Lockdown(s) and related topics

[Tshern]

What I meant was that I don't see how the lack of access made the Lockdown build totally useless against casters even though it still had tools to use against them in particular when many of the arguments used to defend casters involved unlikely contingencies and using Abrupt jaunt.

Thanks for pointing out the unclear nature of the post.

[Ubernoob]

Couldn't lockdown any spellcaster? So Mage slayer and all those were there just for extra fun? To me the useless assumptions of all casters having Abrupt jaunt or at least perfectly worded contingencies in all cases was way more absurd.

Two things:
Swift action short range teleportation movement from items(there are several just in MIC).
Swift action spells that either teleport or just make the fighter lose.

I don't give a shit about abrupt jaunt or contingencies.  I care about things like quickened benign transposition and the anklet of translocation.

[Omen of Peace]

It is relevant: Mage Slayer in a Lock is enough for most spellcasters. And I'm saying that even though I was defending mage builds in the thread (late mea culpa).

Look at various spellcasters you've played in the past (if you have...), and tell me how well they'd fare against a Lock: I know many of mine wouldn't do well, and they're reasonably optimized. But I may be a counterexample.

edit: oops, tab left open a bit too long. Stop posting, people, you're too fast !

[Ubernoob]

It is relevant: Mage Slayer in a Lock is enough for most spellcasters. And I'm saying that even though I was defending mage builds in the thread (late mea culpa).

Look at various spellcasters you've played in the past (if you have...), and tell me how well they'd fare against a Lock: I know many of mine wouldn't do well, and they're reasonably optimized. But I may be a counterexample.

Assuming no AMF?
The Clerics-Just kill him.  They own him in melee.
The Druids-Like the cleric, but quicker.
The Wizards-Escape every fucking time.  If they didn't it's because they are a gish, not a wizard.  The gishes just kill lockdown.

I've never played a caster that would not win against Ael's lockdown build unless I started with 4 few levels minimum.  It's seriously that cute.  That's why I made lockdown 2.0.  I don't like it when people advocate traps.

With the AMF, Aelryinth is still short a move and a swift action from his sequence to actually be legal.  Yes, he flat out doesn't have enough actions to bring the AMF into play.  That's with a belt of battle by the way.

So, yeah.  Casters either kill Ael's lockdown or ignore him.  If you actually read through his thread you'd see that.
Note: I don't suggest you do that.  It hurts the eyes as well as the mind.

[Tshern]

Using a swift action requires that it is your turn. Not every game has Celerities available even if you aren't flat-footed. In case the Lockdown gets the benefit of surprise or wins initiative (quite unlikely against a Wizard, more likely against Clerics after Sign got nerfed) he can start debuffing his enemies.

Interestingly, I have planned on building a psionic Lockdown already before this thread. The reason behind this is that I want to make good use of low level powers and Deep impact. Naturally it assumes Mageslayer doesn't reduce your manifester level...

[Ubernoob]

Using a swift action requires that it is your turn. Not every game has Celerities available even if you aren't flat-footed. In case the Lockdown gets the benefit of surprise or wins initiative (quite unlikely against a Wizard, more likely against Clerics after Sign got nerfed) he can start debuffing his enemies.

What does that matter?  Lockdown doesn't have enough actions to attack you the first turn.  The build as Ael has written *can not* actually lock people down.  That's the whole issue.

Interestingly, I have planned on building a psionic Lockdown already before this thread. The reason behind this is that I want to make good use of low level powers and Deep impact. Naturally it assumes Mageslayer doesn't reduce your manifester level...

I'd love to help you with that.  I was fiddling with that before I considered that some might say mage slayer reduces ML.

[Tshern]

No actions even if he doesn't use the Torc?

I am still working on with another huge project, so I am postponing it for now. Or at least I am not actively making any process. Luckily most of the guidelines and ideas are already there because of Lockdown 1 and 2. I was kind of considering combining it with some King of Smack-esque damage to increase the Lockdown DC and overall damage output. Crusader, Warmind and some other dips...

