Author Topic: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger  (Read 6413 times)

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Eldariel

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15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« on: August 14, 2008, 04:13:57 PM »
Ok, so I'm building a gestalt Martial Adept/Wildshape Ranger for an arena combat (no spellcasting/manifesting allowed) with Completes, Races, SRD, ToB, Frostburn/Stormwrack/Sandstorm and MiC. The stats I managed are fairly crappy for such a character, but I figured it would pay off anyways: I'll be working off 16/16/15/14/14/13 (rolled with 5d6, drop 2 - and yes, I'm out of rerolls), which while high, isn't spectacular for anything. I was thinking the character definitely wants 8th level stances (Balancing in the Sky, possibly Stance of Alacrity or Absolute Steel Stance off a feat; against elusive flurry archers, the latter seems handy) and maneuvers, so I'll need full adept progression on one side for IL 15.

I was thinking of going Warblade, or possibly Unarmed Swordsage into Master of the Nine on one side (probably with a 2-level Bloodclaw Master-dip) and something like Wildshape Ranger 5/MoMF 7/Warshaper 3 (I was hoping to fit in a 2-level Monk dip for Flurry of Blows and the qualification feats for Master of the Nine). Since it's a Martial arena, I was also hoping to fit in Elusive Target as Power Attack is like to be big, and I expect more than one Frenzied Berserker. What levels out of MoMF 7/Warshaper 3 would be the most expendable?

So tentatively something like:
Unarmed Swordsage 8/Bloodclaw Master 3/Master of the Nine 4 // Wildshape Ranger 5/MoMF 7/Warshaper 3

Two flaws are allowed. Since we're probably talking Human here, there'll be a total of 6 feats from levels (1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15), 1 from Human, 2 from Flaws and the bonus Improved Unarmed Strike from Unarmed Swordsage (hopefully, at any rate). MoMF requires Endurance and Alertness, Master of the Nine requires IUS, Adaptive Style, Dodge, Blind-Fight and Improved Initiative. That means 6 expended feats leaving two more feats for Mobility + Elusive Target and one for Multiattack. However, this leaves me without TWF to use offhands properly for Unarmed Strikes in lieu of the Natural Attacks. Soo, some help as to how to proceed from here?

EDIT: I just realized that since it's No Casting, I'm basically forced to pick up Champion of the Wilds and gain extra feat on 4. So I could cram Two-Weapon Fighting there.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 04:18:32 PM by Eldariel »

JaronK

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2008, 07:12:18 PM »
Honestly, it's tough to improve upon that, though I'd go to MoMF 10 myself.

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Eldariel

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2008, 07:43:53 PM »
Also, if someone has good ideas for Wildshape Forms worth considering, I'm all ears. Mostly MM1, although all the other listed books are allowed too. I was considering a Cryohydra, but that feels too typical and would require a feat. Also, I'm considering going Unarmed Swordsage 9/Bloodclaw Master 2 instead, since Unarmed Swordsage 9 gets me Evasion and I'm sure I'll be facing plenty of Cryohydras.

As for MoMF 10, I'm hoping I'll find good enough abilities at 7, because Warshaper gives me immunity to the most fearsome attack legal (White Raven Hammer) along with Criticals and a ton of extra HP (+4 Con = 30). The attack bonus (combined with Bloodclaw Master) and extra Reach feel awesome too.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 08:05:48 PM by Eldariel »

anomalousman

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2008, 09:07:02 PM »
General question: can you take RHD and LA on one side of the gestalt?  Gestalt makes these options vastly more powerful than normal.

I've tried many ToB based gestalt builds, and decided that master of nine is very much suboptimal.  It's attractive, yes, (and when else can you take it if you don't take it in gestalt?) but what you miss out on is more important.  I'd recommend a two level dip into warblade for Uncanny Dodge and Wall of Blades instead.  Also, you must take a level of Lion Totem Barbarian for pounce.  Pouncing charge is no replacement for bounding assault with pounce, which is so much better in an arena I can't ever go back in my bulds.

