Author Topic: Rules Discussions  (Read 27685 times)

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EjoThims

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Re: [3.5] Verold: Rats
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2008, 06:51:53 AM »
How about a Fort save or be sickened, or some other upfront debuff? Add the Hexblade's curse, a way to demoralise at speed, then use the poisoned weapons when they're at -6 or more to all saves, attacks and checks. It works for the PCs, but doesn't just break itself.

That I rather like.

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[3.5] Verold: Barbarian and Variants
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2008, 02:32:27 PM »
Monks are a class which is not good.  There are two reasons for this.  First, Monk Abilities are not good.  Second, Monk Abilities do not work.  

1: Monk Abilities are not good.

Basically, monks are supposed to be mobile, resilient strikers.  They're supposed to deliver damage in melee, and they're supposed to deliver it anywhere, anytime, and not to be stopped.  However, there's a fundamental problem.  Their offense is not good.  It is in fact *so* not good that all thier other strengths fade into irrelevance.  

Let's start with "to hit" bonuses, and do a comparison at, say, level 10.  Pulling numbers out of my hat, let's say that the monk fighting unarmed has a 16 base STR, a +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists, and a +2 Gauntlets of ogre power.  Let's compare him to a barbarian with an 18 base STR, +4 STR from rage, +4 Belt of Strength, and a +3 greatsword.  

The monk is +13 to hit.  The Barbarian is +21.  This means that an enemy which a barbarian hits on 10s, the monk hits on 18s.  Flurry of misses indeed.  Or, if the Monk hits on 10s, the Barbarian hits on 2s. (Power Attack, baby!)

A Monk simply can't hit level-appropriate foes, and his damage f he did is nothing special.  This makes his movement irrelevant.  Sure, you can't run from a monk, but why would you want to?  Just stand there and let him pummel you uselessly.  His supposed defensive resilience doesn't matter either.  Sure, maybe you can't Hold a monk, but why would you bother?  Use it on a fighter or rogue or even cleric instead.

2: Monk abilities don't work.  

But the extent to which the monk levels up to him "mobile and resilient" reputation is also... disappointing.  Let's review a few abilities.  

Fast Movement:  A first level Monk is slower than a Barbarian, equally mobile as a rogue.  At 3-5th level, theyre tied with barbarians, longstriding rangers/druids, etc.  A monk needs to get to level nine before he can outrun a wolf , at which points a wizard or bard matches him with Expeditious Retreat, or the whole party can go as fast is he pops off a Haste.  

Slow Fall: This ability will protect from pit traps, I guess, but in my games falling damage is more likely the result of being chucked off a floating platform or airship.  In any case, this ability, at its highest level fo effect, is worse than the 1st-level spell Feather Fall.  Monks should just get Feather Fall.  

Ki Strike: 4th level is a little late for Magic to come, IMHO.  It should come at third, when enemies who need it and magic weapons are starting to show up.  Ki strike (Lawful) affects ONE monster in the monster manual, IIRC.  Ki Strike (Adamantine) is cool, but too little too late.  In any case, this ability doesn't go nearly far enough, at least for people who want to fight strictly unarmed.  Using weapons is actually a good deal for monks, and so is carrying a golf bag of different weapons, but this illustrates further how badly monks are screwed.  They should have given them Ki Strike (Good), Ghost Touch, and maybe Cold Iron as well.  

Argh, must run... conclusion to follow


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Re: [3.5] Verold: Vipers
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2008, 06:59:37 PM »
One thing the viper bard does have: +6 to Perform (Dance) and a racial sub-level that lets them use Fascinate in-combat. Go bard tanking!

OTOH, I could easily see the humanoid form being Small, rather than Tiny, which would let you do a couple of other things as well. Tiny PCs are really full-caster or bust, with the exception of the melee Killer Gnome.
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AfterCrescent

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[3.5] Verold: Custom Campaign/Ruleset
« Reply #63 on: September 02, 2008, 01:39:44 AM »
As per EjoThims' request, specifics regarding the Verold campaign PbP has been moved to the Verold PbP subforum.
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EjoThims

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[3.5] Verold: Barbarian and Variants
« Reply #64 on: September 02, 2008, 02:09:57 AM »
A Monk simply can't hit level-appropriate foes, and his damage f he did is nothing special.

