Author Topic: Commando Shenanigans  (Read 4003 times)

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Rymosrac

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Commando Shenanigans
« on: May 17, 2008, 04:53:29 PM »
Okay - here we go. I was going for a sort of commando theme with this build. Infiltration, ambush, demolition, being able to set up surprise rounds, win initiative with ease, and kick a pile of trash before the opposition gets a chance to act. And I really wanted to do it with a crossbow. I'm not really fond of dread commando's abilities - but the initiative boost helps, and I've been wanting to fit it into a build for a while. I'll be using the adaptation for get rid of Armored Ease in exchange for concealment in natural terrain - but I might be able to get natural terrain switched to something a hair more useful / common.

What I've got so far fits that pretty well, I think - but loses a lot of firepower once the enemy stops being flat-footed. Starting level is 10 (which is all I really have planned out), free +1 LA, Starting stats are 18, 16, 14 ,12 ,10 , 8. Pretty high-powered IMO, but that's what the DM is giving us. Any WotC source is permissible, including Dragon. LA buyoff and Weapon Group Proficiency from UA are both in use, flaws allowed and capped at 5 per character. Flaws can be assigned after 1st level, so flaw feats aren't restricted to things you qualify for at level 1. Oh - and fighters can pick just about anything that isn't blatantly "un-fighter-y" for bonus feats, so no metamagic or what have ye.  :P


And here's the build:
Khaedra Shadowscale
Lesser Tiefling (WoTC Web, Savage Progressions), Chameleon Template (FR: Underdark)
Rogue 2 / Fighter 4 (DotU variant) / Dread Commando 4


Ability Scores (10th Level)
STR 12 (12, No Adjustment)
DEX 24 (18, +2 Levels +2 Racial + 2 Enhancement)
CON 16 (14, +2 Enhancement)
INT 16 (16, No Adjustment)
WIS 10 (10, No Adjustment)
CHA 6 (8, -2 Racial)


Class Levels & Feats
Rogue 1 Blooded (1st), Point-Blank Shot (flaw), Dodge (flaw), Mobility (flaw)
Rogue 2 Dead Eye (flaw), Hand-Crossbow Focus (flaw)
Fighter 1 (DotU Variant) Precise Shot (Bonus), Rapid Shot (3rd)
Fighter 2 - Crossbow Sniper
Fighter 3 -
Fighter 4 - Improved Initiative (6th), Weapon Specialization (Hand Crossbow) (Bonus)
Dread Commando 1 -
Dread Commando 2 -
Dread Commando 3 - Craven (9th)
Dread Commando 4 -


Weapon Proficiency:
Rogue gets two weapon groups, so I'm taking Crossbows and Exotic Weapons. don't know if I get additional groups for multiclassing into fighter - but the essentials are already covered anyways.


Equipment (10th Level, 49k starting gold):
+1 Aptitude (ToB), Pitspawned (DMGII), Great-Crossbow (RoS)
Masterwork Hand-Crossbow
Crapload of Bolts
Gloves of Dex +2
Haversack
Ring of Anticipation (DotU)
Ring of the Darkhidden (MiC)
Cloak of Resistance +1
Bracers of Murder (DotU)
+5 Boots of Elvenkind
+1 Shadow Nightscale Armor (FR:Und) w/ camouflage & muffling (Hide & Move Silenly MW tools).
Least Weapon Augment Crystal of Return (MiC)
Climber's Kit (MW Tool)
+1 Death Ward (MiC) Buckler
Lesser Sheild Augment Crystal of Arrow Protection
MW Dagger
MW Thieves Tools
Amulet of Health +2


Gimmick: Being able to reload a Great-Crossbow as a free action via Aptiude cheese - Full attacking with a 2d8 base damage and 18-20 threat range on a crossbow. Need to get Splitting on this thing ASAP.


Initiative:
Total: +19, roll twice and take best. Should foil everything but F$*#ing Celerity.
+7 DEX
+4 Dread Commando
+2 Fighter Variant
+4 Improved Init
+2 Blooded


Full Attack Routine (10th level) - Assuming Targets are within 30', not crit/SA-immune, and Flat-Footed:
Total:+19 / +19 / +14
+9 BAB
+7 DEX
+1 Weapon
+1 Weapon Focus
+2 Bracers of Murder
+1 Point-Blank Shot
-2 Rapid Shot


Damage Per shot (10th level)- Assuming Targets are within 30', not crit/SA-immune, and Flat-Footed:
Average 54
+2d8 Weapon
+7 (DEX via Dead Eye)
+7 (DEX via Fighter Variant)
+3 (1/2 DEX via Crossbow Sniper)
+3d6 (Sneak Attack / Sudden Strike)
+10 (Craven)
+1 PBS
+2 WS
+2 Bracers of Murder
+1 Weapon


Important Skills:
Hide: +39
Move Silently: +31
Climb: +24, Has racial climb speed.


