Author Topic: Rules Discussions  (Read 27767 times)

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DetectiveJabsco

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Rules Discussions
« on: July 04, 2008, 12:42:51 PM »
I have not read through all of it, but can this not be accomplished more proficiently as a PW?
Also, some of the Rule text is ambiguous.

I like the idea though, it just seams like it can be done already using other classes.

EjoThims

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Classes Discussions
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2008, 01:04:38 PM »
As I am considering the Classes that have been consolidated essentially finalized, I have consolidated all the discussions on them here.

Further input is still appreciated, but short of some glaring oversight, major overhauls are unlikely at this point.

I need more input on the other classes to get them polished and ready.

Chemus

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Re: [3.5]Psychic Archer
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2008, 07:52:27 PM »
Nicely done; there's a lot of TK flavor in there.

Why energy orbs? Why not force? Or just untyped? "...acts as an orb of acid, except that the damage is not acidic." Or something like that.

It seems kinda one-track.

Also, there's a button for preformatted text () on the toolbar that works well for tables (better than 'Code' tags).
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EjoThims

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Re: [3.5]Psychic Archer
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2008, 10:16:36 PM »
Nicely done; there's a lot of TK flavor in there.

I don't quite get the reference, but I'll take any compliments I find.  :D

Why energy orbs? Why not force? Or just untyped? "...acts as an orb of acid, except that the damage is not acidic." Or something like that.

I wanted some variety on the theme, and a hint of the 'mystic' type psionics.

It seems kinda one-track.

Yes. Though with smart play in a campaign where you're fighting mainly humanoids instead of monsters (such as the one it was made for), it can be well used as a controller or support in addition to a mere blaster.

Also, there's a button for preformatted text () on the toolbar that works well for tables (better than 'Code' tags).

Wish I'd known that before, though, truth be told, I haven't made the table in word yet either... Tables give me trouble no matter what I'm using for them.  ???

Chemus

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Re: [3.5]Psychic Archer
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2008, 06:20:07 AM »
Just use a (can't remember the phrase for it, so bear with me) single width font, like Courier New and then use either spaces or tabs to make your table in lines while in Word, then paste here. Alternately, you can just Quote and modify this to your needs:
   BAB  Fort    Ref    Will  Abilities    Spells Per Day
                                          0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1. +0    +0     +0     +2    Bonus Feat   3 - - - - - - - - -
2. +1    +0     +0     +3                 3 0 - - - - - - - -
3. +1    +1     +1     +3                 4 0 - - - - - - - -
4. +2    +1     +1     +4                 4 1 - - - - - - - -
5. +2    +1     +1     +4    Bonus Feat   4 1 0 - - - - - - -
6. +3    +2     +2     +5                 5 1 0 - - - - - - -
7. +3    +2     +2     +5                 5 2 1 - - - - - - -
8. +4    +2     +2     +6                 5 2 1 0 - - - - - -
9. +4    +3     +3     +6                 5 2 1 0 - - - - - -
10.+5    +3     +3     +7    Bonus Feat   6 2 2 1 - - - - - -
11.+5    +3     +3     +7                 6 3 2 1 0 - - - - -
12.+6    +4     +4     +8                 6 3 2 1 0 - - - - -
13.+6    +4     +4     +8                 6 3 2 2 1 - - - - -
14.+7    +4     +4     +9                 6 3 3 2 1 0 - - - -
15.+7    +5     +5     +9    Bonus Feat   7 3 3 2 1 0 - - - -
16.+8    +5     +5     +10                7 4 3 2 2 1 - - - -
17.+8    +5     +5     +10                7 4 3 3 2 1 0 - - -
18.+9    +6     +6     +11                7 4 3 3 2 1 0 - - -
19.+9    +6     +6     +11                7 4 4 3 2 2 1 - - -
20.+10   +6     +6     +12   Bonus Feat   7 4 4 3 3 2 1 0 - -


Oh, and I meant TeleKineticist flavor.

