Little B(r)other and Losing Players

[yellerSumner]

I DMed for the first time in a long while a couple of weeks ago.  Already identified a couple of things I need to work on and have ideas on how to fix them.  (I freaked when they decided to run from the dragon and everyone won initiative. Solution: Remember monsters can break down doors just like PCs can.)


Me - DM
Roomie - My former roommate and our house provider.  She's the one that all of us are friends with and met through. (Pretty new to D&D.)
Guy Friend - A friend of Roomie who is a guy.  (Completely new to D&D, IIRC.)
Sister - Older sister of the Little Brother.  (Sis and LilBro play with a group at home.)
Little Brother - Around 18, the youngest of the group.  The "problem player" so-to-speak.

I'm 2 hours away and Sis and LilBro are an hour away, so this isn't a group that gets together every other week.

We both visited Roomie the same weekend near the beginning of the year and found that playing D&D more entertaining than staring at the TV for hours on end while playing video games. 

Last time, LilBro DMed since every other time I'd tried running 3.5 it had ended horribly and I just refused to do it.  They both had character sheets from their other group and I threw together a couple of characters for myself and Roomie (kinda shoddy because my opt-fu wasn't that high).  Instead of running us through the encounters as presented in the Basic Game, LilBro grabbed groups of minis and just added them to encounters sporadically.  (He was running a character along side ours so we could have a party of 4, but there didn't seem to be any "DMPC" problems.)


4e came out, I read over it, and thought it'd be good for the killing-everything style of play we had the last time.  Prepped player handouts and such since no one was planning to *buy* the book before we got together next.  We played through the Kobold Hall adventure in the DMG.

The first night we put together characters. 
I'd already guided Roomie through most of character creation over IM - Half-Elf Cleric (Raven Queen). 
Guy Friend was interested in learning to play and joined us this time - Human Paladin (Melora). 
LilBro made a Dragonborn Fighter.  He overheard me talking about gods to Guy Friend and decided he wanted one and picked out Bahamut.
Sister read through and pretty much made her character on her own - Razorclaw Shifter Ranger. 
I tossed in an Elf Wizard so they'd have a party of 5 and a controller since I hadn't adjusted anything and didn't want them to all die from it.

I asked the players how they met and they ended up meeting at a waterslide convention and were going to kill the kobolds to sell their hides to raise money to build a waterslide.


Things I know I need to change:

1 - Laptops.  I borrowed Roomie's laptop so I could have the things I hadn't printed off available.  Sister, however, at a couple of points seemed more involved with facebook or whatever than in the game. 

2 - I like being right.  This had the unfortunate effect of drawing me into rules arguements with LilBro.  I'd try to explain something in 4e and he'd either mention how his group did something or the way it supposedly worked in 3.5. 
I think I need to learn to smile and say "That's nice - ANYWAY In 4e/our game..." and move on instead of trying to correct him on things or explain why 4e made a change.  I don't think he was intentionally trying to bait me, but I took it most of the time.


I recall LilBro saying "fair" at least a couple of times.  I'm pretty certain one of the times was in reference was to one of the times when the monster got to do something the player's couldn't.


The main problem came at the end of the adventure after they defeated the dragon. 

Dragon falls to ground dead.
Sister makes sure it's dead by having her ranger stab it in the heart with a spear they'd grabbed off dead kobolds.
I confirm that it's dead.
LilBro declares his fighter's going to chop off the dragon's head and put it on a pike.

Sister points out they're a group and the group should get to decide as a whole. 
LilBro emphasizes how VERY IMPORTANT this is to his dragonborn because Bahamut is his god and the dragon was a worshiper of Tiamat, etc, etc.
Sister points back to the group goal of getting money and how they should take it back and sell it.

