now this is me just garbling everything together from my mind. I'm working on putting this all together, but for now I'd like some comments and ideas about this. And have any of you ever done something like this before?

Arcane-surge

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Re: What would a world without magic look like.
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2008, 06:19:27 PM »
Well, my first thought is that Psion and Spell-to-Power Erudite become king of the hill when it comes to straight power, but that said, it's an interesting idea. There's a spell-less paladin variant in Complete Warrior. It sucks, but it's official.
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DaveoftheRave

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Re: What would a world without magic look like.
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2008, 08:36:55 PM »
For very low magic it is hard to beat conan d20.

It is worth a look over at least.

kurashu

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Re: What would a world without magic look like.
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2008, 01:42:21 AM »
I'm not trying to do a very low magic d20 though. I want to do a D&D world without the two main bastions of magic.

Here's what I have so far on the new paladin.

01 Smite 1/encounter, auras
02 Lay on hands, major aura +1
03 Bulwark of defense
04 Armor mastery (medium)
05 Smite 2/encounter, special aura
06 Vigilant defender, major aura +2
07 -
08 -
09 Armor mastery (heavy)
10 Smite 3/encounter, major aura +3
11 Dual aura
12 -
13 -
14 Major aura +4
15 Smite 4/encounter
16 -
17 Impetuous endurance
18 Major aura +5
19 -
20 Smite 5/encounter

Every class feature on the table is exactly the same as it would be on the class stolen from (marshal, knight or paladin). Same progression as marshal, except minor auras are limited by class level and he can have only one aura active at a time (minor or major). Special aura is one selected from the four auras provided by the paladins presented in UA, it is always active and works in the same way as the aura presented there and doesn't count as a minor/major aura. Dual aura is exactly as it sounds, he projects two auras at the same time.

Removed from paladin: special mount, cure disease, turn undead, spells, divine grace.

Psychic Robot

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Re: What would a world without magic look like.
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2008, 03:46:20 AM »
Without magic, D&D falls apart.  You'd have to re-work most of the Monster Manual, exponentially reducing CR as the numbers exploded (as they oft do in 3e).

Psions would kick ass, as would ardents.  (Well, they already do, but they would do so eve more.)  Soulknives would stop sucking and become not-crap.  Psychic warriors would still own them, of course, but that's not important.

Incarnum classes would work, I think.  I mean, the faux-paladin they have is still weak, but it can meldshape, so whatever.

...And that's about all I care to contribute, since I should be in bed.

Callix

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Re: What would a world without magic look like.
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2008, 09:18:51 AM »
Without magic, D&D falls apart.  You'd have to re-work most of the Monster Manual, exponentially reducing CR as the numbers exploded (as they oft do in 3e).

Psions would kick ass, as would ardents.  (Well, they already do, but they would do so eve more.)  Soulknives would stop sucking and become not-crap.  Psychic warriors would still own them, of course, but that's not important.

Incarnum classes would work, I think.  I mean, the faux-paladin they have is still weak, but it can meldshape, so whatever.

...And that's about all I care to contribute, since I should be in bed.
No, Soulknife would still suck. Rogues beat soulknives so bad it isn't funny.
Erudite, as the only Tier 1 classes, probably becomes nerfworthy; if spells don't work, I'd say Spell to Power doesn't either. Psions and supplemented Binders are Tier 2 though this tier is fairly thinned out. Ardents don't really change that much; they're fairly Tier 3 thanks to their restricted lists. The real thing in favour of Ardents is their lack of a maximum power level known in gish and dual-caster builds.

Also, you would as often as not need to *lower* monster CRs; most monsters are statted without gear, and have little to no actual spellcasting abilities. Dragons get heavily nerfed, but the Crystal, Planar and Incarnum dragons all work fine.

In terms of maink the world work, Psionics is the most likely base magic system, though the others would be used where they are stronger. Binders with Buer, possibly teamed with Incarnates, would take up healing, Shadowcasters could do the Beguiler-ish, Necromancer-ish stuff they wanted to all along, Totemists and Psywars become viable gishes without the cleric overshining them, and all the non-magical classes get their moment in the sun with the Tier 1 canopy removed.

Certain things become more and more lacking; there is very little magical ability to create/improve food without magic, so the world is likely to be more agrarian. Also, psionics is less effective at big, splashy effects, so mass warfare becomes less useless. Finally, without a power source that responds only to worship or dedicated study, bards, rogues and experts rise to fill most of the social power roles, where their skils can come to the fore. Incarnates and Psions will take a few of these roles, but psions are less history-oriented than wizards, giving bards a bit of breathing space, and incarnates tend to have bigger things on their minds than running cities (unless they're Lawful, that is...).
I know gameology-fu.

Psychic Robot

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Re: What would a world without magic look like.
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2008, 05:18:33 PM »
Yeah, I was thinking that the OP meant a world without magic items when I wrote that.  I'll just pretend I was inebriated.

Nox_Noctis

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Re: What would a world without magic look like.
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2008, 09:33:39 PM »
Another side-effect: Artificers are in high demand. Someone has to craft all those magical items that divine and arcane casters can no longer make (since they no longer exist). Now, granted, this doesn't change the world that much since Artificers are the primary artisans anyway, but there are some small changes. It does make being an artificer a very lucrative prospect. This, in turn, however, will cause more people to try to become Artificers and prices will eventually stabilize once the supply and demand of artisans equalizes.
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kurashu

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Re: What would a world without magic look like.
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2008, 04:14:12 AM »
I'd agree that spell-to-power Erudite is nerfed with no spells.

I hadn't thought about including Shadowcasters. And come to think of it, I do have some shadow magic classes cooked up already, too, for when I was going to expanded shadow magic. A paladin type, a rouge type and twenty level shadowsmith class. In fact, I was considering not including these classes since they seemed close to arcane and divine magic. But if the controling the shadow is controlling the object angle, it is completely different.

Any ideas on renovating the bard into a spell free system? Manuevers feel wrong and invocations feel not right.

Midnight_v

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Re: What would a world without magic look like.
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2008, 07:17:18 PM »
Hmm... woudln't it be simpler just to get rid of all "Full Casters" and be done with it? Like basically the ultimate situation is that. So why not just leave it at that?
I mean I find the idea interesting but it seems like an awful lot of work for something that *might* turn out cool. Just a thought.

Still though, at that point the bard would be more like the Rokugan class the "Courtier" or something.
I mean you are saying you want a spelless bard, right? Or are you looking for a variant spell system for the bard? I think at that point the bard would get the class features of the Exemplar Prc and maybe leadership stuff... "all allies get..." kind of like a Marshal but singing. . .
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kurashu

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Re: What would a world without magic look like.
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2008, 07:33:45 PM »
Either completely magic free or a variant system. Using the exemplar and leadership is a good idea. I'm gonna hammer this out and I'll post it when I get done. And yes, it is a lot of work but it's something I want to do.