Fist of the Forest 1.  If you're unarmoured anyway, you have to take it.  Con to AC in a wild shape build?  It boosts your unarmed damage, even.  Easy to qualify for your build.  Costs one feat.

For a MoMF, TWF is simple.  Take forms with multiple arms and take multiweapon fighting instead.  One feat instead of three, and it's outright better.  And with bloodclaw master, you'll be doing full strength to damage each attack and have no to-hit penalties. 

Finally, I'd put a vote in for stance of alacrity.  That is such a winner in arenas.  Particularly when they can reach you for an alpha strike in the first round.  Your first counter per round isn't an immediate action - so you can do it flat footed. 

AndyJames

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2008, 09:37:34 PM »
Thrikreen as your race would allow you 6 attacks a round with MWF, in theory, since monk unarmed strike states that you can use your fists or feet as well, and you have six limbs. Most monks can't do this because they don't have the requisite 3 or more arms ;)

Eldariel

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2008, 10:05:32 PM »
General question: can you take RHD and LA on one side of the gestalt?  Gestalt makes these options vastly more powerful than normal.

No; I'll have to split them along both sides. Better than normal, but still suboptimal, especially since it would automatically cost me an Initiator Level and thus prevent me from obtaining level 8 maneuvers and stances.

I've tried many ToB based gestalt builds, and decided that master of nine is very much suboptimal.  It's attractive, yes, (and when else can you take it if you don't take it in gestalt?) but what you miss out on is more important.  I'd recommend a two level dip into warblade for Uncanny Dodge and Wall of Blades instead.  Also, you must take a level of Lion Totem Barbarian for pounce.  Pouncing charge is no replacement for bounding assault with pounce, which is so much better in an arena I can't ever go back in my bulds.

I dunno - I'll have Shadow Blink anyways, so I'm not sure if Pounce will be such a problem, not to mention I'm Wildshaping, so there should be forms with Pounce available. Also, since I'll have plenty of excess Wildshape-uses, I could take that whatchacallit Wildshape-feat that gives me Pounce for a turn/Wildshape use. I prefer a feat to a level, especially when one side needs a strict progression and other one has strong class features on every level.

The reason I wanted Master of the Nine is mostly Dual Stance and Counter Stance - should make me much more able to utilize the variety of Stances I'll have as a Swordsage/MotN. Note that since it's level 15, I need straight advancement on one side to get level 8 maneuvers, and that's why I really wanted MotN too - it gives me access to all schools (Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, COVERING STRIKE (PvP melee arena - I expect more than a few AoO-builds), Devoted Spirit Auras and whatever I wanna go for - I'll need to work out exact maneuver progression for this) without giving up level 8 maneuvers or forcing me to cut to the Wildshape-side.

Fist of the Forest 1.  If you're unarmoured anyway, you have to take it.  Con to AC in a wild shape build?  It boosts your unarmed damage, even.  Easy to qualify for your build.  Costs one feat.

I really want to, actually, but I just can't seem to fit it. Do I give up Warshaper? Two levels of it seems like the least painful - MoMF 7 gives me Extraordinary Abilities of my Wildshape Forms (and Huge Wildshape), Ranger 5 is needed to even HAVE Wildshape and I need a straight Martial Adept-progression for level 8 Stances and Maneuvers. But the third level would be really awesome too, and I don't think I can give up Warshaper 1 lest I open myself up to all sorts of Stunning nonsense (and Crits accidentially ending encounters). And Warshaper 2 gives me very relevant stat buffs and Warshaper 3 increases my natural reach. Blaaaaah.

For a MoMF, TWF is simple.  Take forms with multiple arms and take multiweapon fighting instead.  One feat instead of three, and it's outright better.  And with bloodclaw master, you'll be doing full strength to damage each attack and have no to-hit penalties.