It's actually possible to optimize Monks for crazy damage and to hit, though it usually requires Pounce and abusing flurry to generate a lot of attacks at full BAB.

This is why I changed the Chaos Monk flurry to a Full Attack instead of a Full Round, so that it is also usable with pounce.

I'd like to bring them more in line with other skirmishers though, but not by buffing just their RaW damage. I want their mobility/utility role to work how it should.

Fast Movement:  A first level Monk is slower than a Barbarian, equally mobile as a rogue.  At 3-5th level, theyre tied with barbarians, longstriding rangers/druids, etc.  A monk needs to get to level nine before he can outrun a wolf , at which points a wizard or bard matches him with Expeditious Retreat, or the whole party can go as fast is he pops off a Haste.

Yea, I'll probably add 10 to the progression across the board. Remember though, that for this game, that Speed Boost works in Animal and Hybrid forms as well.

Slow Fall... at its highest level fo effect, is worse than the 1st-level spell Feather Fall.

One of the houserules I do is that Slow Fall is Slow Fall, walls don't matter. When I remember, I'll add that to the class. I'll also reflavor it so it's not actually slow, maybe add a feat or two ala Battle Jump to synergize with it. Combined with a good Tumble and Jump check, it means Monks can fall for about 150ft before taking any damage by level 20.

They should have given them Ki Strike (Good), Ghost Touch, and maybe Cold Iron as well.

I like that list. But I think I'll make it Magic/Aligned, Silver-or-Cold Iron/Ghost Touch, and then Metalline.

EjoThims

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Re: [3.5] Verold: Vipers
« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2008, 02:12:40 AM »
One thing the viper bard does have: +6 to Perform (Dance) and a racial sub-level that lets them use Fascinate in-combat. Go bard tanking!

As well as a racial ability even without the sub levels to use dance in place of sound for bardic music (giving a higher check result with racials) and the ability to cast Mass Otto's Irresistible Dance as part of that in combat Fascinate.

OTOH, I could easily see the humanoid form being Small, rather than Tiny, which would let you do a couple of other things as well. Tiny PCs are really full-caster or bust, with the exception of the melee Killer Gnome.

I may consider making them small in humanoid form with the squeeze, then tiny in the others...

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Re: [3.5] Verold: Wolves
« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2008, 05:12:48 AM »
Okay, so I'm using your listed order to start analyzing these races. That means I am starting with the wolf.

Also, as I've never analyzed homebrewed races before, I'm going to develop a point system to critique. Let's see how it goes. :P

As a final caveat, remember that I firmly believe magic >>>>>>> everything in D&D. Just want to be clear on my biases :P

Wolves:
Humanoid (Shapechanger) - I like the flavor :P However, I firmly believe that the shapechanger subtype (since it beats the hell out of strong spells like Baleful Polymorph) is stronger than just being humanoid. So let's give it a 1 point on this new point system.

+2 to any 3 abilities - Okay, here's where another bias comes in. Charisma is a weak stat. All other stats are stronger. Now I need to establish the pecking order. Str is good, but arguably weaker than Dex. Con determines bonus HP, and affects 1 save. An important stat, but not one that affects a save, lots of skills, Armor Class, Initiative, and even attacks. So Dex beats that.  Int affects number of skill points and is a casting stat, so it ranks up there with Dex (because Magic >>>>>>> everything, right?). So pecking order: Dex & Int > Str, Con, & Wis (Casting stat) > Cha. Now how much better is debatable, but I don't think anything is more than twice as worth something else, so here's where I'm assigning points. Top gets 1.5, mid-tier gets 1 and Cha gets .5 points. So +2 to Con equates to 1 point. Now wolves can get the best two stats and one of the others. That's 4 points. (5) - Total will be in () now... :P