Feel free to contact me if you really want to join the project. With another guy helping I think I can work on both of my projects.

[Omen of Peace]

I'm changing the order a bit.

So, yeah.  Casters either kill Ael's lockdown or ignore him.  If you actually read through his thread you'd see that.

I have read and posted in that thread. My conclusion at the time was that a caster who is prepared for Lockdown has good chances of defeating him. On the other hand, a caster that is not prepared is likely to lose, and most casters are not prepared (they have few reasons to be since Lockdown is just one man).

Assuming no AMF?
The Clerics-Just kill him.  They own him in melee.
The Druids-Like the cleric, but quicker.
The Wizards-Escape every fucking time.  If they didn't it's because they are a gish, not a wizard.  The gishes just kill lockdown.

What level are we talking about ? That makes a big difference.
Also what sources are open ?

With the AMF, Aelryinth is still short a move and a swift action from his sequence to actually be legal.  Yes, he flat out doesn't have enough actions to bring the AMF into play.  That's with a belt of battle by the way.

Agreed - the sequence described in the thread was shown not to work.

[Ubernoob]

Omen-

Druids: At every level the animal companion is more effective in combat than the lockdown build.  I'm not shitting you.  The druid can just spend a free action to have the animal companion come kill lockdown.
Clerics: Are better than animal companions in melee with buffs.  Since lockdown *cannot* get an AMF on you, you will be able to just beat him up.  Remember, one full attack is death in 3.5.
Wizards: Use either an anklet of translocation or their familar and quickened benign transposition to get out of the threatened area.  After that they take a move action to fly up and cast a no save spell.  Ray of dizziness and solid fog are good examples.

At low levels (below 10) they can just tumble out.  At high levels they have the wealth and magic to kick it's ass.  If it wasn't a trap I wouldn't have wasted a week building 2.0, which frankly is a terrible build.  I've never seen a party that would want it.

[Omen of Peace]

Lockdown has a reach advantage on the Druid and its AC, and they cannot close in - once he's got Thicket of course. Karmic Strike might help before that - but it probably doesn't have enough feats ? It's been a while since I took a look at it.

Cleric: yes if they use DMM (Quicken or Persist). Otherwise Mage Slayer prevents them from getting their buffs in place. Why do you say Lockdown cannot spring the AMF on them ? I'd think it's not a sure thing either way.

Wizard: the Anklet is pretty good, I agree. But 10ft is not enough if Lockdown is Enlarged or a Half-Ogre (Khan's build) in the first place. Do you always buy them ? Given that it's rare the wizard can't just step back and cast, I usually do without.

Benign Transposition requires the familiar not to be with the wizard in the first place... which I've rarely seen happen given how squishy familiars are. I only send mine scouting when they're Improved Familiars (an invisible imp for instance), the mage is sneaky (ranks in hide/MS) or they're flying and we're low-level.

Unlike aelrynth, I won't pretend Lockdown always wins. But it does a good job - better than most.

[Ubernoob]

Lockdown has a reach advantage on the Druid and its AC, and they cannot close in - once he's got Thicket of course. Karmic Strike might help before that - but it probably doesn't have enough feats ? It's been a while since I took a look at it.

Animal companions tend to be big.  Very big.  If lockdown has the action to tank a potion then the druid has an action to cast a spell. 

Cleric: yes if they use DMM (Quicken or Persist). Otherwise Mage Slayer prevents them from getting their buffs in place. Why do you say Lockdown cannot spring the AMF on them ? I'd think it's not a sure thing either way.

Lockdown doesn't have the actions to put an AMF on anyone.  Until it finds a way to get the extra actions, I'm going to assume a RAW environment.  That means no AMF on the cleric or anyone else.  As for the cleric, I was assuming a DMM cleric.  Clerics without DMM tend to do other things, so it would be stupid for lockdown to target those clerics in a combat.