Hmm, but the wording on Multi-Weapon Fighting doesn't say I'd get iteratives with the secondary weapons, and there're no Improved versions of it in 3.5 (at least not in the books listed). Also, if I'm using my Natural Attacks as secondary with Unarmed Strike as primary, do I even need a TWF-feat? I don't think I could fight as my Unarmed Strikes both primary and Secondary in addition to Natural Attacks, and if that's so, I don't even need TWF.

Finally, I'd put a vote in for stance of alacrity.  That is such a winner in arenas.  Particularly when they can reach you for an alpha strike in the first round.  Your first counter per round isn't an immediate action - so you can do it flat footed. 

That's fairly sweet. I'll have to see if there're counters I'd need round 1. Unfortunately, I sorta need MotN to pick it up; just 1 level of Bloodclaw Master doesn't cut it and any more means Swordsage-levels don't align without additional PrCs.


Thanks for that. I've got a pretty good image of what I want now (if only I could squeeze FotF in...maybe 1 level over 3rd Warshaper? Trades Reach for Con to AC and improved Unarmed Die), and I'm fairly sure I don't actually need TWF so I've got a feat open. Contenders for now:
-Power Attack (although I fully expect everyone to have Elusive Target)
-Frozen Wildshape (if I can't come up with anything better than 12-headed Cryohydra)
-Mage Slayer->Pierce Magical Concealment (if I could magically come up with a feat somehow, I could ignore all sorts of dumb Blinks, Invisibilities and such - heck, maybe I could even go Blinking myself and profit)
-The Wildshape > Pounce feat, I suppose (although I have hard time imagining a sitiuation where Pouncing Charge/Shadow Blink wouldn't do it)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 10:10:42 PM by Eldariel »

anomalousman

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2008, 10:15:31 PM »
FoF over warshaper 3 is a no-brainer to me.  Personally, I'd be giving up the 8th level maneuver dream for all the crunch you can get to replace it. 

Thrikreen as your race would allow you 6 attacks a round with MWF, in theory, since monk unarmed strike states that you can use your fists or feet as well, and you have six limbs. Most monks can't do this because they don't have the requisite 3 or more arms ;)

They state this because you can do unarmed strikes with your arms full.  I think you'd only get the off-hand attacks for the arms, as stated by the MWF feat.  

That said:  haste+raging mongoose+MWF(thri-kreen)+bloodclaw master+warshaper = 8 attacks at full BAB, plus a claw from warshaper, 6 attacks at -5, 6 attacks at -10, and 6 attacks at -15.   That's 27 attacks, all with weapon focus from the Tiger Claw discipline focus.  Supposing that's from a pounce at the end of a Bounding Assault, all of those could have a damage bonus of +Dex (from Shadow blade) + Str (from Bloodclaw Master) + Wis (discipline focus, insightful strike (Diamond Mind)).  That's a good idea with such a MAD friendly stat array.   If you don't want to use Shadow Blade, then Leading the Charge will replace the dex to damage with warblade initiator level - which will be a few higher than level/2.  

Eldariel

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2008, 10:29:45 PM »
I'm planning on shapeshifting anyways (I'm Master of Many Forms, remember?), so I don't really feel the need to pimp out my core race especially since it would cost me 8th level maneuvers (among which is Raging Mongoose - I'm also considering White Raven Hammer to autowin against everyone without Warshaper-levels, One with Shadow to just do nasty stuff (I'm fairly sure most aren't prepared vs. Incorporeals), Fool's Strike, etc.) and the 8th level stance (seriously, I'm fairly sure there're many match-ups where I can just assume some Humanoid-form with insane stats, pick up a bow and Balance in the Sky to be totally untouchable; this isn't a caster arena, so many may not be prepared to deal with Flight - I'm still not sure if it's as good as the other options though as I've always got Wildshape forms that fly).

What I really need help with though are the forms I should be aware of. There're tons of them and I simply don't remember all the books by heart. MM1 notables would help a lot already (although I could just take Frozen Wildshape and decide to be Cryohydra with Flame's Blessing in ground combat - unarmed strikes with iteratives + 12 heads).