Oh, incase I didn't state it already, I'll be analyzing the races from an optimal standpoint. :D

+4 survival and Listen - Racial bonuses are usually +4, so we're good there. And I'd say two racial skill boosts are worth a +1. (6)

Scent - Awesome ability, clearly a +1. And since your racial bonus boosts this (Scent is based off survival), I'm going to ad hoc a .5 here. (7.5)

Bonus Feat - Good. +1 (8.5)

1 Bonus skill point each level - To make sense, this should be like humans and be quadruple at first level. +1 (9.5)

Canine Dominance - An odd ability to judge. If I max intimidate, I lose out on the ability to Diplomacize, but then again, I get free intimidate ranks, basically. However, these only work on non-wolf canines. Does this apply to the non-wolf canine clans? Or only those of the animal type? If you're doing to balance it (which I think you should). Make the penalty to diplomacy equal to character level, just like the bonus to intimidate.  Wolves aren't nice, is what this ability says, and it should say it, not waver. :P If so, it's a penalty countered by a plus, +1/-1. (9.5)

Hybrid Form - Clearly at least +1.  Hunched charge is +1, especially since two handed weapons can be held 1 handed while moving. Dominance is a second bonus with no penalty. +1. The stats are +6. +1-5 Nat armor is a level adjustment, IIRC, so I'll just list something in that range as +1 point. +2 for two different attacks. Fast Healing is +1. For trip, first off take off the check modifier, since that's a copy from wolf stats in the MM. So another +1. Hybrid gives +13 points. o.O Now the limit is once per day for every two level, so by 8th level it's the standard 4 combats/day. and it lasts 8+con mod in minutes, which is plenty of time. At low level it's a bit weak, but 4 combats per day is a bit much at low level, too... I'd say hybrid is a +12 total, because there some limitations, but now much. (21.5)

+2 Disguise and Bluff Checks - Weak skill boosts, actually. Together it's +4, so I'll say it's .5 points (22)

Pack Fighting - Good ability, +1. (23)

Medium size and 30' speed is normal. No change, there. :D

Animal form is medium with a 50' base speed. The speed I accounted for in hybrid, under hunched charge, so no change there.  Same with the stats, since animal stats don't stack with hybrid.

The natural attack of 1d6 was accounted for and I think 2 attacks at 1d4 is equivalent to one at 1d6, if a bit stronger. But the hybrid counters it, so I'm okay with the +1 already accounted for. Same with trip.

So that leaves my total count at 23 points with a LA+1. I don't know what a level adjustment would be in negative points, but we'll see how the others balance out.
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Re: [3.5] Verold: Bears
« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2008, 05:13:15 AM »
Bears:
Humanoid (Shapechanger) = +1.
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Dex - Going by my established list, we're at -1 (0).
+4 swim is .5 points. (.5)
Scent = +1. (1.5)
Imp. Grapple is a bonus feat, so +1 again. :D (2.5)
Base size and speed is normal too. Powerful build is a +1, clearly. (3.5)
Animal Form has a speed increase, +1. (4.5)
+4 Str, + 4 Con - +4 (8.5)
Natural armor is +1 (9.5)
Natural attacks are like the wolf, but two steps higher... Hrm. So a 1d6 natural attack is +1, So 2d6 would be +3? Sure, let's go there. Same with the claws, except that the claws are not limited to hybrid, so a bit better... say .5 better? So 6.5 total instead of the +2 the wolf had. (16)