Wizard: the Anklet is pretty good, I agree. But 10ft is not enough if Lockdown is Enlarged or a Half-Ogre (Khan's build) in the first place.
Benign Transposition requires the familiar not to be with the wizard in the first place... which I've rarely seen happen given how squishy familiars are. I only send mine scouting when they're Improved Familiars (an invisible imp for instance), the mage is sneaky (ranks in hide/MS) or they're flying and we're low-level.

Unlike aelrynth, I won't pretend Lockdown always wins. But it does a good job - better than most.

You can't make AoOs on someone with cover from you.  The wizard's body grants his familiar cover as it flies straight out.

Yeah, the three big core casters don't give a shit about the original build.  If it could do what it had stated, I wouldn't have wasted a week building the second.

[Omen of Peace]

Just realized you've placed the argument on the "duel" terrain, which is better for you than for me. 
So before going any farther: Lockdown is meant to be used in a party. Just like a Batman/God wizard has helpers.

Animal companions tend to be big.  Very big.  If lockdown has the action to tank a potion then the druid has an action to cast a spell. 

Not if he's in reach - that's the point of Mage Slayer after all.

Lockdown doesn't have the actions to put an AMF on anyone.  Until it finds a way to get the extra actions, I'm going to assume a RAW environment.  That means no AMF on the cleric or anyone else.  As for the cleric, I was assuming a DMM cleric.  Clerics without DMM tend to do other things, so it would be stupid for lockdown to target those clerics in a combat.

Extra actions ? Belt of Battle. It's kosher if you assume DMM (I don't, because games I generally play in don't have it - but I admit it's a personal bias).
If Lockdown uses the AMF he won't need to use a potion IIRC. (Round 1: move to 10ft away from cleric, activate item)

You can't make AoOs on someone with cover from you.  The wizard's body grants his familiar cover as it flies straight out.

Good point. Precise Swing helps with that IIRC but that's another feat, and not one with a high priority. The question becomes how often wizard prepares that - but it's a little too subjective for my taste.

Yeah, the three big core casters don't give a shit about the original build.  If it could do what it had stated, I wouldn't have wasted a week building the second.

I still disagree. 

[Ubernoob]

Just realized you've placed the argument on the "duel" terrain, which is better for you than for me. 
So before going any farther: Lockdown is meant to be used in a party. Just like a Batman/God wizard has helpers.

And the lack of dealing damage or actually killing things in melee means it fails to contribute.  Either you kill things dead or you aid in the killing of things dead.  No mass buffs, no debuffs, and sad sad damage.  It fails to contribute in a party.

Animal companions tend to be big.  Very big.  If lockdown has the action to tank a potion then the druid has an action to cast a spell. 

Not if he's in reach - that's the point of Mage Slayer after all.

That five feet of reach is a good point.  The bear can't jump that 5' to get into melee range at level 10.  Later on the druid can have a large enough companion to stay out of lockdown's reach.  However, the druid will still eat lockdown's face since the druid has wildshape(large).

Lockdown doesn't have the actions to put an AMF on anyone.  Until it finds a way to get the extra actions, I'm going to assume a RAW environment.  That means no AMF on the cleric or anyone else.  As for the cleric, I was assuming a DMM cleric.  Clerics without DMM tend to do other things, so it would be stupid for lockdown to target those clerics in a combat.

Extra actions ? Belt of Battle. It's kosher if you assume DMM (I don't, because games I generally play in don't have it - but I admit it's a personal bias).
If Lockdown uses the AMF he won't need to use a potion IIRC. (Round 1: move to 10ft away from cleric, activate item)

Ael assumed a belt of battle.  If he's using the torc he'll have to get adjacent.  That's a bitch at level 10.  Wildshape(large), rightous might, overland flight, etc.

You can't make AoOs on someone with cover from you.  The wizard's body grants his familiar cover as it flies straight out.

Good point. Precise Swing helps with that IIRC but that's another feat, and not one with a high priority. The question becomes how often wizard prepares that - but it's a little too subjective for my taste.

I've never had a tenth level wizard that hasn't prepared quickened benign transposition.

Yeah, the three big core casters don't give a shit about the original build.  If it could do what it had stated, I wouldn't have wasted a week building the second.

I still disagree. 

After this I'll just start a fresh set of quotes since I forgot to label my subsequent quotes at the start.

[Omen of Peace]

And the lack of dealing damage or actually killing things in melee means it fails to contribute.  Either you kill things dead or you aid in the killing of things dead.  No mass buffs, no debuffs, and sad sad damage.  It fails to contribute in a party.

Stopping opponents from moving is a debuff ! That's part of the point of several great spells (Grease, Web, Solid Fog - though they have different properties too).

As for damage, I suspect we play in games at different Op levels : about ~3 for me, more like 3.8 for you (if DMM and FB uberchargers are everywhere). That would explain a lot in our disagreement.

I've never had a tenth level wizard that hasn't prepared quickened benign transposition.

Interesting - I've never prepared it at level 10. I have mobility spells prepared, but not quickened (Benign Transposition, Dimension Leap/Step, Teleport...) ; and I fill my 5th level slots with 5th level spells.
Later on, I'd probably Imbue the familiar with spells instead of quickening them.

Have you often needed that quickened BT ?

[Ubernoob]

And the lack of dealing damage or actually killing things in melee means it fails to contribute.  Either you kill things dead or you aid in the killing of things dead.  No mass buffs, no debuffs, and sad sad damage.  It fails to contribute in a party.

Stopping opponents from moving is a debuff ! That's part of the point of several great spells (Grease, Web, Solid Fog - though they have different properties too).

You stop an enemy from moving so that you can fill it with arrows without it fighting back.  If you let an ally in the enemy's threatened area that can't solo the monster you're doing something wrong.

As for damage, I suspect we play in games at different Op levels : about ~3 for me, more like 3.8 for you (if DMM and FB uberchargers are everywhere). That would explain a lot in our disagreement.

I play most games in a world closer to that which Frank and K's tome suggests.  If you're not powerful you have no place being a hero.  Most of the time, anyway.

I've never had a tenth level wizard that hasn't prepared quickened benign transposition.

Interesting - I've never prepared it at level 10. I have mobility spells prepared, but not quickened (Benign Transposition, Dimension Leap/Step, Teleport...) ; and I fill my 5th level slots with 5th level spells.
Later on, I'd probably Imbue the familiar with spells instead of quickening them.

Have you often needed that quickened BT ?

Run up to the enemy (move action), quickened BT to put the beatstick in there to get off a full attack on the first round, standard drop either a solid fog to keep the enemy from running away from the melee or something like ray of dizziness to keep them from escaping and from full attacking.

So, yeah.  It's a way to get more out of my move action.

[Omen of Peace]

You stop an enemy from moving so that you can fill it with arrows without it fighting back.  If you let an ally in the enemy's threatened area that can't solo the monster you're doing something wrong.

But Lockdown is great as the companion to an archer ! No bothersome total concealment due to a fog or total cover due to Web.
The goal is of course to outreach your opponent. It won't always be possible, but Large size + reach weapon should go a long way.

I play most games in a world closer to that which Frank and K's tome suggests.

That's what I thought. It does explain a lot in our disagreeing: no wonder you're dissatisfied with most melee builds if you compare them to Tome builds.

If you're not powerful you have no place being a hero.  Most of the time, anyway.

Uh, "powerful" is eminently subjective.

Run up to the enemy (move action), quickened BT to put the beatstick in there to get off a full attack on the first round, standard drop either a solid fog to keep the enemy from running away from the melee or something like ray of dizziness to keep them from escaping and from full attacking.

So, yeah.  It's a way to get more out of my move action.

Interesting. I agree it's a good tactic (it's exactly the kind of thing I use an UMD familiar for - hurray for Eternal Wands) but I wouldn't sacrifice a 5th level slot for it when they're my highest-level slots.