Sources Used:
Core, Obviously
WotC Website - Lesser Tiefling
Forgotten Realms: Underdark - Chameleon Template, Nightscale armor, Camouflage + Muffling.
Players Guide to Faerun - Blooded
Heroes of Battle - Dread Commando
Drow of the Underdark - Fighter Variant, Bracers of Murder, Ring of Anicipation, Hand-Crossbow Focus
Complete Adventure - Crossbow Sniper
Dragon Compendium - Dead Eye
Magic Item Compendium - Assorted Stuffs


There are a couple real weak points in this build. Optimal damage output has some hefty qualifications that have to be met - but liberal application of sneaking and planning should help make that happen as often as possible. Will save is in serious need of help - Right now it's a disaster waiting to happen. Darkstalker needs to be picked up ASAP - Weapon Specailization and it's obvious follow-up (Ranged Weapon Mastery) are likely to see themselves crowded out pretty fast. Suggestions on what to do with the remaining 10 levels are most welcome - I'd like to finish off Dread Commando and probably sneak in a level of Nightsong Enforcer, but I'm not dead-set on either. The chameleon template - which is mostly there for flavor & massive hide / climb benefits - gives the reptilian subtype, which doesn't feel exploitable. The tongue with a 10' reach it gives has to be good for something besides delivering touch spells (which I don't have), delivering any contact poisons I manage to get immunity to, and. . . other stuff. :smirk

Anyhow, this is my first time posting a build for review.

Be gentle.  :)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 05:19:39 PM by Rymosrac »
Shh. My common sense is tingling. . .

Ieniemienie

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Re: Commando Shenanigans
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2008, 04:54:49 PM »
You are only allowed to take 2 feats and only at lvl 1
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Rymosrac

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Re: Commando Shenanigans
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2008, 04:57:21 PM »
You mean flaws? I already said that the DM is houseruling up to 5 flaws per character, and they're not restricted to level 1.

Probably unwise of him - and certainly more than I allow in my games - but I'm not complaining. This guy in infamous for tough encounters.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 05:17:55 PM by Rymosrac »
Shh. My common sense is tingling. . .

Infinitive

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Re: Commando Shenanigans
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2008, 10:57:17 PM »
I'm wondering what you're referring to as "proficiency groups"- I think it might be a houserule for your playgroup.  Regardless, when you multiclass, you should get all proficiencies for the class you're adding (in this case, you'd get martial and simple from Swashbuckler guaranteed, so exotic might be from Rogue as you mentioned- check with your DM on this).  Regardless, I think you need a feat for your Great Crossbow.  Also, you lack Weapon Focus, which is a prereq for Crossbow Sniper.

As an alternative that's melee-capable, here's something that's very similar, only it doesn't focus so exclusively on crossbow use.  This one works particularly well if you're starting at 10th level, because your enemy will likely be flat-footed at all times.  Tell me what you think of this variant:

Swashbuckler 3/ Rogue 3/ Avenging Executioner 4 (with Dread Commando to follow either at your next level or at level 12, if you want Bloody Murder.)

Stub:
Ability Scores (presented as race- and equipment-neutral, as CHA is important to this build, and that may impact your race choice, unless there's an important backstory):
Str: 10
Dex: 20 (18 + levels)
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 8
Cha: 12

Feats:
Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler)
1:Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative (flaw), Craven(flaw)
3: Deadly Defense
6: Daring Outlaw, Dead-Eye (flaw), WF: Great Xbow (flaw), Crossbow Sniper (flaw)
9: Intimidating Strike

B.A.B.: +8
Sneak Attack: +3d6
Sudden Strike: +2d6
Deadly Defense: +1d6

To hit (Melee): 13(base):   8 (BAB)+ 5 (Dex)+ (Weapon & Gear)
Damage (Melee):38(base, average):  1d6 (Rapier) + 6d6 (SA, SS, DD) + 3 (Int from Swash) + 10 (Craven, assuming your math is right) + (relevant purchased gear, such as Bracers of Murder)
To hit (Ranged): 14(base):  8 (BAB)+ 5 (Dex)+ 1 (WF)+ (Weapon & Gear)
Damage (Ranges):40(base):  2d8 (Xbow) + 5d6 (SA, SS) + 3 (Int from Swash) + 10 (Craven) + (relevant purchased gear, such as Bracers of Murder)

Just a note on gear- the Bracers of Murder add to damage, not attack.  As much as I love them, they're not that good.  OTOH, they add to each die of Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike, which will average you about 10 damage per swing here.