The argument gets louder and louder. 
Culminates when they reach the fed-up point at each other.  He tells his sister to shut-up, and because I'm so frustrated at him I tell "You can shut up too!" since I'm seeing him trying to impose his will on others using his god as an excuse.
I then switch the subject by pointing out they haven't looked for any treasure in the cave and that we could deal with the dragon corpse later.  I handed out treasure and then we stopped.

Where were the others all this time?
Roomie might've posed initial objection, but didn't participate in the lasting argument because she'd been feeling sick. 
Guy Friend missed this argument because he had to leave since he had work the next day.  He already finds LilBro annoying/immature/irritating/etc and doesn't want to play with him again.


While I'd guess the ideal solution would be to talk to him and he becomes enlightened and plays cooperatively with the rest of the group.
As I'm 3 hours away from him, that's not the easiest solution to try and isn't fail-proof.


I'm sure I'm missing options, but the ones I see are as follows:
a. Don't invite LilBro back. (Tell him that Sister is coming for a girly weekend and no mention that we'll be playing D&D.)
b. Play with LilBro and lose Guy Friend as a player.  A discussion about D&D being a "Team game" would be held before playing again.
b1. I don't know the likelihood of Guy Friend returning even if LilBro "shaped up" as he found him annoying prior to the game.
b2. If LilBro did not learn to behave after the discussion, continue on with a plan that does not involve him playing.
c. Skip Sister and LilBro entirely and just play with Roomie and Guy Friend.
d. Combine option "b" with either "a" or "c" so two games would be played.


I have two additional issues which I think may have some weight in the decision making process.

1.  As (I think) I said earlier, I drive two hours and Sis/Bro drive one.  That's some time investment and some gas investment, so we like to get together for a couple of days at least.  Getting several days that are open for us all can be difficult.

2.  Past two times we've gotten together, Roomie's house mates have all been gone.  Even without crazy arguments, we get kind of loud and that probably wouldn't be very well appreciated.  I believe Roomie said something about Guy Friend offering to have us play at his place, but that leads to an auto-exclusion of LilBro.

Having to adjust encounters for a smaller group may or may not be seen as a third issue weighing in on the subject.



Okay, I've rambled enough.  Go at me for being a complete idiot.  Tell me the magical solution I don't see because I'm blind. 
Bitching about a similar experience is only acceptable if you explain the solution you used, how it did or didn't work out for you, how you might do it differently if you did it over again, and if you recommend that course of action or not.

[AndyJames]

Do you have the time or the inclination to tutor Lil Bro in the niceties of group dynamics? I have to admit right now that I personally don't, and Lil Bro would never be coming back to my games. I have a very low tolerance for people that try to impose their will on others via any excuse.

I'd vote for gaming at Guy Friend's place and inviting Sis but not Lil Bro. I won't bother to hide that you guys will be playing DnD, though. Why would you want to lie? If he asks, just tell him the truth: that you are playing at Guy Friend's place and Guy Friend doesn't want Lil Bro there.

That serves two purposes:
1) the disruptive influence is out of your game
2) it may cause Lil Bro to re-examine his behaviour (unlikely, but one can hope)

[Ubernoob]

Since he's the youngest it's pretty fair to crack down on him and expect him to bend over or go away (culturally at least, morally I dunno).  Go for Guy's place and tell little bro he's not invited by Guy, because of X, Y, and Z.  Give him Guy's contact info and tell him if he resolves things with Guy (and you confirm) he can play with you then.  Make him sit out at least one weekend if not two.  Just something to let it sink in.

[yellerSumner]

Do you have the time or the inclination to tutor Lil Bro in the niceties of group dynamics?

No, not really. 
If I identified him more as my friend than my friend's friend I might, but I don't.

I won't bother to hide that you guys will be playing DnD, though. Why would you want to lie?

To not strain other person's relationships.
While not a cool move, I'd probably pull the "You're picking so-and-so over me? You're a bad friend!" crap if it happened to me. 

