Author Topic: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?  (Read 9807 times)

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SillyRobot

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Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« on: May 17, 2008, 12:50:55 AM »
Are other RPGs acceptable here in Min/Max it?  I understand that the audience for non-D&D rules is much smaller.  I play a lot of different game systems and there are design choices in most of them.

AfterCrescent

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2008, 12:53:07 AM »
Definitely not restricted. From my gathering of these forums, it's very liberal/open-ended. I'm sure people here play many different RPGs. It's probably safer to just make sure you note in the title what system it's for if it isn't D&D.
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DetectiveJabsco

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2008, 01:40:30 AM »
though i think we should have sub-sections in the min/max

Like

4E
3.X
Classic
Other D20

pfooti

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2008, 01:44:52 AM »
What about the GURPS min/max threads? There's a classic post on the sjgames forum where a character creates pun-pun-esque power in only 53 points, I believe. A "normal" (NPC-level) character in GURPS has 75 points, so that's nothing special, and he managed to demonstrate that the person using this power would kill everything in the Whole Universe within a few minutes. I'd say maybe just "other" instead of other d20. :P And we need room for the shadowrun pornomancer or whatever that was.

tsuyoshikentsu

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2008, 04:04:08 AM »
I need Shadowrun min-maxing, seriously.
Anyway, this cake is great!  It's so delicious and moist.

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AndyJames

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2008, 04:13:17 AM »
Are other RPGs acceptable here in Min/Max it?  I understand that the audience for non-D&D rules is much smaller.  I play a lot of different game systems and there are design choices in most of them.

Actually, it is a lot easier in many other systems to break the game wide open than with DnD. A classic example is Rifts, where the Glitterboy is basically tops like 80% of the time. Another example is WoD's Mage: the Ascension, where you are only limited by your imagination, and you know how crazy some of is min/maxers' imaginations can get...

Squash Monster

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2008, 04:34:20 AM »
Breaking Mutants and Masterminds is pretty easy.  There's a power that lets you copy other powers; just buy the extras to let you copy more than one at once then start increasing the number of powers you can copy at once.  That number scales crazy-fast, so you can get your maximum number of powers over the number of powers that currently exist in the world.

Of course, that's limited to the campaign's power level.  You might have every power in the world, but they'll all be at the power you're supposed to have them.  And you have to at the very least see them before you can copy them.  So Pun-Pun can kick this guy's ass.

Actually, a thread where we try to make Pun-Pun in every system possible would be pretty fun.

EDIT: So I made it.  It's in the breaking the game forum.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 04:40:23 AM by Squash Monster »

Josh

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2008, 04:53:07 AM »
I used to make awesome* characters for the various Palladium games. 

I like to contemplate the following systems:

Savage Worlds
Burning Wheel
Spirit of the Century


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Callix

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2008, 05:01:15 AM »
No way. I personally enjoy a lttle min-maxing with the various White Wolf systems. Much of it is pretty easy, but sending something infinite is surprisingly hard. Some of the tricks are pretty obvious. In Mage: The Awakening, a starting character is capable of setting up a buff spell that means he doesn't need to eat, drink, or breathe for a month. Broken combos are simple, but practical, good combos that will survive exposure to a GM are harder and more fun. One example: with Forces 3, Control Fire lets you hit an opponent for lethal damage based on your successes by turning a cigarette lighter into a blowtorch. This is significantly aboe the power curve for a starting character (approximately twice as good as anyone else's attack spells), but is restricted by only working in melee range and not giving you all that many other options.
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JanusJones

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2008, 01:22:02 PM »
If there are rules, there is optimization!

But some systems DO make it easier on you.  d20, by being so incredibly rules-oriented and releasing, in every new book, unconnected and badly un-tested (by anyone knowledgeable about rules in OTHER books) mechanics, invited abuse beyond what many other systems could.

In other words, though optimization can happen in ANY system, it's probably only complex and entertaining enough to spawn entire forums in d20!

Well, maybe not ONLY.  But close to!  d20 has invited optimization on the level at which MMORPGs like Diablo II and others have - in effect, a massive, microscopic inspection of how the rules work which allows people to find loopholes to exploit.  Better yet, rather than having hard-wired rules with predetermined outcomes (as in a computer game), it's based on interpretation of language and implementation by individuals (gamers), leading to all sorts of fun linguistic loopholes and semantic games that can be played to break things even further.

Which is why CO has become such an interesting entity in d20, and, I'd argue, should be as fundamental to its brand and product image as the 20-sided die itself!

Hmm.  This little rant may warrant a post on the WotC boards.  Things seem to be stirring in the pot over there, and this spice might add something to the mix.