The energy just seems off for me. Not a real issue, just not telekinetic. Balance looks OK.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 06:29:58 AM by Chemus »
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EjoThims

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Re: [3.5]Psychic Archer
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2008, 12:37:28 PM »
Yea... At first I was a little against it, but it allows, I think, for a better scaling mechanic without having to add bonus damage to weapons and get into thing too complicated to want to track. I just see it kind of as them literally becoming so good that they are moving the energy around, concentrating it out of the air, and then flinging it at people.

Also, thanks for the sample table, I'll update with it later.  :D

EjoThims

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Re: [3.5]Psychic Archer
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2008, 09:28:04 AM »
Updated with some better formatting and some feats.

EjoThims

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Re: [3.5]Psychic Archer
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2008, 10:57:11 AM »
Any other thoughts on the balance?

EjoThims

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Re: [3.5]Psychic Archer
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2008, 12:41:30 PM »
Updated with new feats, some balance changes, and slightly better Energy Ball mechanics, including the delay of damage types other than force to a latter level.

Added Jump and Move to the skill set too, since it was a little lacking and Hide is slightly a bummer without Move.

skydragonknight

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Re: [3.5]Psychic Archer
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2008, 01:50:07 AM »
Psy Archer vs. PsyWar

BAB = Psywar
Saves = slightly better. Will is about equal to Fort and Ref is weaker than Fort or Will.
Hit dice = worse, but not a melee character so expected
Skills = slightly better. between a psywar and Ranger, 4+ is very appropriate

Alright, before special abilities it's balanced with Psywar. Now to check out the specials.
[Spoiler]
Quote
Psionic (Ps): Psychic Archers use psionic powers, and gain one power point at 1st level. This allows them to maintain a psionic focus.
Any reason why you didn't just give Wild Talent as a bonus feat like Soulknife?

Quote
Telekinesis (Ps):
You're going to need either rules for the disarm check modifier.

Quote
Telekinetic Shot (Ps): Starting at 1st level, a Psychic Archer can, as a standard action, make a ranged attack with any object he is carrying with telekinesis. This deals 1d3 damage to the target, or 1d4 damage to a creature (who takes this damage even if the attack misses) used in this manner. Objects used in this way have a range increment equal to 20'. Squares and objects can be targeted by this attack as well. If the object is a ranged weapon or ammunition that the Psychic Archer is proficient with, this attack instead deals damage and has a range increment appropriate for the weapon or ammunition. This attack gains no bonus damage from strength. Ammunition used in this way is destroyed as normal. Objects used in this manner are dropped. This ability can be used non-violently to move objects to a destination within range and place them, as well.

At 9th level, the Psychic Archer can use Telekinetic Shot as an attack action, allowing him to launch multiple objects each round when making a full attack.
Any damage increases for object weight? Best to specify one way or the other.

Quote
Energy Ball (Ps):

No limit besides the limit on the number of objects picked up? Sorta negates the need for normal ammunition, making it a very gear-independant class.
The actions hurt at lower levels.

Quote
Adaptive Energy Ball (Ps): Starting at 5th level, a Psychic Archer can, once a round, expend his psionic focus to add a burst of telekinetic power when striking with an energy ball.
Expending Psionic Focus causes the energy ball to dissapate though. Conflicting mechanic.

Quote
Forceful: At 5th level, the Psychic Archer can make his energy balls strike with a force that knocks opponents back. If the energy ball successfully hits, the Psychic Archer makes a special Bull Rush attempt, adding his Cha in place of Str, and gaining a bonus equal to the damage done by the attack.
This is limited to 1/round? Otherwise could be interesting.

Quote
I'm not sure I like a save vs. Stun that scales with damage, even if it's M-A. And I really hope this is 1/round.

Quote
Explosive: At 15th level, the Psychic Archer can cause his energy balls to violently explode
I highlighted what caused me to laugh out loud.  Even when comboed with other abilities, the double-save mechanic prevents abuse. Go explode your balls: I won't stop you.