I'm an only child, so I don't know how much fighting it would cause between him and his sister.  I'm also not sure how fast fights blow over and if she'd rather side with her brother because he's her brother.
Roomie's been the one organizing when we get together since she's got everyone's numbers and we've been doing it at her house (and we'd still be staying at her house even if we gamed at Guy's place).

I'm not sure if I'm just that chicken of telling someone off, or if I'm not comfortable doing it because I'm not hosting the game at my place and are therefore not sure where my "rights" as a GM sit.

Since he's the youngest it's pretty fair to crack down on him and expect him to bend over or go away (culturally at least, morally I dunno).

  I'd feel more comfortable bullying a young teen than someone who's legally an adult.  I'm not sure how well I could communicate "You're acting like a two year old" in a non-offensive way.

Give him Guy's contact info and tell him if he resolves things with Guy (and you confirm) he can play with you then.

I was talking to Roomie today and she mentioned that Guy wasn't too accepting of some people, so I'm not sure Guy would be willing to put forth the effort to resolve things.


I'm gunna ask Roomie to read the topic and see if she'd like to add anything (an idea I missed, insight into the others' minds that I don't have, etc) when I see her online.

[AndyJames]

On the matter of who gets invited, you don't have the right. The guy who "owns" the place does. Your rights as GM starts and ends at the game, and only the game. Remember, you are a referee, not a lord.

How can you strain someone else's relationship? Guy already dislikes him intensely. It can't get any worse.

If he pulls a "you are a bad friend" crap, my reply would be: "grow up, and until you do, so are you." (a bad friend, that is)

I don't think anyone buy the Sister can answer your question of fighting between them.

You want to communicate "acting like a two year old"? Two words: "Grow up". Seriously. That would be me right there. He pulls that crap at my table, he gets those two words immediately in front of everyone.

At the moment, it seems that Lil Bro should be the one putting the effort into smoothing things over, not Guy. I'm sorry, but it is not fair on Guy to have to try and smooth things over when it is Lil Bro who is the male genitalia.

[CoarsestGrate]

On the matter of who gets invited, you don't have the right. The guy who "owns" the place does. Your rights as GM starts and ends at the game, and only the game. Remember, you are a referee, not a lord.

This.  Talk with Roomie first, then the Sister, to make sure that both are on board with you kicking either LilBro or Guy Friend out if need be (both have very good reasons to be kicked out).  Then, make it clear to LilBro that he's gone if he doesn't stop being a dick.  Assuming he agrees, tell Guy Friend that he's gone if he refuses to make amends with LilBro.  If LilBro tells you to fuck off, kick him without hesitation and you're done.  Likewise, if Guy Friend doesn't even want to attempt to play with LilBro again, kick him without hesitation.  Of course, this will go up in smoke if LilBro decides to resume his dickery once Guy Friend is gone.  If you think LilBro will do that, then kick him immediately and don't even bother trying to get him to stop.  In fact, just kicking LilBro right away is probably the safest bet in the long run.

Whatever you decide to do, both players will need to be watched closely.  Guy Friend in particular seems to me like he has the potential to level up from simply "unreasonable" to "unreasonable dick".  If that happens, he'll probably be an even greater annoyance that LilBro.

Good luck.

[yellerSumner]

On the matter of who gets invited, you don't have the right. The guy who "owns" the place does. Your rights as GM starts and ends at the game, and only the game. Remember, you are a referee, not a lord.

Just because someone offers to host the game at their place doesn't require me to accept that invitation though.

How can you strain someone else's relationship? Guy already dislikes him intensely. It can't get any worse.

I don't mean between Guy and LilBro.  I mean between Roomie and LilBro and Sister.


Asked her like I said.

[Roomie]: interesting topic
[Roomie]: I think...[lilBro] tends to hold grudges
[Roomie]: I mean, we don't have to play at [Guy's] house
[Roomie]: and [Sister] is VERY protective of her brother
[Roomie]: she WILL take his side
[Roomie]: if it comes down to that
[Roomie]: as much as I love them....I'd almost rather do option C....it would be a little calmer....