EDIT: You know, I just realized, if I focused on Devoted Spirit-maneuvers, I could take the wonderful Aura of Perfect Order/Immortal Fortitude-combo to...well, be immortal against almost all attacks (combined with Elusive Target). It would only require two maneuvers too. Am I crazy, or is this actually a good idea?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 10:35:34 PM by Eldariel »

anomalousman

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2008, 07:20:15 PM »
I'm also considering White Raven Hammer to autowin against everyone without Warshaper-levels

Swooping dragon strike comes earlier and does more damage providing you can get your jump check.  Max jump, the tiger claw stance if you need it, FoF fast movement and haste +30' speed should get you there.  That frees up your 8th level for one of your other choices (which all sound good).

Disrupting blow has the same effect as well, and is much cheaper again. 

As a general point, high damage actions are built out of full attacks [hence pounce is so powerful offensively, and counter charge is so important defensively].  Single action attacks like these are great for readied actions, but with Wall of Blades and Zephyr Dance and the like, they fail quite often.

Eldariel

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2008, 07:52:27 PM »
I'm also considering White Raven Hammer to autowin against everyone without Warshaper-levels

Swooping dragon strike comes earlier and does more damage providing you can get your jump check.  Max jump, the tiger claw stance if you need it, FoF fast movement and haste +30' speed should get you there.  That frees up your 8th level for one of your other choices (which all sound good).

It's the No Save Stun that I'm interested in. It deals a relevant amount of damage and lets me full attack the opponent as he's disabled. Although maybe I could pimp out my Jump-check enough to make the Save 95% to fail - thanks to Speed-modifiers, Jump-checks are easily the easiest to maximize. I'll already have 40' base as a Human thanks to Wildshape Ranger (and +10' if I take Fist of the Forest) and Jump will be near maxed anyways to enter Bloodclaw Master and Master of the Nine. Some Haste-equipment is a must anyways, so I should be able to hit 80' without using Wildshape quite easily. And as I'll have at least 12 ranks in Tumble for skilltricks and such, I'll have the synergies too.

Disrupting blow has the same effect as well, and is much cheaper again. 

As a general point, high damage actions are built out of full attacks [hence pounce is so powerful offensively, and counter charge is so important defensively].  Single action attacks like these are great for readied actions, but with Wall of Blades and Zephyr Dance and the like, they fail quite often.

Yea, it's going to be my primary plan. I'm still not sure if I should take Frozen Wildshape or not - Cryohydra would be awesome as it gets Improved Combat Reflexes as an automatic bonus, but it costs me a feat to learn the form. The last feats I've got are really the most difficult thing I've got to expend; some people may not have Elusive Target thinking nobody is taking Power Attack just BECAUSE of Elusive Target, so packing Power Attack may be a good idea again. The Charge-feat would get me Pounce enough times per day, and Great Fortitude>Power Attack would buy me Fist of the Forest-level. Superior Unarmed Strike/Improved Natural Attack would increase my base damage (which could turn out surprisingly relevant with Elusive Target+DR-builds around) and Martial Stance would buy me Balance in the Sky/Supreme Blade Parry or something like that. I could choose a non-Human race for effectively the cost of one feat, and for two something like a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold.

Any fine ideas for some races with large, tough-to-pierce DR? I could become immortal with Elusive Target + something with really high DR (save for Eternal Blades; I really want two levels of my own). I could also focus on some form of ranged attacks, since it's fully possible that I'll end up fighting some flying guys (Dragonborn, for example) with Improved Maneuvrability + AMF of some variety around them, and in that case I'd really need to be able to puncture them with bolts (especially important if they have DR - at least I can use Raging Mongoose to add to those attacks). Any ideas on good forms to fire a bow with? Something with hands, high Dex and Str-modifiers. I can't take Outsider-forms, so Arrow Demon is out of question.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 07:56:33 PM by Eldariel »

anomalousman

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2008, 02:47:54 AM »
I'm also considering White Raven Hammer to autowin against everyone without Warshaper-levels

Swooping dragon strike comes earlier and does more damage providing you can get your jump check.  Max jump, the tiger claw stance if you need it, FoF fast movement and haste +30' speed should get you there.  That frees up your 8th level for one of your other choices (which all sound good).