Quote
Returning Telekinesis (Ps): At 5th level, if the Psychic Archer is maintaining a psionic focus, all physical objects used to attack with Telekinetic Shot are treated as having the returning property. Creatures make an additional save when being returned. Returning Telekinesis can be suppressed on an individual object for a round as a free action.
Useful until you can generate multiple balls a round. Then even magical ammo is pointless compared to force damage energy balls.

Quote
Telekinetic Burst (Ps):At 6th level, the Psychic Archer learns to unleash a burst of Telekinetic force with a standard action by expending his psionic focus. This desperate move violently forces his opponents away from him. The Psychic Archer makes a special bull rush attempt against all opponents within the area without making an attack roll. The Psychic Archer uses his Cha in place of Str on this attempt.
You already had a bull rush ability, although I do appreciate the multiple targets. Maybe a Telekinetic Maneuver-ish ability would have a place for this class?
And the losing of psionic focus really hurts. A lot.

Quote
Oooh. Options. That actually makes it kinda cool. Instead of exploding your balls you can do BFC.

Quote
Precise Shot (Ex):
"If he already has Precise Shot, he may instead choice any feat that has Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite so long as he meets the requirements."

Quote
Elemental Energy (Ps):
Interesting. Although I'd remove Acid to go along with the psionic Energy X powers.
Goodness gracious, great balls of fire!

Quote
Improved Energy Ball (Ps):
alright. I've seen a lot of utility so far, so a little power is fine.

Quote
Deflective Telekinesis (Ps): Starting at 13th level, the Psychic Archer learns to bend his telekinetic abilities into a reactive defense. He gains a deflection bonus to AC equal to his Cha mod and can, once a round,  spend an attack of opportunity to attempt to entirely deflect a ranged attack. Doing so requires a special Will save (using Charisma in place of Wisdom) with a DC equal to the attack roll of the attack against the Psychic Archer. If successful, the attack is completely negated, the weapon or ammunition bouncing harmlessly away from the Psychic Archer.
Either nix this or make the AC only effective vs. ranged. Part of the opportunity cost of the class is low AC in exchange for some BFC and status effects.

Quote
Improved Telekinesis (Ps): At 14th level, the Psychic Archer can carry objects weighing a total of up to 30 lbs per class level, and can carry a number up to twice his level. Losing psionic focus still causes all carried items to fall to the floor and all energy balls to dissipate.
Watch the psionic focus mechanic.

Quote
Improved Telekinetic Shot (Ps):At 14th level, when using Telekinetic Shot, a Psychic Archers adds his Charisma Bonus to the damage done. Creatures thrown with the ability suffer damage as if they had fallen a distance equal to half the distance they have been thrown.
Another power boost. Now I'm certain: lose the DC for stun based on damage. You'll hit high 30s easy.

Quote
Barrage (Ps):
The attack penalties are too severe. This needs a fix.

Quote
Far Shot (Ex):
Lose this. They can spend the feat if they want the range. Especially since you're increasing the range next level anyway.

Quote
Meta-Energy Ball (Ps):
Capstone! Woot! Better Exploding Balls!
[/Spoiler]
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 02:13:59 AM by skydragonknight »
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

skydragonknight

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Re: [3.5]Psychic Archer
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2008, 02:18:29 AM »
On the Psy focus, clarify that losing Psy focus causes the items to fall/balls to dissipate at the end of your turn (or immediately if not on your turn). This will fix a lot of the contradictions I'm seeing.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

EjoThims

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Re: [3.5]Psychic Archer
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2008, 11:24:10 AM »
Alright, before special abilities it's balanced with Psywar. Now to check out the specials.

Good to know. ^.^

Any reason why you didn't just give Wild Talent as a bonus feat like Soulknife?

Because I missed that. I think I got the text that's there from a PrC? Soulknife wording is better by far, so I'll switch to it.

You're going to need either rules for the disarm check modifier.

Alrighty, added "If attempting to pick up an object held by a creature, they receive this same save, and gain any bonuses they would against normal disarm attempts." Because the opposing attack roll disarm mechanic didn't really seem to lend itself to the flavor.