Now bears at 16 and wolves at 23. That puts LA+1 at ~ 7 points. That may be an analysis, let's continue to the next race.
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Re: [3.5] Verold: Boars
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2008, 05:13:42 AM »
Boars:
+1 base for type, which I assume is also Humanoid (Shapechanger). Probably want to specify. ;)
With the stats taking such a huge boost we're actually at -1 total, so back to a base of 0.
Initiative is amazing, but +2 is not a feat, it's 1/2 a feat, so +.5 (.5)
Scent. (1.5)
Ferocity - AMAZING. Mix with Delay Death for near immortality. Combined with anything that makes you not die at -10 and you're golden. (2.5)
Endurance is similar to racial skills, so +1. (3.5)
Stability is a good solid ability. (4.5)
The speed penalty is a minor setback, I'd wager .5 (4).
The speed increase from animal form brings it up again. (5)
Powerful charge is a unique ability. usually it deals double damage. Why the change? As is, I'm not sure it's worth the whole +1. (5.5)
Ground - ??? A good way to add a racial bonus to an attack. Flavorful, but weak. .5 (6)
Stats bring it 10 total.
The armor bonus breaks the limit I sent, so I'll add another for +2 (12).
The gore is 1/2 step better than the bite of the bear. However a bite does 3 types of damage and the gore only does piercing, so let's leave it the same at +3... (15)

8 points below the wolf. So either ~8-9 is a LA and the bear is a strong LA+0 or the boar is weak . We'll see. :D
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 05:29:41 AM by AfterCrescent »
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Re: [3.5] Verold: Foxes
« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2008, 05:14:37 AM »
Fox:
+1 for type.
+.5 for stats.
The sense motive is limited, but better than +4, so that may cancel out. With bluff that'll be a +1 (2.5).
Eschew materials is a feat, even a limited and weak one. It's bonus is to magic, so yeah, +1, because magic is worth more. (3.5)
Deceitful Spellcasting... This is a tough one. Bluff v Sense Motive for most casters is a giant boost. Sense Motive is not a class skill for most casters, and Wis based classes don't get many skill points... And since they can eschew, and will likely find a way to get rid of a verbal or somantic component, they'll not take a penalty, or a minor one, if any.  Ah, spellcraft. Okay, that's a good compromise, since any caster will have it maxed. Still, sneak attack against flat-footed, penalty to reflex and being unaware of spellcasting... That's a lot. Not to mention there's no limit, so a Fox does this against EVERYONE at once. Wow.  Completely adhoc here, but Bluff +1, Unaware, +1, Flat-footed +1, Reflex penalty +1, and overall a good ability +1. +5 yeah. I think this ability may be that damn good. (8.5)
Spell focus = +1 (9.5)
Scent (10.5)
Small with a base speed of 20 is normal for some, so that's fine.
Speed boost in animal form. Nice, especially since it's a small creature still (11.5)
Stats in animal form are +3.5 (15).
Listen with the small bite total +1 and the natural armor is weak, but still fits in. (17).

Foxes were designed to be excellent casters, much like bears were designed to be excellent combatants. It's a shame magic beats everything. So yeah, 17 makes sense, it should be naturally higher than the bear and it is.
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Re: [3.5] Verold: Vipers
« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2008, 05:14:55 AM »
Viper:
+1 base.
+1 Stat
Natural Performer is a +1.
Combine the sad ability of knowledge History with Low light vision to get a +1 (possibly a .5, if I decide the total is a bit low). (4)
Viper's Wriggle is a strong +1, so I don't think the above will be reduced. (5)
Scent +1 (6)
Tiny with a 20' base seems pretty impressive, for casters. And the stats support that. +.5 (6.5)
A viper's breath weapon is terrible. The standard viper has a bite for 1d6 Con. Stick with that. Keep the save, make it only a primary effect, no secondary. 1d6 con with a 20' range, even with a save for negate is not bad. (7.5)
Movement boosts are +1 (8.5)
Dex is +4.5 (13)
Natural Armor brings us to 14. Natural attack is .5 and the simplest way is to just use the basic 1d6 Con for initial and secondary damage. When used to spit you don't do bite damage and you don't get a secondary effect. It's easier to track if they're the same poison. +1.

