Author Topic: Spring attack and touch attack spells  (Read 3354 times)

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brislove

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Spring attack and touch attack spells
« on: August 19, 2008, 02:05:42 PM »
if I use smiting spell, to make my touch attack charge be part of my weapon. Can I spring attack in the same round? Touch spells give you the option to touch in the round you cast them (as a free action) with smiting spell that would be an attack with a weapon. So does spring attack work with this?

Quote from: SRD

So guess it comes down to is the "free" attack made the same round as casting a touch spell with smiting spell considered "the attack action". I know it works in future rounds if you hold the charge.

I'm sure this has come up and is buried in swiftblade threads somewhere, but many of them are hard to get to now that gleemax has f'd everything up.

brislove

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Re: Spring attack and touch attack spells
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2008, 01:28:53 AM »
wow I was really expecting someone to just give me a clear cut answer one way or the other....

so basically we don't know if the attack that you get via casting a touch spell and using smiting spell works with spring attack?

dman11235

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Re: Spring attack and touch attack spells
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2008, 01:41:23 AM »
What action does casting the spell take?  Anyone?  Usually a standard action.  Which...cannot be used in conjunction with SA.  If you were to hold the charge...then sure, it would work.  But that would require casting the spell on the previous round (barring extra actions) and THEN using SA to attack.  Since the spell goes off the first time you touch someone, it goes off with the weapon in SA.

Also....Smiting Spell does not change the action type for casting the spell from standard to attack (which is a standard).
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Spring attack and touch attack spells
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2008, 06:47:10 AM »
Well, seeing as usually the attack action takes the part of the standard action, and you're using your move action to move with Spring Attack, as a DM I would probably rule that you could cast and attack with a standard action spell during a spring attack sequence. But that probably would be a house-rule.
Don't know about smiting spell, though, since I don't know the exact wording of the smiting spell feat.

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Re: Spring attack and touch attack spells
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2008, 12:13:07 PM »
dman has it right... and Brainpiercing too IMO. Spring Attack needs to be made more like Fly-By Attack.
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brislove

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Re: Spring attack and touch attack spells
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2008, 02:04:16 PM »
Spring attack only states that you must use the attack action with a melee weapon and then use your move action both before and after the attack. It's not a full-round action that includes an attack.

The question by RAW is does a touch spell let you use an attack action as a free action that round? It lets you make an attack as a free action, but does that count for spring attack?

Breakdown goes like this:
Standard: Cast touch spell
Move-attack-move

I would probably (house)rule it working as well, because spring attack is a bunch of feats, what I'm wondering is if it works by RAW. I'm not sold either way to be honest.

Dman Why doesn't a standard action work in conjuntion with Spring Attack, it only requires an attack with a melee weapon?

Caelic

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Re: Spring attack and touch attack spells
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2008, 06:19:37 PM »
Touch attacks very specifically give you the ability to attempt to touch the target--nothing more, nothing less.  It's not defined as a free action (by definition, in fact, it is not a free action, since otherwise you'd get to keep trying until you hit.)  Attempting to generalize from this to "Touch spells allow an attack action as a free action" is not supported by the rules as written.  If you choose to transfer your touch spell to a weapon, then you're forgoing the normal opportunity to attempt to touch the target; I don't think you can reasonably argue that any other interpretation is firmly grounded in the rules.

brislove

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Re: Spring attack and touch attack spells
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2008, 07:19:21 PM »
Touch attacks very specifically give you the ability to attempt to touch the target--nothing more, nothing less.  It's not defined as a free action (by definition, in fact, it is not a free action, since otherwise you'd get to keep trying until you hit.)  Attempting to generalize from this to "Touch spells allow an attack action as a free action" is not supported by the rules as written.  If you choose to transfer your touch spell to a weapon, then you're forgoing the normal opportunity to attempt to touch the target; I don't think you can reasonably argue that any other interpretation is firmly grounded in the rules.

conceded. I must stand corrected. It seems smiting spell gives you no option to touch the target, your free touch just vanishes with the use of smiting spell.

I asked for this answer. Smiting spell is useless it seems. and touching is clearly not an attack with a weapon. so this leaves no room for debate.

thanks Caelic, and everyone else.

Caelic

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Re: Spring attack and touch attack spells
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2008, 11:09:14 PM »
Oh, I disagree that Smiting Spell's useless; it's just not particularly useful for this (at least by RAW--like many other DMs here, I'd be inclined to houserule that you can use a touch spell with Spring Attack.)

Runestar

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Re: Spring attack and touch attack spells
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2008, 02:11:45 AM »
Smiting spell can be fun if your archer cleric wants to deliver ranged heals... :D
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AndyJames

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Re: Spring attack and touch attack spells
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2008, 02:12:58 AM »
Ah yes. The hypodermic needles of "I feeeeel goood! Nana-nana-na!"

Brainpiercing

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Re: Spring attack and touch attack spells
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2008, 07:17:16 AM »
It gets worse once you get touch spells that allow you to do multiple touch attacks. There is AFAIK no RAW definition of what to do then, other than implicitly. The Sage or FAQ stated that you could do all your touch attacks in one round, but that can get ugly.
Take, for example, the spell Touch of the Graveborn. It allows one touch attack per three caster levels. I don't remember whether there's a maximum. Now if you do some crazy CL boost shenanigans, this could mean you get seven or eight or more touch attacks with one spell, and theoretically you could deliver them all in the same round. Funny enough, for beneficial spells you are limited to touching, IIRC, seven allies.

Now as I DM I would house-rule that, too. I just haven't managed to think of a satisfying mechanism. Smiting spell goes all awry with so many targets, and Spring Attacking while touching multiple enemies does seem a bit over the top.

What is still unclear to me is the optimum sequence for a house-rule: Moving-casting-touching-moving, or casting-moving-touching-moving? The first fits the spirit of spring attack the closest, while the second is much more powerful.

AndyJames

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Re: Spring attack and touch attack spells
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2008, 08:20:53 AM »
It gets worse once you get touch spells that allow you to do multiple touch attacks. There is AFAIK no RAW definition of what to do then, other than implicitly. The Sage or FAQ stated that you could do all your touch attacks in one round, but that can get ugly.
Take, for example, the spell Touch of the Graveborn. It allows one touch attack per three caster levels. I don't remember whether there's a maximum. Now if you do some crazy CL boost shenanigans, this could mean you get seven or eight or more touch attacks with one spell, and theoretically you could deliver them all in the same round. Funny enough, for beneficial spells you are limited to touching, IIRC, seven allies.

Now as I DM I would house-rule that, too. I just haven't managed to think of a satisfying mechanism. Smiting spell goes all awry with so many targets, and Spring Attacking while touching multiple enemies does seem a bit over the top.

What is still unclear to me is the optimum sequence for a house-rule: Moving-casting-touching-moving, or casting-moving-touching-moving? The first fits the spirit of spring attack the closest, while the second is much more powerful.
Worse than that. Think about Chill Touch. 1 touch per level, no cap; 1d6 damage per touch; Fort save or take 1 Str damage per touch. Level 1 spell...