Author Topic: Yet another attempt at a WotST-gish  (Read 1661 times)

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GawainBS

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Yet another attempt at a WotST-gish
« on: July 20, 2008, 05:38:40 PM »
I was paging through my 4E PHB to try to get a playable Gish. This is what I came up with. It isn't worked out in detail yet. I was hoping you guys could help me point out the flaws of the build, or tell me it wouldn't be playable at all/would be playable.

Note: I'm aware of the Swordmage and I'll probably play it, but this is an attempt at a "Core-only" WotST gish.

Human Staff Wizard:

16 (18 from being Human) Int, 14 Cha, 13 Dex, 12 Str, 12 Con, 8 Wis.

The plan is to pick up the Paladin multiclass feat, the three Multiclass feats, get daily/encounter/at-will Cha-based Paladin weapon-powers, so that even without The One Sword, there would be usage for the Longsword.

As for other feats, I was looking at Longsword prof, WF: Longsword, Action Surge, Spell Focus, Arcane Reach, eventually Hide Armour, Light Shield, Shield Spec.

Apart from that, I'd mainly select Control-type Wizard powers. So far, I have only found one that uses Wisdom as a secondary attribute, so I feel pretty secure in dumping Wis. (I may have overlooked some powers, though.)

Do you think this is do-able? Would Eladrin be a better choice?
Thanks in advance!

Alpha

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Re: Yet another attempt at a WotST-gish
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2008, 08:46:13 PM »
1.  I do think Eladrin would be better.  Because of Longsword proficiency, the only real advantage the human has is that extra at-will(though I will grant that with Illusory Ambush around this becomes very good for a Wizard) and better defense bonuses, versus the Eladrin's extra +2 Dex(great for Arcane Reach and +1 init) and Fey Step(which I suspect will be amazingly useful for a gish).
2.  As long as you keep that couplet at the bottom stocked via Cha, I think it's very reasonable to dump Wis(though that hurts some of your class skills).  I've also found only one spell that actually relies on Wis(though I think Thunderwave is a great spell for a gish).
3.  I'm not sure how useful Paladin multiclassing will be for you.  As a wizard-gish, you really don't have the HP to do any sort of tanking, so I think encouraging monsters to attack you might not be such a good idea.  I haven't looked closely enough at the other paladin powers to know how helpful they'd be, however.

GawainBS

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Re: Yet another attempt at a WotST-gish
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2008, 09:27:59 PM »
What do you mean with "couplet at the bottom"? I don't understand. (Not a native English speaker.)
Well, I've read some Paladin-Cha based powers that do not require you to tank, but just let you deal 2[W] + Cha damage and some other effect.
Even so, I'm counting on my fellow player-tank to do some "ping pong" tanking, or maybe I'll tank the lesser threat.

BTW, I'm soooo happy with that Swordmage! ;)

DemonLord57

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Re: Yet another attempt at a WotST-gish
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2008, 09:45:36 PM »
What do you mean with "couplet at the bottom"?
He means the 'couplet' of Wis and Cha. Since the highest in each of the 3 groups of two stats is added to each defense, he's calling it the bottom (as in last/lowest) couplet.

GawainBS

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Re: Yet another attempt at a WotST-gish
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2008, 09:50:29 PM »
Ah, yes, I got it now. Thanks!

GawainBS

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Re: Yet another attempt at a WotST-gish
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2008, 11:14:57 PM »
I have been rethinking this character and after rereading Treantmonk's Guide, I decided to use more WIS instead of CHA, drop the multiclassing and also drop Spell Focus.
Race still is Eladrin.
These are my starting stats:
STR 12, DEX 12, CON 12, INT 20, WIS 12, CHA 8.
At lvl 4 I'd add Con (for Hide Armour), at 8 Dex , at 12 Dex (Now at 15, for Evasion, Arcane Reach, Shield Spec ), at 16 Wis, at 24 Wis and at 28 Con. The other points would go in INT, of course. Including the lvl 10 & 20 stat increases, this gives me:

STR 14, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 28, WIS 16, CHA 10.

I'm going to take the Demigod Path, so I get to add 2x +2. One boost goes to INT, but I doubt about the other one. DEX for initiative? CON for the HP & Surge, since I'll be in melee often and have Staff of Defense. Or WIS, for Spell Accuracy and Thunderwave?

Thanks in advance!

Fuzzy_Logic

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Re: Yet another attempt at a WotST-gish
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2008, 07:44:29 PM »
The Wizard class chassis is terrible.  Also, one you're in Wizard, I found few powers form other classes particularly worth the dip.