Vipers are 15.5. Solid choices, me thinks. They're not as strong as the dirty Fox :P but they're good. And I think we're seeing that the boar is kind of weak. This may be an issue.
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Re: [3.5] Verold: Ferrets
« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2008, 05:15:13 AM »
Ferret:
+1 Base with +0 Stats.
The skill boosts, saving throw, and low light vision seem to make a 1.5 to me. Nothing specific for a +1, but not weak in and of themselves, maybe a +2, but I'll up it if it feels low.
Graceful strike is +2. Add dex to attack and damage is sexy. Super sexy even. (4.5)
Dodge feat is +1 (5.5)
Diversification is hard, but PrC is not. makes casting PrCs not be taken all the way through early. I don't think it's a penalty or a boost. If anything, I'd lower it by .5 but I doubt it. So now my final may vary by .5 up or down. Ferrets are weird. :P
Size and speed is solid
Base speed for animal form doesn't seem to deserve a bonus.
Stats are 4.5 (10)
Scent +1, Nat armor, too. (12)
What's the DC on the Natural attack to stop the bleeding? Specify it please. :D (13) I figure the bite is weaker, but the ability is nice, so we'll make it a solid +1.
slight build is nice, especially since the wording makes it count for AC and such, so +1. (14)

Ferrets are on par with boars... Maybe the other three are just too good? Heh. Maybe. I think ferrets are a bit better than boars, though, but I'm not sure how. ???
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Re: [3.5] Verold: Rats
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2008, 05:15:30 AM »
Rats:
+1 with 1.5 in stats...
+8 to two skills? Nice +2 (4.5)
More skill boosts? (5.5)
Low light vision isn't amazing, but worth a bit. Scent ups it, too. (7)
Weapon Finesse is a nice bonus feat. (8)
Disease is weak, but useable. More fluff than anything. (8.5)
Animal form gets a speed boost and movement speeds. The movement speeds aren't great though, so together I'd say 1.5. If that seems wrong to someone, add another .5 to your mental count here. (10)
+5.5 in animal form for stats. (15.5)
Natural armor and a weak natural attack is 1.5 (17).

Rats are on par with Foxes? Yeah. They make stealthy builds crazy with their dex boosts and skill boosts. In reality, though, to keep this on par, they should have the ability to use dex instead of str for swim and climb, as per real rats. :P
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Re: [3.5] Verold: Tigers
« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2008, 05:15:50 AM »
Tigers:
A) I love tigers.
B) Let's do this! :P
+1 base.
+3 stats (4)
+3 for the skills. The taking 10 and half penalty up the normal count, so +3 instead of +2. (7)
Scent (8).
Pounce is so fucking good it makes me weep. The -4 penalty to AC actually negates the charge bonus and weakens that attack plus the full attack. The AC hit hurts too. +1 is my guess for the weakened pounce. (9)
High base speed (10)
Animal form isn't any faster? Odd...
+5 for animal stats (15).
+1 for Natural armor and according to my ranking of the bear, we have +6.5 for the attacks in animal form. (22.5)

Tigers are a 22.5! They're awesome. They make a good ANYTHING. I don't want you to, but they may need a toning down.
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Re: [3.5] Verold: Ravens
« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2008, 05:16:08 AM »
Raven:
+1 base and +3.5 stats (4.5)
+.5 For racial skills (5)
Dedicated Research is so fucking good it makes Knowledge Devotion builds orgasm uncontrollably. +2 (7)
Magic Familiarity is +1.5, because magic is that good. and low light vision brings it to a solid +2 (9)
Tireless research has the potential to be abused. Money abuse is crazy. (10)
Fly speed is a +1 (11)
+4 for animal stats (15)
+1.5 for nat armor and claws weaker than the wolves' claws.