Thoughts?

Tazendra

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2008, 02:30:31 PM »
Any game has optimization potential, but d20 is particularly suited to it because there is such a large number of rulebooks and continual new releases. Most games just don't have as much content, which makes optimization less interesting, because there are less permutations.  Its one the things I find most interesting about the game, there are so many different ways to build the same character archetype.


Prime32

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2008, 02:31:59 PM »
Hmm.  This little rant may warrant a post on the WotC boards.  Things seem to be stirring in the pot over there, and this spice might add something to the mix.

Thoughts?
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ronyon

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2008, 03:08:18 PM »
I really started min/maxing with Hero System,back when it was called Champions and came in a box.
Hero system had three things that made optimizing inevitable:
1.Point buy for everything.
2.Totally customizable powers-and stats !
3.A strong emphasis on balance.


 The first two made Min/Max natural, the last one made it fun.There is no point in optimizing in some systems(Palladium!) since there has been no evident effort to balance the thing in the first place.

 Before I was done with Hero System, I was building characters with ENDurance Batteries that cost ENDurance, which made for a lot of free  power in a system where everything cost Endurance.

I actually dont miss the complexity of Hero,or Gurps for that matter.D20 gave me complex choices, without forcing them on everyone.
 The lack of these complex choices is why I am unlikely to get into 4th Edition.Even if they some how make the game streamlined and simple as they promise,and yet retain the option of making complex choices in character creation that have  significant impact on game play, they simply cannot match the sheer number of choices that stem from the huge volume of 3.X material in print.


Tazendra

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2008, 03:18:26 PM »
Champions is a cool game, and exceedingly flexible. I've played a couple of Champions PBPs, nothing says collateral damage like a Champions Brick.

olothfaern

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2008, 03:34:16 PM »
I need Shadowrun min-maxing, seriously.

During character creation in 4e, for Magicians or Physical MagesMystic Adepts, power foci are silly good for the BP cost.

I've played since SR2; primarily hermetic spellcasters but a few street sams and a few adepts, when I get my hands on Arsenal, I may try to update my bat-tac drone rigger.
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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2008, 03:35:16 PM »
I would love to get a crack at optimizing for GURPS or the Hero system.  Or pretty much anything that isn't D&D.  The closest I've come to a non-D&D game in quite some time was a GURPS one-off.

Cyrocloud

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2008, 03:41:01 PM »
I know I could use some help in min/maxing the scion games...and finding a group willing to play...damn friends who won't do anything but DnD...  :mad

Tazendra

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2008, 04:42:10 PM »
I keep trying to get enthusiastic about Shadowrun 4E, but so far no luck. Still hasn't stopped me from buying the source books though

tsuyoshikentsu

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2008, 05:44:52 PM »
Dude, I freaking love 4E.  Lots of fun builds -- Negotiation can be gotten almost as high as Seduction, if you want -- and lots more fun weapons. Arsenal just added a lot of recoil-compensation stuff along with official stacking rules.  So now we have rules to say "this STACKS according to the rules!"

Let's take our good friend, the old Ultimax HMG-2.  Comes with a gas-vent 3 system... and a tripod, but tripods are for sissies.  Now, let's add a foregrip and a shock pad to that puppy, to put us at 5 RC.  Next comes the internal mods, using Arsenal's customization rules: a personalized grip and a heavy barrel.  Seven RC so far!  Only two more to go!

Why, hello there, Augmentation!  What's that you have there?  Chrome in your foot that provides 1 RC PER FOOT?  And it appears to stack with everything else?  I'll take two!

And there you have it.  Completely compensated recoil for a full-auto burst.

Now, notice how I left three customization slots open?  I did that because, for three customization slots, you can make your machine gun high-velocity.  This meas that instead of +9/-9/9R FA modifiers, you can have +11/-11/11R FA modifiers.  (Twelve bullets per action phase, too.)  Unfortunately, you're stuck with -2 recoil that you can't compensate for, and that gets doubled.  So if you can deal with 4R (or do that thing I've heard about but never been able to find where STR can provide RC) you can have a weapon that's effectively either 18P/-3 or 7P/-14.
Anyway, this cake is great!  It's so delicious and moist.

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Tazendra

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Re: Is Min/Max restricted to D&D?
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2008, 06:41:28 PM »
I just can't seem to get past the wholesale game mechanics changes. I know that 3E is a bit odd, but I played it, and 2E before it, for so long that anything so different just doesn't seem right to me. Maybe I should get into a Shadowrun PBP or something. Maybe that will get me over the hump.