I Need Help Explaining the Value of Battlefield Control

[RobbyPants]

Well, some people just won't listen to reason... I guess I'll just have to keep playing the character I want to, without worrying about what he thinks, and hope that he eventually clues in. I was hoping he'd listen to reason, but then again, this is the guy who complained about how "overpowered" my lesser tiefling swashbuckler/fighter/dervish/tempest was, while he was playing a cleric he'd intentionally designed as a walking band-aid box. Whatever.

Thanks for the help, everyone.

So, I'm curious.  Has this gone any further?  Have you gotten through to him since your last post?

[Guile]

If you still want to show him just how bad actually doing damage is, you do have access to the whelm series of spells.

I can hardly wait until the first time I get to one-shot a major opponent with overwhelm.

So, I'm curious.  Has this gone any further?  Have you gotten through to him since your last post?

Ummm... maybe? The bard's player didn't show up this week, so I took it over and with one grease spell made the character more useful than it had been in the past eight weeks. Many attacks of opportunity against Dex-mod-denied opponents were had. He didn't mind it when my beguiler hit the party with a haste while fighting the bulette, either.

On the other hand, I think part of the problem may actually have nothing to do with me. In the game that I'm DMing, one of the players is trying to do battlefield control and, quite frankly, is sucking at it. I'd help him with it if he asked, but the kid's too full of himself to ask. I hope he has some twinkish plan that I can't see yet, otherwise this is going to be a long campaign for all of us.

I do think that my friend's starting to feel that battlefield control is at least equal to blasting (although we all know it's better), if you know what you're doing. I guess the thing with blasting is that even if you don't know what you're doing, so long as you're doing damage to the opponents people think you're doing a good job.

[Marco]

1. Evards black tentcles
2. Fireball (10 hit dies)
which would you rather me cast?

I would choose Evard's black tentacles of uncomfortably forced intrusion  but that's because I'm in a different sort of game. 

[RobbyPants]

On the other hand, I think part of the problem may actually have nothing to do with me. In the game that I'm DMing, one of the players is trying to do battlefield control and, quite frankly, is sucking at it. I'd help him with it if he asked, but the kid's too full of himself to ask. I hope he has some twinkish plan that I can't see yet, otherwise this is going to be a long campaign for all of us.

So I'm curious what he's doing that makes him suck so bad.  Does he just have a bad mix of spells or is it tactics too? 

He's not trying to Grease ghosts, is he?

[Amechra]

Rise once more, o Thread, and shower us with your wisdom!
<Casts Create Greater Undead, and then Rebukes with a +115 modifier>

I hope he wasn't greasing Ghosts, they already go through easily enough. 

Still, I like to think of direct damage as gambling with a bunch of dice, but whenever you roll them, you lose one of the dice (a spell slot), but your enemy doesn't. On the other hand, battlefield control is like playing chess. Sure, you just lost a pawn (again with the spell slot), but your enemy loses his next turn.. Now, it's your choice; which sounds like a game that's easier to win?

BC means that the wimpy little fighter gets to feel good about himself. Sometimes, it helps to just be nice(, and coincidentally godlike).

There, that a good enough explanation?
(Sorry for going back to the beginning of the topic, but I thought the metaphor couldn't wait.)

[Havok4]

That was an impressive bit of necromancy there. I think I read this thread back in 2008 when I was still lurking.
And maybe we should start a handbook detailing common arguments to use against hardheaded players and DMs.

[Amechra]

Sounds like a great idea! Of course, I was born with a CHA modifier of -5, so I vote that you, Havok4, take up the challenge.

Stupid lack of Eagle's Splendor in real life...

[Sinfire Titan]

Sounds like a great idea! Of course, I was born with a CHA modifier of -5, so I vote that you, Havok4, take up the challenge.

Stupid lack of Eagle's Splendor in real life...

There is one. Just give him $5.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Sounds like a great idea! Of course, I was born with a CHA modifier of -5, so I vote that you, Havok4, take up the challenge.

Stupid lack of Eagle's Splendor in real life...

There is one. Just give him $5.

Make sure it's five $1s.  Otherwise you don't have any eagles.

[skydragonknight]

"I help other people do their job better."

[Amechra]

I tried that!



















All that happened was that I got the money stolen 
Plus, there is no way to give people money over the internet.

Another reason for not doing it is that I'm busy at the moment.

I might be able to do something about a handbook, but it would be slow.
(I've been looking to see if there's a way to get the Nymph's Kiss feat in RL, so...)

[skydragonknight]

"I lower their ability to brutally murder us."

[Empirate]

I agree with the posters saying the effectiveness of BC is, first and foremost, really hard to measure. Especially the kind of BC that allows a save. Glitterdust and Stinking Cloud keep popping up, but they're actually worse than a Fireball if the other guys make their saves. A "smart f'ing idiot" will shove that in your face immediately. If you really want to convince somebody, make sure of the kind of examples you use.

I present to you: a way to judge what's an effective spell and what's not (rough draft):

Good, inarguable BC: Obscuring Mist, Solid Fog, Wall of Force, Dimensional Shuffle.
(These will work no matter what, making them superior to everything else you could do generally)

Shaky, circumstantial or save-dependent BC: Grease, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, Major Image.
(Most of these are superior to Fireball, but only because they have multiple effects, or their effect when they do work is just freakin' awesome. Depending on circumstance and success, it may be better to use these over the aforementioned)

Mediocre all the way, but stackable with what the rest of your party is doing all the time: direct damage spells.
(A fallback option no caster should be without. Sometimes it's you who must do the damage, when the other guys are occupied/dead/not there. Sometimes it's just better to take out that dragon with only 5 HP left now. Direct damage will work. It's just not the most economical way to play to your strengths as a caster)

Special mention: Save-or-die, or save-or-suck.
(It's really hard to judge these on the basis of effectiveness alone. You either do it all, or you do nothing. Normally, I'd leave these alone, if only because even if you succeed, you won't feel good about it, it's just anticlimax)


If your friend the f'ing idiot played blaster mages all the way since 1st edition, he'll always fall back on direct damage. Even if you tell him just how many HP most creatures in 3.5 have. If he's used to winning fights because you reduced the monsters to 0 HP, he'll be having a hard time learning differently. Coz you know, it takes imagination to do that. Good luck anyway...


EDIT: Wow, this had a second page I hadn't read before posting. Sorry if this was a little late in coming, then...

[PhaedrusXY]

Entangle and Web also both work regardless if the enemy makes their save. The enemy is still screwed, just not quite as hard. They are both excellent low level BFC spells.

[Amechra]

I'm wondering, do spells that let you get out of combat trump battlefield control? And by that I mean spells like Alarm (You know when someone's there.), Expeditious Retreat (RUN AWAY!), any of the longer range Teleport spells, or Glibness/Charm Person/Dominate Person/Attraction (You're their new bestest best friend)

[veekie]

Situational, as depending on the control deployed, you may not be able to evade and the save or lose spells obviously require that you beat their save/wards.

[RobbyPants]

That, and it depends on your objective.  Do you need to defeat your opponents or not?  If not, then running away likely trumps fighting them.  However, if you need to defeat them to get to the next objective, then running won't help you unless resting and coming back better prepared is an option.

Also, the more you try the run-rest-rememorize trick, the more the DM is likely to throw time constraints on the adventures, so don't abuse this trick.