16.5 For Raven. So your balance point is 16-17, I think. If this is true, and I think it is, you'll need to modify appropriately. If you agree with this, I'll see what I can do to help. :D
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Re: [3.5] Verold: Coyotes
« Reply #75 on: September 02, 2008, 05:16:26 AM »
Coyote:
+3 (base and Wis)
+1 stat boost (4)
Healing is crap. Make it heal 1HP/Character level and we're starting to get a +.5 (4.5)
Animal Empathy (5.5)
Scent (6.5)
LLV (7)
Dog Companion is crap. It's a target that dies often. Make it as your character level and you get something worth keeping around for a bit. basically for recon only. So when you do that, it'll be worth +1. As it is, it's not even worth .5 (8).
Small size? You shrink in animal form? Coyotes should be medium like wolves, especially with the speed boost. (9)
1/2 racial point for listen (9.5)
+5 from stats, which, by the way, are nice. (14.5)
Natural armor and a bite makes it to 16.5, which is the balance point I explained under Raven. Nice

So yeah, Dog Companion needs a boost, as does healing, and animal form should probably be medium. Once done, they're well balanced, imo.
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Re: [3.5] Verold: Pythons
« Reply #76 on: September 02, 2008, 05:16:41 AM »
Python:
+1 base.
+1 Stat. (2)
+1.5 racial bonus (3.5)
+1 Wrestling (4.5)
+.5 Intimidate (5)
+1 for battle sense, it's half a racial skill bonus and half a combat reflexes feat. (6)
Scent (7)
Good base speed/size.
The slow down counteracts the movement modes to some extent, so only .5 increase (7.5)
+4 animal stats (11.5)
+1 Armor (12.5)
Improved grab is a feat (13.5)
Constrict is nice, can I bite and constrict in the same round? Needs to specify (here's a hint, yes!) So assuming that, we get another +1, and the bite is a +3. (17.5)

A bit strong, but not bad, Intimidate isn't as good as you think it is, so it's a low 17.5, which puts it close to the range of 16-17 you want. :D Good stuff, imo. You could just lower the bite to 1d8 and allow a bite/constrict combo and you'd be well balanced.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: [3.5] Verold: Cranes
« Reply #77 on: September 02, 2008, 05:16:59 AM »
Crane:
+1 Base
+1 Stat (2)
+1.5 Racial skill boosts (3.5)
+.5 for Bureaucracy (4)
All in good order can be used well, especially if most wolves are chaotic, if not necessarily evil. Since it seems campaign useful, I'd say +1, although in a normal game that may not be the case. (5)
Zeal is +1 and LLV is .5 (6.5)
Fly is another +1 (7.5)
3.5 for stats in animal form. (11)
+1 armor and +1 for the weak natural attacks and spot boost (13)

Cranes are INCREDIBLY weak. Please power them up. Via stats or something else, I'm not sure. But they suck right now. Combine with the relatively weak favored class (Paladin) and they make me sad. :( Very sad. :(

Okay, since cranes are last, they get my summary.
Wolf (23) A LA should be about +5, I've decided. So assuming the range is around 17, wolves are +6, so that's not bad. They're a strong LA+1. Yup. Makes sense to me.
Bear (16) Seeing as the range is 16-17 Bears are good and don't need changing.
Boar (15) We see now the boar is weak. They need some help.
Fox (17) They seem powerful, but this game is powerful, so they're not too bad. Just really good casters. :D
Viper (15.5) Remember this number assumes you are making the poison changes I suggest. I think they'll be okay at their 15.5 if there are some options to optimize the poison. being able to use poison at will is nice.
Ferret (14) See the boar. It's weaker, and needs a boost. :D
Rat (17) Good stuff. I think they're fine.
Tiger (22.5) Let's just give them a level adjustment and leave them alone. They make sense, even if they are fairly strong.
Raven (16.5) Right in the middle of the ideal range. Good.
Coyote (16.5) Same as Raven, assuming you make the changes I suggest. :D I like them there.
Python (17.5) A good position for it with some minor clarification. That is, of course, my opinion.
Crane (13) Something weaker than a ferret? I am most sad. Most sad :(
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 05:30:48 AM by AfterCrescent »
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EjoThims

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Re: [3.5] Verold: Boars
« Reply #78 on: September 02, 2008, 05:56:32 AM »
Updated with a more powerful Powerful Charge version and the subtype added.

AfterCrescent

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Re: [3.5] Verold: Boars
« Reply #79 on: September 02, 2008, 05:59:04 AM »
Better. A 16.5-17 easy, now. :D
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Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie