Author Topic: Today's playtest lesson  (Read 3087 times)

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AstralFire

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Today's playtest lesson
« on: August 17, 2008, 03:31:00 AM »
Optimization does not give you fighting strategy.

Charging into a mass of ogres after you just nearly half-deaded their boss trying to speak to you on peace terms can kill even a tricked out character. As one of my PCs learned (and was unhappy about enough to consider jumping and drifting into the positive energy plane.)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 03:34:29 AM by AstralFire »


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Psychic Robot

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Re: Today's playtest lesson
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2008, 10:07:36 PM »
Details.

fil kearney

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Re: Today's playtest lesson
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2008, 10:35:51 PM »
Charging into a mass of ogres after you just nearly half-deaded their boss trying to speak to you on peace terms can kill even a tricked out character.

pfft.  unless it's a 15th level SAMURAI!  kia!!!!

AstralFire

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Re: Today's playtest lesson
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2008, 10:53:11 PM »
Details.

Setting: A positive-energy shielded castle on the positive energy plane. She teleport-pounced into a mass of semi-optimized melee ogres and dealt half their leader's HP in damage immediately after the ogres offered to peacefully take the PCs to their leader once the PCs convinced the ogres they were here just to talk.

Four ogres proceeded to wail on her well before the rest of the short-range party could get into position.


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CoarsestGrate

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Re: Today's playtest lesson
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2008, 11:02:55 PM »
Setting: A positive-energy shielded castle on the positive energy plane. She teleport-pounced into a mass of semi-optimized melee ogres and dealt half their leader's HP in damage immediately after the ogres offered to peacefully take the PCs to their leader once the PCs convinced the ogres they were here just to talk.

Four ogres proceeded to wail on her well before the rest of the short-range party could get into position.

:facepalm

What, was she hoping the leader would die and the ogres would just surrender immediately after?

AstralFire

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Re: Today's playtest lesson
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2008, 11:10:37 PM »
Setting: A positive-energy shielded castle on the positive energy plane. She teleport-pounced into a mass of semi-optimized melee ogres and dealt half their leader's HP in damage immediately after the ogres offered to peacefully take the PCs to their leader once the PCs convinced the ogres they were here just to talk.

Four ogres proceeded to wail on her well before the rest of the short-range party could get into position.

:facepalm

What, was she hoping the leader would die and the ogres would just surrender immediately after?

She was hoping her mediocre AC and 50% miss chance would be enough to make up for her meh HP and lack of DR. Wasn't very happy either when she found out one of the ogres was a Warblade with Thicket of Blades and Stand Still.


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ZeroSpace

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Re: Today's playtest lesson
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2008, 11:44:13 PM »
Interesting. You would think such an action would be obviously bad, but I guess not.

By any chance, did said gamer say 'Leeroy Jenkins' at any time?
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Bozwevial

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Re: Today's playtest lesson
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2008, 12:18:15 AM »
Hey, at least she has chicken.

I once ran a group composed of three people: Your basic "grade 1 optimizer" as a CW samurai who played tactically well but was mechanically weak, a grade 4 bordering on 5 ur-priest who was great with the numbers and such but a lot less smart about when to use his stuff, and their mediator who was somewhere around grade 3 but played memorable characters. Player A extolled the virtues of "pure roleplaying" and criticized the ur-priest's tactics, Player B pointed out that he could singlehandedly tackle pretty much any fight they had had for the last four levels, and Player C kept trying to get them to stop bickering and focus on the game.

Oddly, I'm pretty sure C and I were the only ones who actually enjoyed the game. A was getting constantly screwed over, which took all the fun out of his desire to play an awesome samurai, and B spent so much time on the numbers that he hardly noticed what was going on unless the words "monster", "trap" or "treasure" were involved.

Moral: Combining roleplaying and optimization is good. Just make sure you have some common sense in the mix.

ZeroSpace

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Re: Today's playtest lesson
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2008, 03:19:16 PM »
Truer words were never spoken Bozwevial. G-fu for you.
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Talisman

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Re: Today's playtest lesson
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2008, 01:37:59 AM »
I would say that optimization does not replace strategy...but good strategy can compensate for subpar optimization.

Also: the value of any PC's optimization varies in direct proportion to the optimizer level of the GM.
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AstralFire

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Re: Today's playtest lesson
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2008, 01:43:42 PM »
I would say that optimization does not replace strategy...but good strategy can compensate for subpar optimization.

Also: the value of any PC's optimization varies in direct proportion to the optimizer level of the GM.

I'm a lesser optimizer than most who carry the label, but I have a weak sense of strategy that doesn't get blocked out while I'm playing. Most strategists I'm aware of who also optimize seem to have a switch where they only do one or the other. For the most part I'm a roleplayer.


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Zuki

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Re: Today's playtest lesson
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2008, 02:43:34 AM »
I remember once reading some campaign reports from people going back and playing old-old-school 1st edition modules. Village of Hommlet, Against the Giants, that sort of thing.

One of the things the DM mentioned was that the more experienced players jumped right into using strategy and tactics to overcome stacked odds. I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet that there wasn't quite as much room for maneuvering around and optimizing characters, the further back into editions you go.

The idea of a Optimization/Strategy rift amuses me, if indeed one has steadily become more popular over time as the game has evolved.

More accurately, this is probably a false dichotomy--4e seems to stress inter-party cooperation very strongly and has a strong focus on the battlegrid and tactical movement. In that respect, it could be seen as a move back to DnD's wargaming roots. But I think it's undeniable that the companies that published DnD have noticed that, 'players like more options'--that is, more material to optimize. Since designing characters has become another part of the fun of the game for my people, books are published in keeping with that. Perhaps the ease with which one can design a Wizard, CoDzilla, or some other game-breaking build to be effective in any situation lends to less need for such cooperation? I don't know enough about the history of minmaxing in 2nd edition, and my knowledge of likewise 1st edition optimization is limited to a bizarre piece of fiction I read once.

DMs should probably tailor the levels of strategy and optimization used by opponents to those used by players. It need not be exact--enemies fighting smart, like the classic Viet Kongbolds example, might be a frustratingly interesting encounter for a bunch of cocksure minmaxers--make them use those smarts and powerful characters up against a challenge more complicated than numbers, eh?

On the other hand, it's somewhere between rude and sadistic to spring that sort of encounter against rawer players.

dman11235

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Re: Today's playtest lesson
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2008, 03:14:01 AM »
Viet Kongbolds.  So totally yoinked.

Also, you read "Tier System for Classes" Zuki?  It's on the Min/Max boards.  You should read it.  That last paragraph....right on the money.
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Bozwevial

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Re: Today's playtest lesson
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2008, 10:52:09 AM »
I put a version of the Kongbolds into a game once. The players were 10th level and about 2 of them nearly died.