It's the No Save Stun that I'm interested in.

Exactly.  DC of a Jump check is 95% saveless.

The last feats I've got are really the most difficult thing I've got to expend; some people may not have Elusive Target thinking nobody is taking Power Attack just BECAUSE of Elusive Target, so packing Power Attack may be a good idea again.

Dodge and mobility are crappy feats, so the cost of elusive target is high.  Power attack is likely to be good.  Particularly when it gets you FoF.

Martial Stance would buy me Balance in the Sky/Supreme Blade Parry or something like that.
The first is wasted if you can fly anyway, and you can if you want to: you've got wild shape.  The second is not worth being in.  I always found the first level stances and Thicket of Blades are actually the best until Stance of Alacrity, and then nothing else compared.

I could choose a non-Human race for effectively the cost of one feat, and for two something like a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold.

Jermlaine?  Wild shape leaves it with +6 Wis for no LA.

Any fine ideas for some races with large, tough-to-pierce DR?

Not at zero LA.  Cheap LA high DR would be fey (Pixie, say.  Also has fabulous mental stats for wild shape fun.) or maybe lycanthrope.



Like I said, I once had a Master of Nine in an arena.  Did very well for himself.  His successors did better, and the main thing I changed was giving up on the top levels of martial adept goodness, because I have a theory that the most game-changing stuff happens around bounding assault anyway.  To help provide a baseline for your plans, I have a current, non-wildshape gestalt arena character that recently went to level 16.  It's low magic rather than no magic, so he's taken two levels of psychic warrior, but you can mentally delete his psionics (call them fighter levels) in order to fairly compare your resulting character with him.  He's using many of the same concepts as your character, but replaces all the wild shaping with actual RHD and LA:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=53824

Eldariel

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2008, 06:21:19 PM »
I'm also considering White Raven Hammer to autowin against everyone without Warshaper-levels

Swooping dragon strike comes earlier and does more damage providing you can get your jump check.  Max jump, the tiger claw stance if you need it, FoF fast movement and haste +30' speed should get you there.  That frees up your 8th level for one of your other choices (which all sound good).

It's the No Save Stun that I'm interested in.

Exactly.  DC of a Jump check is 95% saveless.

The last feats I've got are really the most difficult thing I've got to expend; some people may not have Elusive Target thinking nobody is taking Power Attack just BECAUSE of Elusive Target, so packing Power Attack may be a good idea again.

Dodge and mobility are crappy feats, so the cost of elusive target is high.  Power attack is likely to be good.  Particularly when it gets you FoF.
necessary lest I get turn 0 KO'd on lucky Initiative (it's very easy to make a build that can do a lethal charge in 200' range with 50' adjustment in position and so on). Not only that, but combining Immortal Fortitude, Counter Stance and Elusive Target means I'm nigh' immortal (too bad I can't get Steadfast Determination though - that means I'm only 95% likely to survive an arbitrary number of strikes), especially with immunity to Crits and Stunning.

Martial Stance would buy me Balance in the Sky/Supreme Blade Parry or something like that.
The first is wasted if you can fly anyway, and you can if you want to: you've got wild shape.  The second is not worth being in.  I always found the first level stances and Thicket of Blades are actually the best until Stance of Alacrity, and then nothing else compared.

The rationale behind Supreme Blade Parry would be that Immortal Fortitude+Fast Healing+DR+high Fort-saves+Elusive Target+immune to Crit and thus Precision Damage = good (I'm looking for better sources of DR, but I'm having difficulty finding DR of ~15/- out of the options I've got). The rationale behind Balance in the Sky was that I could fly regardless of the form I took, but now that I think of it, a Wild-feat would achieve the same better.