Instead, I recommend multiclassing INTO Wizard.  Here's my Wizard of the Spiral Tower build:

Eladrin Warlord:
Stats: INT, STR, WIS
Feats:
1 Arcane Initiate (Scorching Burst)
2 Tactical Assault
4 Novice Power
6 Staff Focus (if applies to spells); else Toughness
8 Initiaite Power
10 Adept Power

Powers:
1 Commander's Strike, Wolf Pack Tactics, Warlord's Favor, Lead the Attack
2 Aid the Injured -> Shield
3 Steel Monsoon -> Color Spray
5 Stand the Fallen
6 Guide the Charge
7 Surprise Attack
9 Knock them Down -> Ice Storm

Build Notes: At level one you fight with longsword & shield and in hide armor, which make syou harder to hit than a chain-armored warlord. Your attacks have less accuracy and damage--except commanders' strike, which is better. Unlike a typical warlord, you have Perception and an area spell for clearing mobs.

As you advance in level you acquire 3 powers that give your +int to hit and several more that give it to damage. You sacrifice some AC to switch to a magic staff so that you only need one implement. Fey Step sets up your Color Spray for you. By Level 10 you're a true tactical leader who can dispense healing, artillery fire, and buffing.

Level 11+ -- the obvious choice is to go Wizard of the Spiral Tower, giving you top-notch INT-based sword attack and the option to renew your wizard spell. This lets you go back to sword and board fighitng, boosting AC and damage. You get a Frost Longsowrd, Burning Blizzard and Lasting Frost, and go nuts. Alternatively, if you really want more spells, go paragon wizard. At this point your at-wills are purely INT-based, not STR-based at all, and you'll have quite a grip of battlefield control powers. Stick with your staff, as your weapon die won't often matter anyway.

Either way you'll want the Combat Commander feat to give off a +5 initiative aura.

GawainBS

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Re: Yet another attempt at a WotST-gish
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2008, 08:17:47 PM »
Suppose I'm not intrested in multiclassing.
Also, apart from your Paragon Path powers, your Wizard powers will not be hitting a lot, since you aren't using an implement for them.

Fuzzy_Logic

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Re: Yet another attempt at a WotST-gish
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2008, 05:25:34 AM »
I guess I just don't see the point of WotST if you *don't* multiclass.  You gain the ability to use  alongsword in place on an implement -- but have no use for a lognsword outside of your paragon path.  You get two melee attacks--awesome ones, sure, but why clutter up an otherwise ranged build with a once/ecnoutner melee effect.  Just getting another blasting spell seems way more effective. 

Alpha

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Re: Yet another attempt at a WotST-gish
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2008, 05:16:32 PM »
I guess I just don't see the point of WotST if you *don't* multiclass.  You gain the ability to use  alongsword in place on an implement -- but have no use for a lognsword outside of your paragon path.  You get two melee attacks--awesome ones, sure, but why clutter up an otherwise ranged build with a once/ecnoutner melee effect.  Just getting another blasting spell seems way more effective. 
1.  Multiclassing still doesn't give access to the Corellon's Blade ability, so you still don't get to use your longsword as an implement unless you start as a wizard.  This is a bigger problem than you might think, as the logistics of wielding a wand with a longsword can get complicated enough to make you scream.
2.  Warlord(the only fully viable class to multiclass into wizard for a gish--other classes suffer from MAD, thus making wizard base more viable) is a leader class(shock and surprise!).  For myself, I don't WANT to be a leader-gish.
3.  Multiclassing swordmage may add some longsword utility to our Wizard-gish, depending on the powers that come out in the FR books.
4.  There is a surprising number of wizard blast spells.  Thunderwave is just the most primary example, but there is a good array of powers where the wizard would benefit greatly from getting in close.
5.  Even without Heavy Blade Opportunity, a wizard/WotST can still be very good at Opportunity Attacks.
Finally(and most important),
**6.  Starting as a wizard makes you a controller FIRST.  The wizard/WotST is not about becoming a striker, and it's not about being an arcane melee leader(as with your warlord/WotST).  It's about being a melee controller.  Keep in mind that the wizard is still the only full controller.  So far we have a ranged leader and a melee leader, two melee defenders(with one semi-ranged defender coming out with assault swordmages), two ranged strikers and one melee striker, one ranged controller and another ranged leader(artificer playtest) in the wings.  The only option for a melee controller at this point is the wizard/WotST.  In fact, it appears as though this is what the PP was designed for in the first place.