And then got ninja'd (I take too long when posting), so showed her your post too, CG.

[Roomie]: um...[Guy Friend] probably will be less of a dick in the long run than [lilBro] because he hasn't learned how to grow up
[Roomie]: he's never had responsibility so.....
[Roomie]: [Guy Friend] just doesn't get along with some people and no matter what he just can't get past that initial reaction to them
[...]
[yeller]: BTW, love how what you said earlier is partialy ambigous.
[Roomie]: how so?
[yeller]: I think it might actually sound like you're saying [Guy Friend] is the one who hasn't grown up.
[Roomie]: yeah....both of them really
[yeller]: So, neither have grown up...
[yeller]: Which does the "never had responsiblity" apply to?
[Roomie]: [lilBro]
[yeller]: Thought so.
[yeller]: So, [Guy Friend] is a mild dick in general, but [lilBro] was more of a dick in-game?
[Roomie]: yeah

For the record, I don't recall seeing Guy Friend interrupt the game with his dislike of LilBro.

[AndyJames]

Initial reactions colours everything we do. That is why the idea of "first impression" is so important in things like getting a job.

To me Guy isn't at fault. He reacted as any person would. He might let it affect him more than others, but his is an honest reaction. I wouldn't want to play with a guy that smells like a distillery and the local garbage dump at the same time, and I would also hold that against him in the long run unless he proves himself to me (that would take a lot).

I don't see Lil Bro ever trying to redeem himself in the eyes of Guy. I do see him holding it against Guy and totally being a donkey to him in-game.


And no, you do not ahve to hold the game at his place. However, wherever you choose to hold the game, you follow the rules of that person. And if that person says no to Lil Bro, the kid is straight out of luck.


It does sound like Sister needs a bit of growing up to do as well, if she is that protective of Lil Bro. But that is by-the-by.

[CoarsestGrate]

Hmm.  I had a feeling that Sister would object to kicking her brother out.  Hell, I'd object if I was in her situation.

Anyway, it seems like option C is the way to go.  I don't like it personally, and I agree with Andy that first impressions are important, but I do have problems with people that refuse to even consider people after the first bad meeting.  First impressions shouldn't be last impressions, as some say.  But yeah, as long as Guy Friend doesn't let his dislike of other players affect the game, I see no reason why he shouldn't be allowed to stay in the group.

So, it seems like this little event might be coming to a close soon... it'll be interesting to see what the final decision is.

[Melblen_Cairn]

I had a simliar problem. I had started running a weekly game for a group of my friends and they included a friend of theirs that I hadn't played with before. He was a major disruptive influence on the game. Trying to use house rules from their other game sessions, trying to bring in his over powered character from a different game, and various other issues.

After the session I spoke to my friends and advised them that I wasn't comfortable running a game with him playing and if they wanted me to continue to run it for just them it would be fine. They understood and we rescheduled the day we ran it on and moved forward without him. If this "lilBro" guy is a problem for running your game smoothly and his sister doesnt want to game without him, you might just simply cut both of them out of it. run it for the other two untill you find an additional player or two.

[Sinfire Titan]

Your problem is only half of mine. Your brother isn't trying to kill you...


The best way to deal with this is to ask the local game store if you can play there without your brother getting involved. Tell him what the group's problem with him is, then shift locations. If there is no game store, use the library (they should let you, if you ask the right employee).

Its devious, but so long as he doesn't know where the game is he can't do a damn thing about it but bitch. And he'll know why you moved the game too.

[Josh]

You need to stop the argument before it starts next time. 

They were not bickering because of the game, they were most likely tired and crabby.  Discuss the bickering, not the in game issue with them privately before you play again.  Point out that they are interfering with other peoples fun.

Don't make a big deal of it and try to be understanding.