I could choose a non-Human race for effectively the cost of one feat, and for two something like a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold.

Jermlaine?  Wild shape leaves it with +6 Wis for no LA.

No MMs beyond SRD (MM1) allowed, so I unfortunately don't have the option.

Not at zero LA.  Cheap LA high DR would be fey (Pixie, say.  Also has fabulous mental stats for wild shape fun.) or maybe lycanthrope.

I was thinking of things to Wildshape into. So far, Treant is the best I've found. LA again costs me progression on both sides, so it's really out of the question. But ya, I'm just interested in making myself immortal, except if I fail with a natural 1 (and don't have the save-maneuver unexpended).

Like I said, I once had a Master of Nine in an arena.  Did very well for himself.  His successors did better, and the main thing I changed was giving up on the top levels of martial adept goodness, because I have a theory that the most game-changing stuff happens around bounding assault anyway.  To help provide a baseline for your plans, I have a current, non-wildshape gestalt arena character that recently went to level 16.  It's low magic rather than no magic, so he's taken two levels of psychic warrior, but you can mentally delete his psionics (call them fighter levels) in order to fairly compare your resulting character with him.  He's using many of the same concepts as your character, but replaces all the wild shaping with actual RHD and LA:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=53824

Bounding Assault-maneuver? It seems to me like the arena either needs to have unlimited height or be very heavy on features to truly make the ability broken. Thanks for the link. I'll look into the specifics.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 06:23:45 PM by Eldariel »

anomalousman

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2008, 09:06:14 AM »
Bounding Assault-maneuver? It seems to me like the arena either needs to have unlimited height or be very heavy on features to truly make the ability broken. Thanks for the link. I'll look into the specifics.

It removes the AC penalty from charging, and removes every other restriction charging brings.  So you can climb up something, tumble closer and full attack with bonuses.  Or tumble back out to your extreme reach after they've closed on you and full attack with bonuses.  For many arenas, combined with haste and decent starting speed, this gives you the first full attack of the game.  Often while they're still flatfooted.

You don't seem to be considering Counter Charge in your anti-ubercharger plans.  With any luck (or planning), either you're smaller and more dextrous than your opponent or you're larger and stronger.  They pull out some super shocktrooper trick, and you have a good chance to negate all their attacks (not just the power attack damage) and then you place them carefully on the fire pit, ready for your responding attack.  Can't be done flatfooted prior to Stance of Alacrity.  It's been very effective in our matches over the last year, and comes without too much extra cost.  Elusive target is good too, but considering the cost, you have to compare the resulting entire builds.

Good luck, anyway.

Eldariel

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2008, 04:55:15 PM »
I'm sure the only kinds of PAs I face won't be from Chargers - just saying "No" to it sounds like a good idea (I'd rather not risk failing the roll). Counter Charge is a maneuver I'm definitely learning though - mostly will be doing it Str-based as that's what Wildshape really facilitates. If only I could do a Template Stack like that without accruing tons of LA on both sides for Massive Damage... Btw, is Tareg actually a bear? That AC also seems fairly impressive - what exactly constitutes the Misc? It doesn't seem to be any stat.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 05:10:12 PM by Eldariel »

anomalousman

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2008, 07:35:33 PM »
I'm sure the only kinds of PAs I face won't be from Chargers - just saying "No" to it sounds like a good idea (I'd rather not risk failing the roll). Counter Charge is a maneuver I'm definitely learning though - mostly will be doing it Str-based as that's what Wildshape really facilitates. If only I could do a Template Stack like that without accruing tons of LA on both sides for Massive Damage... Btw, is Tareg actually a bear? That AC also seems fairly impressive - what exactly constitutes the Misc? It doesn't seem to be any stat.

He's an illumian Werebear.  Natural, not afflicted, because he's also a half-dragon, and to get the templates in the legal order his parent had to be a lycanthrope.  Also lolth-touched.  His misc AC comes from Con to AC from FoF, a +1 insight bonus from an ioun stone and a monk's belt (Wis+1).  He gets wis to AC anyway, but the monk's belt really helps along his unarmed damage as well as the 1 AC.