Any damage increases for object weight? Best to specify one way or the other.

Good point. Edited to: "This deals 1d3 damage to the target or 1/2 the damage the object would deal as an improvised weapon. It also deals 1d4 damage to any creature or non-weapon object (which both take this damage even if the attack misses) used in this manner."

No limit besides the limit on the number of objects picked up? Sorta negates the need for normal ammunition, making it a very gear-independant class.
The actions hurt at lower levels.

It's intended to be gear independent at later levels, and it's intended to still be relying on actual weapons and ammo for most things at early levels, though one who didn't have to be subtle could prepare a lot in advance, the actions are still a limit on uses per combat at low levels.

Expending Psionic Focus causes the energy ball to dissapate though. Conflicting mechanic.

Whoops, good point. Changed to: "Starting at 5th level, a Psychic Archer can, once a round, add a burst of telekinetic power when striking with an energy ball. Doing so, however, causes the Psychic Archer to lose his psionic focus immediately after the attack is resolved."

This is limited to 1/round? Otherwise could be interesting.

Yes, limited.

" a Psychic Archer can, once a round"

I'm not sure I like a save vs. Stun that scales with damage, even if it's M-A. And I really hope this is 1/round.

I want it to scale with damage, but I think you're right that's its probably too fast. Maybe 1/2 damage? Or drop the level out entirely since it scales on damage? Hrmm, yes, I like that. Changed to: "(DC equal to 10 + Cha mod + damage done)"

I highlighted what caused me to laugh out loud.  Even when comboed with other abilities, the double-save mechanic prevents abuse. Go explode your balls: I won't stop you.

KEKEKE. I was mainly concerned with this combined with the Adaptive Barrage and Lingering Energy Ball feats, especially once you get Meta Energy Balls.

Useful until you can generate multiple balls a round. Then even magical ammo is pointless compared to force damage energy balls.

Enemies and wagons are also physical objects. ^.^

You already had a bull rush ability, although I do appreciate the multiple targets. Maybe a Telekinetic Maneuver-ish ability would have a place for this class?
And the losing of psionic focus really hurts. A lot.

I'm not very good with maneuvers, but it'd be an interesting take, especially to get everything off the psionic focus mechanic, but it was designed to hurt until later levels. Early on it's supposed to be an emergency option.

"If he already has Precise Shot, he may instead choice any feat that has Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite so long as he meets the requirements."

Added.

Interesting. Although I'd remove Acid to go along with the psionic Energy X powers.
Goodness gracious, great balls of fire!

Hmm, good point... But I think I'll leave it in for better BFC. This is the intended mainstay of BFC for mid levels.

Either nix this or make the AC only effective vs. ranged. Part of the opportunity cost of the class is low AC in exchange for some BFC and status effects.

The actual negate only applies to ranged attacks, but I think that perhaps limiting it a little more is perhaps wise, since none of the other abilities are actually limited by heavy armor. Added to: "When unarmored and unencumbered"

Specified that objects carried by TK don't count towards encumbrance.

The attack penalties are too severe. This needs a fix.

They hit as ranged touch attacks, and after Aftercrescent pointed it out to me, I agreed that the ability to do 80d6 damage a round every round as ranged touch attacks all day long was a little powerful, especially since that's without anything but base class abilities. A -30 on 20 ranged touch attacks should still hit most BSF types easily with close to the full barrage.

Lose this. They can spend the feat if they want the range. Especially since you're increasing the range next level anyway.

It applies to everything though, not just the energy balls. Including thrown enemies.

Plus it's a dead level otherwise.

skydragonknight

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Re: [3.5]Psychic Archer
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2008, 11:49:26 PM »
You already had a bull rush ability, although I do appreciate the multiple targets. Maybe a Telekinetic Maneuver-ish ability would have a place for this class?
And the losing of psionic focus really hurts. A lot.

I'm not very good with maneuvers, but it'd be an interesting take, especially to get everything off the psionic focus mechanic, but it was designed to hurt until later levels. Early on it's supposed to be an emergency option.

