Author Topic: Wraith - "Kill Me"  (Read 2842 times)

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awaken DM golem

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Wraith - "Kill Me"
« on: August 16, 2008, 05:09:26 PM »
Wraiths don't look like much. Insubstantial is quite nerfed from 3.5. But there is a hinky little something ...

Each of the 4 Wraith entries have the spawn free-willed Wraith thingy in it's box.
They also put that in the Knowledge check section.
The even put it in the 1st line describing Wraiths in general.

So, you find a Wraith, or your DM "gives" you one, or it's on your items wishlist (yeah it's abroad definition of ~item).
You tell the Wraith "Kill Me", or you just get yourself killed.
One round later, you are a Wraith.

Lucky you. { ... insert wotc's dead/ghost smiley face, and it's reverse ...}
Personally, I doubt this is all that useful because of this question:
How much gear can you hold or use in 4e insubstantial?

DemonLord57

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Re: Wraith - "Kill Me"
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2008, 07:40:46 PM »
There are no problems with carrying stuff when you're insubstantial for two reasons:
1) They don't tell you there is
2) There are already ways to become insubstantial, and they mention no such problems.

The only problem I can see is that your DM probably wouldn't let you use that creature as your character. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to, either... very few healing surges (and no second wind) and no progression of powers and such as you level wouldn't be fun (though maybe you could level like a creature does...)

awaken DM golem

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Re: Wraith - "Kill Me"
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2008, 07:08:09 PM »
1) yeah, I'm prone to agree with you, but ...
2) most have no problems listed, but the Archmage Epic insub+phasing thingy won't let you use magic items, and just around the corner from the MM glossary insub. listing, is the gaseous form listing. No items. Personally, I'd love to have insub and items.
It's just a little sketchy, historically speaking (v3.5, etc...)


Likelyhood of coming across a Wraith of some sort:
Controlling for simplicity ---> 10 encounters per level * 30 levels * 5 monster per encounter = 1500 total.
The number of monsters listed in MM is a whole bunch less (I don't have enough fingers and toes to count that high).

More fun - the DC25 knowledge check has this:
"Common wraiths can also evolve into larger, more malevolent wraiths over time."
The Sword wraith is "more" malevolent than the common Wraith. And the Dread wraith is "larger".
Argueably, the Mad Wraith is more malevolent than the common Wraith.
c Wraith can be 1st thru 10th levels.
Mad W can be 1st thru 11th levels.
Sword W can be 12th thru 22nd levels.
Dread W can be 20th thru 30th levels.
It looks to me like a progression. There's no reason to be a Sword instead of Dread, for 20th to 22nd levels.
Have to be a Mad Wraith at 11th level.

And it's ~possible this would be JUST the race of the character. The class would then be icing.

DemonLord57

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Re: Wraith - "Kill Me"
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2008, 09:53:41 PM »
1) yeah, I'm prone to agree with you, but ...
2) most have no problems listed, but the Archmage Epic insub+phasing thingy won't let you use magic items, and just around the corner from the MM glossary insub. listing, is the gaseous form listing. No items. Personally, I'd love to have insub and items.
It's just a little sketchy, historically speaking (v3.5, etc...)
Yeah, but the fact is that every insubstantial thing that makes you unable to carry items explicitly tells you so. Being insubstantial doesn't mean you're gaseous; being gaseous means you are insubstantial. Since there are multiple powers and such that would be very problematic if insubstantial meant no items, and the ones that don't let you carry items/use items explicitly spell it out leads to an implicit conclusion that you can if they don't forbid you from doing so.

More fun - the DC25 knowledge check has this:
"Common wraiths can also evolve into larger, more malevolent wraiths over time."
The Sword wraith is "more" malevolent than the common Wraith. And the Dread wraith is "larger".
Argueably, the Mad Wraith is more malevolent than the common Wraith.
c Wraith can be 1st thru 10th levels.
Mad W can be 1st thru 11th levels.
Sword W can be 12th thru 22nd levels.
Dread W can be 20th thru 30th levels.
It looks to me like a progression. There's no reason to be a Sword instead of Dread, for 20th to 22nd levels.
Have to be a Mad Wraith at 11th level.
That'd be interesting, though I think that you should also get the monster levelling to adjust your defenses/attacks as well.

And it's ~possible this would be JUST the race of the character. The class would then be icing.

That would be hilarious. However, monsters having classes means that they have a class template, meaning they're Elites = 2 characters. Not that that says anything about this, just pointing out similar situations.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Wraith - "Kill Me"
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2008, 04:52:35 PM »
Monsters have class templates because they're *not player characters*.  PCs have a class.  Period.  So when your PC becomes a wraith, he also gains/maintains (?) a class, because he's a player character.