If you get RHD on one side and LA on the other, you could, as a random example, go similar to Tareg and be a half-dragon (human werebear) which would give you nearly full BAB from your animal levels, and the LA on the other side.  Or choose a kind of troll and get full BAB.  By level 8 you'd have taken 2 class levels on your RHD side, and you'd have 14 more to come.  You'd also have more or less the same stats as Tareg, and an extra feat.  You only get pain if you have to take LA on both sides rather than being able to organise RHD to pair against it.  If you need to balance the LA with the RHD in order to achieve that, all you need is two +1 LA templates that help out, or 1 +1 LA template and start as a Goliath, for example.

If you actually skip wildshape for this kind of idea, don't skip the Lolth-touched template.  +1 LA (won't cost you BAB or HD any way you organise it, because it's only +1 LA - our arena has a house rule to double that, and it's still worth taking)

Eldariel

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2008, 08:49:11 PM »
Yea, I wish I could get by with LA on one side and RHD on the other, but unfortunately the arena rules are clear: First you split LA along both sides, then Racial HD. So LA 4 would mean I'd lose 2 ECL (and HD). Therefore, LA 1 would be the best I could do, and that would mean giving up a lot.

I'm seriously reconsidering FoF on level 15 over Warshaper 3; all it would take for me to pull that off is to find good Huge Wildshape-forms other than Cryohydra for a massive number of natural attacks, another for flying, a third for massive DR (preferably a few for different types) and one more for Fast Healing. It would cost me my remaining feats.


Again, MM4 isn't on the list of allowed books, so Lolth-Touched is off-limits for me. Why exactly Illumian, btw?

anomalousman

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2008, 10:15:51 PM »
Again, MM4 isn't on the list of allowed books, so Lolth-Touched is off-limits for me. Why exactly Illumian, btw?

OK, sounds like your plan is definitely the way to go.  You're using 12 levels to try to replace the LA and RHD.  I'd heavily recommend the FoF over Warshaper 3.

Illumian wouldn't apply for you in a no magic ruleset.  The DM (foolishly in my opinion - I argued against it, but then went with the flow) ruled that the Illumian aeshkrau spellcasting also worked on psionics.  So it gives +2 manifester level and bonus power points based on strength.  Which for Tareg is effectively infinite.  It powers his expansion.

AndyJames

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2008, 10:29:34 PM »
That would only work up to your HD, which means you can only augment it up to your HD. It is not infinite by any stretch of the imagination, or am I missing something here?

Eldariel

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2008, 10:40:11 PM »
Ah, I see. Yea, I'm now trying to figure out if I could squeeze one more feat out of trading stuff. I should also be able to trade the Fast Movement I get as a bonus from Wildshape Ranger for Pounce (I'm also trying to fit Rage in here somehow; I just realized that my Strength will only be mid 40s even in shifted, pumped form, which frankly is quite poor - getting it to over 50 would help). So now, all I need is to find the best forms for each task; I'll have 8 uses of Wildshape, so I can afford to shift effectively however many times I want in combat. I kinda want the Reach since I can easily pick up Thicket of Blades, but Con to AC is just too tasty.

anomalousman

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Re: 15th Level Gestalt Martial Adept//Wildshape Ranger
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2008, 11:28:13 PM »
That would only work up to your HD, which means you can only augment it up to your HD. It is not infinite by any stretch of the imagination, or am I missing something here?

No, I only have manifester level 8 (from two Psywar levels), but what I mean is that I have an enormous pool of power points.  1 from my class levels and another hundred plus from having ML 8 and a spellcasting stat in the sixties.


As far as good shapes to wild shape into - without the monster manuals I don't have many good ideas left.  Mountain Troll would have been perfect, but it looks like you're left with a fairly short list, the best of which I think you've spotted.

Can you do swarms?  Against the right opponent, a well-chosen swarm might be an auto-win.  Locusts?