I was actually referring to the Telekinetic Maneuver power, which should be the baseline comparison for psionic bull rushing.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

EjoThims

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Re: [3.5]Psychic Archer
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2008, 09:54:09 PM »
Oh... I missed that...

Hrmm... It's pretty much the same, but with Int or ML instead of Cha as I've done it, though I think I'll stick with saves instead for disarms, since that's wrapped up with picking up a whole creature/person.

Which is, by the way, where the real battlefield control on this class comes along. You move your enemies and your allies around to the most advantageous positions, or even just fling your enemies into the air and into each other for massive damage + falling damage.

EjoThims

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Race Discussions
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2008, 09:58:32 PM »
As I am considering the Races essentially finalized, I have consolidated all the discussions on them here.

Further input is still appreciated, but short of some glaring oversight, major overhauls are unlikely at this point.

Callix

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Re: [3.5] Verold: Bears
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2008, 09:30:01 AM »
This all looks really, really cool. When you do the PbP, I want in.

The Bears are my favourite so far; some sort of grappler/Warshaper is just begging to get played. Reaping Mauler might even work...

Tell me when you get this PbP going, OK?
I know gameology-fu.

EjoThims

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Re: [3.5] Verold: Bears
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2008, 10:32:54 AM »
This all looks really, really cool. When you do the PbP, I want in.

The Bears are my favourite so far; some sort of grappler/Warshaper is just begging to get played. Reaping Mauler might even work...

Tell me when you get this PbP going, OK?

There's going to be a lot more put up, and it most of it will probably need a little rehashing, but everyone will definitely be updated when the PbP starts.

Psychic Robot

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Re: [3.5] Verold: Bears
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2008, 07:14:12 PM »
What are the stats of twinks and queens?

EjoThims

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Re: [3.5] Verold: Bears
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2008, 02:41:19 AM »
What are the stats of twinks and queens?

 ??? ??? ???

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Re: [3.5] Verold: Ravens
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2008, 02:51:24 AM »
I'm going to risk chiming in with an opinion before I've studied the system in depth, because I've been dying for an excuse to congratulate you.  I don't normally like animal-people or shapeshifting heroes, but you've somehow managed, in the space of a very few words, to make them seem cool and interesting.  Maybe I've been playing too much Fire Emblem. 

I don't know how concerned you are with game balance, or what character classs you're primarily intending to support.  I tend to start wiht the assumption that casters are strong, fighters weak, and that cleric, rogue, druid, and wizard is the iconic party, just to warn you of my perspective. 

Anyway, I risk making a fool of myself having read only a couple of these Verold races, but... wow.  Just wow.  I'd keep a VERY close eye on these Ravens, as their power level looks poentially through the roof. 

First, +4 to INT.  This is a big deal, especially with no penalties you care about.  That +2 to save DCs may look innocent at first, but gets progressively more dangerous the more optimized a character is.  If this pushes your mobs from saving on 15s to saving on 17s, that's an enormous boost in effectiveness.  Possibly the saves of typical Veroldan mooks are highger than in D&D, but otherwise this right here seems dangerous. 

Second, they are godly at low level.  Play a Wizard! you should easil have a 20 INT, giving you 7 first-level spells with which to blow away the opposition.  Not much fares well against DC 16 color sprays or greases at that level, and any staying power issues are gone. Alternately, play a rogue! Shell out for an 18 INT (delicious skill points!) and get two sweet area spells per day, all of which set up your sneak attacks.  This get less attractive at higher levels, but is still decent.

Third, flight.  I'm not one who thinks low-level flight is absolutely broken, but coming for free at level one it's a very nice perk, especially or the rogues. 

Who knows, maybe other tribes have simlarly ridiculous features, (Cranes don't) but these go to some of the game's best classes, so be careful. 

PS-- the animal form's stat mods just bug me.  A temporary INT bonus doesn't give skill points, and presumeably one can't cast spells.  What's the point?  The only actual use appears to be turning into a bird to get a bonus on Knowledge checks, which seems... bizzarre.