[Ubernoob]

Wow.  Having two layers of quotes does make it more difficult to make point by point discussions.  Forgive me if I just manually do this.

But Lockdown is great as the companion to an archer ! No bothersome total concealment due to a fog or total cover due to Web.
The goal is of course to outreach your opponent. It won't always be possible, but Large size + reach weapon should go a long way.

I disagree.  Lockdown actually gets into melee range.  With his lack of damage output it means that the archer has to do that much more to make up for the slack.  With something as easy as solid fog even people that suck at archery can just kill it til it dies.  The ratio of enemies dead to risks taken is important, not how long it takes.

That's what I thought. It does explain a lot in our disagreeing: no wonder you're dissatisfied with most melee builds if you compare them to Tome builds.

Actually, I compare them to a moderately played caster.  Things like uber chargers are fine without tome rules.  Fuck, swift hunters are fine (very nice DPS, mobility, skills, and some light casting?  Not bad).  Even core fighters statted out for tripping are fine.  Why?  They impose additional penalties in conjunction with the BC.  My lockdown 2.0 would be hard pressed to keep up in one of the games I'm used to.  Ael's would be lost in the dust.  Either you kill things dead or you help other people kill things dead in a nonreplacable way.  Otherwise you are dead weight.

Uh, "powerful" is eminently subjective.

Indeed.  Things like daring outlaws are powerful.  I don't expect awesome casters.  I expect solid contributions.  Multi-threats are always good.

Interesting. I agree it's a good tactic (it's exactly the kind of thing I use an UMD familiar for - hurray for Eternal Wands) but I wouldn't sacrifice a 5th level slot for it when they're my highest-level slots.

This is the point where I usually hold back.  I usually ignore my familiar for combat unless there is an oh shit moment.  I feel that the extra actions it grants an optimized wizard are too much most of the time.

Yeah, I hold back and don't use my familiar as much as I could.  Imbue familiar with spell ability is a very good thing, but too powerful for my standard load.

[Omen of Peace]

Solid Fog is actually a bad example (but I'm the one who brought it up) because it prevents ranged weapon attacks. Even if it didn't, total concealment means it's useful only to slow opponents enough so that the first wave is taken care of when the second wave arrives - Lockdown does that too.
Lockdown gets into his melee range - again he should outreach the opponent.

Oh, and I don't defend aelrynth's exact build - I've said before that levels of Crusaders should be in there somewhere. Possibly Psychic Warrior to make it bloom earlier too.

I've never seen a tripping fighter in action at intermediate+ levels, but my impression is that they lose steam given the Str+size deficit.

I don't want to give the wrong impression: I don't always optimize the familiars ! I think I've used Imbue Familiar a grand total of once till now.

I think we're running out of things to discuss/disagree on.   

[Ubernoob]

Solid Fog is actually a bad example (but I'm the one who brought it up) because it prevents ranged weapon attacks. Even if it didn't, total concealment means it's useful only to slow opponents enough so that the first wave is taken care of when the second wave arrives - Lockdown does that too.
Lockdown gets into his melee range - again he should outreach the opponent.

Except the fact that lockdown is pretty much stuck at 20' reach.  The monsters that are really scary to mages have more reach than that.

Oh, and I don't defend aelrynth's exact build - I've said before that levels of Crusaders should be in there somewhere. Possibly Psychic Warrior to make it bloom earlier too.

I've never seen a tripping fighter in action at intermediate+ levels, but my impression is that they lose steam given the Str+size deficit.

That's what things like warhulk are for.  Trip fighters don't need bab as much since they work primarily on AoOs.  Warmind is also good for trippers for expansion.

I don't want to give the wrong impression: I don't always optimize the familiars ! I think I've used Imbue Familiar a grand total of once till now.

I think we're running out of things to discuss/disagree on.   

I think we've covered most of the major points.

[Tshern]

Glabrezus have 15ft reach actually. None of the demons on that page have more than that.