Monsters are defined as 'not player characters'.  Being a wraith doesn't make you a monster, just like being a dragonborn or an orc doesn't make you a monster.
The ignorant shall fall to the squirrels. -Chip 4:2

DemonLord57

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Re: Wraith - "Kill Me"
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2008, 04:55:04 AM »
Monsters have class templates because they're *not player characters*.  PCs have a class.  Period.  So when your PC becomes a wraith, he also gains/maintains (?) a class, because he's a player character.

Monsters are defined as 'not player characters'.  Being a wraith doesn't make you a monster, just like being a dragonborn or an orc doesn't make you a monster.
Hmm.. I was thinking that you basically *would* be a monster. There's still nothing saying that you can play as said Wraith, and that it would be able to be a PC. Similarly, there's nothing saying that you can randomly play with Wraith as your race. There's also the disconnect from your health and other things being determined by your 'race'. If this is allowed in a game though, (highly unlikely, unfortunately) it'll be completely awesome/ridiculous. I think it'd be awesome to try a campaign where all the PCs are Wraiths.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Wraith - "Kill Me"
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2008, 07:34:08 PM »
DL57 - So, Insubstantial is better than I thought it was. I get the non-CO feather slap for the day.


SQ - Niice !!
PHB race + PHB class = PC
PHB race + NPC class = NPC
MM version of PHB race + Class Template = almost the exact same as NPC
MM version of PHB race = other MM standard monsters

so other MM standards + PHB classes = about the same as PC
and do-able.
Expanded options galore.


Finding a Wraith of any sort is not guaranteed at any one encounter,
but overall, it'll happen randomly or DMfiat-edly.
The Wraith knowledge checks indicate some Necromancer type stuff might be on the way,
also the possibility of Rituals.
Two very high level rituals find and teleport you to one. Too late in my book.


Despite the fact that (to me now) Wraiths look pretty good,
they have the obvious weakness of freaking everybody out,
and having to pull their punches near the end of every combat,
because who wants to fight another Wraith, immediately after you've beaten a Kobold ?!

Squirrelloid

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Re: Wraith - "Kill Me"
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2008, 07:37:10 PM »
I am of course assuming the wraith remains a player character after being wraithed.  The DM could just as well declare that the wraith becomes an NPC and (1) loses his class or (2) retains his class as a template.  There is literally no rule to cover this.

But as soon as we assume the player can continue playing the now-wraithed character, he keeps or gains a class, because he's a PC.  Figuring out a way to make this not crazy is too hard for me right now.
The ignorant shall fall to the squirrels. -Chip 4:2

awaken DM golem

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Re: Wraith - "Kill Me"
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2008, 07:49:46 PM »
But look, I gave the formula, every DM ought to follow it.  :blush
not crazy - no, no, no.
This is CO, we're supposed to do that.


Let's say a party is 7th level, with some randomish distribution of classes.
They find a Wraith.
The try to kill it, and mostly succeed.
But somebody dies.
No intention of doing this intentionally.
One round later, it's Monty Python skit time: "I'm not dead yet!"
Guys lets keep campaigning.

New Wraith + Old Character build = compatability issues.
Some now dead feats
Some now useless powers.
Retraining happens slowly.
Completely different party composition tactics.
Wraith - "I used to be a Killer, now I sulk."

awaken DM golem

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Re: Wraith - "Kill Me"
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2008, 06:22:52 PM »
Manual of the Planes
has a few little somethings for this.
The Shadowfell has a bog disease thingy, that turns you into a Wraith.
The level 8 Ritual transports you to the Shadowfell, cost value 680 gp, 135 gp components.

You could start a campaign on the Shadowfell, and be a Wraith from the start.
You could get a Ritual Scroll as treasure during level 3 and level 4, and use the spare gold you have for the rituals ...
assuming of your own free-will you want to come back after turning into a Wraith.
And of course, the party Wizard could get the transport Ritual at level 11, no matter what.

So, that's Wraith me:
(1) ...  at the beginning on the Shadowfell
(2) ... "find" a Wraith whenever
(3) ... during 4th level, or later
(4) ... Wizard at 11th level
Sweet.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Wraith - "Kill Me"
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2008, 05:33:21 PM »
Shadar-Kai (sp?)
can do this even better.

Get a Ritual Book of the ritual during level 7.
Reach level 8, and learn the ritual.
Perform ritual for free 1st time.
Get infected.
Perform ritual for free 2nd time, to get back home.
Intentionally fail saves, but where you want to be.
Result,
Wraith at level 8,
--- for a cost of one 7th level magic item slot ---
and a little bit of running around.