The good: Avenging Executioner allows you to force the Shaken condition upon your foes, which subsequently renders them flat-footed to your attacks; combine this with Intimidating Strike and, in addition to turning your precision damage on, can elevate your enemies to Frightened fear level, where they run away from you and pull an AoO- just make sure to open combat with an Intimidating Strike as often as possible, which puts your target on two separate saves to beat Shaken (since Bloody Blade, from Avenging Executioner, gets rolled subsequently to Intimidating Strike.  Even better, multiple failed saves against Bloody Blade can turn all opponents within 30' into a terrified mass of humanity- this is a good reason to invest some in Cha bumps, to bring that save up a little higher.
The bad: Base attack and damage is a little lower (I think, since I'm not counting gear or race), and this build really likes melee.  Still, you can still do whopping amounts of damage at range with that crossbow if all you're looking to do is pick someone off.

Hope this helps!
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JanusJones

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Re: Commando Shenanigans
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2008, 02:51:34 AM »
Ummm . . . the DotU sub levels are only for Drow - so be Lesser Drow.  Dark Creature is better for hiding than the Chameleon Template (unless you're going for a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis to stack on more mods to Hide/Move Silently).  The Dread Commando is kind of a "meh" PrC, to be honest.  Teflammer Shadowlord or Nightsong Infiltrator are better choices (or heck, even Swordsage or summat!).  I'd also go with Shadowblade before doing the Crossbow thing, since that'll net you Dex x 2 + Str mod to damage, which will trump the x-bow in a heartbeat.

Rymosrac

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Re: Commando Shenanigans
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2008, 05:15:26 AM »
JanusJones:
Are you sure? I know it's titled "drow fighter" but there's no actual listing of a drow requirement AFAIK. And it's alternate class features, not sub levels. Anyhow, the DM okayed it - he doesn't like racial class requirements for classes that aren't exclusive to that race for solid, concrete reasons. Don't think I'll be changing to lesser drow.

I've used the Dark template on a couple of my previous stealthy characters, and I love it to death. Got to be one of the best things in the whole book. But having used it twice before, I was thinking I'd go for something different this time. Still up in the air on this one - it's certainly something to think about.

And yeah, dread commando IS meh - it says so right on the label. But half the point of this build is an exercise in making use of it. Teflammar shadowlord is great, and both nightsong classes are solid, and I'm definitly looking at them for flushing out the later levels - but I don't think I want to get rid of dread commando. I love swordsage, but really don't feel like working much ToB into this character. Doesn't fit the imagery I've got in my head, but that probably just means I haven't looked hard enough.

And I really want to stick with the crossbow - it's pretty integral to the flavor for this one.

tl;dr: I'm sacrificing better options for flavor and experimentation.  :scared

Infinitive:
Proficiency groups are in Unearthed Arcana and the SRD, and they replace the standard weapon proficiency system. That's why I don't have a feat burned on the great-crossbow, and by extension, the reason I'm bothering with the thing. The lack of weapon focus as a pre-req for Crossbow Sniper is covered by Hand Crossbow Focus - which explicitly counts as weapon focus for meeting prerequisites.
SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm

The avenging executioner is definitely great for the melee sneak-attacker. If I were building a melee glass cannon I'd be on it in a heartbeat - but I'm not. I'll save that one for another time.

On the bracers of murder - I just went and checked. They do in fact add to both attack and damage against flat-footed foes. And they don't directly add to SA/SS damage, but they do let you reroll ones on SA/SS dice. Sounds like the ones you're referencing are from somewhere other than DotU. Mabey they got nerfed in MiC? *checks* Nope, doesn't look like it.



Thanks for the input from both of you, but I'm really looking more for ways to cover the few remaining weak points and possibly further the strengths a bit without really changing the direction the build is going. A lot of this build is obviously sub-par, but I can live with that. Too much stronger and I'll start to outstrip the rest of the party by more than I'm comfortable with. They are not yet strong in The Way, but they are learning.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2008, 05:41:53 AM by Rymosrac »
Shh. My common sense is tingling. . .

AfterCrescent

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Re: Commando Shenanigans
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2008, 05:19:54 AM »
Sub levels require a race. Like Halfling Rogue.
Alternate Class Features do not. Like the Hit-and-Run Tactics in DotU
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