1,067,212 attacks in a single action

[zook1shoe]

It's still a template that has had all the requirements met, and doesn't require you to be a certain level.

So does the template being an "acquired" template negate my build? If so, why?

[CrimsonDeath]

On second thought, I'm not completely sure.  Kind of piggybacking on someone else's statement-- EjoThims said the proposed template stacking order wouldn't work unless Mob was inherited (and nobody argued with him) but didn't specify which one broke it (or how), and I'm not entirely clear on the stacking order anyway (or the wording of Half-Illithid, Half-Dragonflesh-Golem, or Petitioner, or where to find them-- I can tell you that Half-Illithid isn't in LoM).  But nobody else seemed clear on the wording of "Mob", and that's mostly what I was clarifying.  Mobs also "don't make attacks" and instead either trample or do damage in a manner similar to swarms, and I'm not sure what you're adding that lets all those tentacles make attacks again.  But whatever it is, Half-Farspawn adds two more tentacles.

[Bauglir]

Hmm... I thought it was agreed that since an acquired template can be added "any time", it could be added before other steps in creature creation, in flagrant violation of common sense? Otherwise you can't do White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobolds and get all the goodies because you lose the Dragon type.

[Prime32]

Hmm... I thought it was agreed that since an acquired template can be added "any time", it could be added before other steps in creature creation, in flagrant violation of common sense? Otherwise you can't do White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobolds and get all the goodies because you lose the Dragon type.

That works because you choose race before feats.

[zook1shoe]

On second thought, I'm not completely sure.  Kind of piggybacking on someone else's statement-- EjoThims said the proposed template stacking order wouldn't work unless Mob was inherited (and nobody argued with him) but didn't specify which one broke it (or how), and I'm not entirely clear on the stacking order anyway (or the wording of Half-Illithid, Half-Dragonflesh-Golem, or Petitioner, or where to find them-- I can tell you that Half-Illithid isn't in LoM).  But nobody else seemed clear on the wording of "Mob", and that's mostly what I was clarifying.  Mobs also "don't make attacks" and instead either trample or do damage in a manner similar to swarms, and I'm not sure what you're adding that lets all those tentacles make attacks again.  But whatever it is, Half-Farspawn adds two more tentacles.

Half-Illithid is in Underdark and Fiend Folio; Half-Dragonflesh Golem is in the "More Half-golems" MM2 web enhancement; Petitioner is in Manual of the Planes.

How you get the attacks back? Petitioner gets rid of SAs and SQs, then then Half-illithid and Half-Dragonflesh Golem give them attacks based on their physical anatomy, heads and arms, which gives it the ability to make natural attacks now.

[Bauglir]

Hmm... I thought it was agreed that since an acquired template can be added "any time", it could be added before other steps in creature creation, in flagrant violation of common sense? Otherwise you can't do White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobolds and get all the goodies because you lose the Dragon type.

That works because you choose race before feats.

Yeah, but it's still the same principle (that you don't need a complete creature to add an acquired template to). I can't recall any rule explicitly stating that acquired templates must be added after inherited templates, so the same interpretation of "Some templates can be added to creatures anytime." supports this to the same extent. Incidentally, I'm now arguing against this interpretation, since having looked at the rules again, the relevant paragraph on page 291 states, "Templates such as these are referred to as acquired templates, indicating that the creature did not always have the attributes of the template."

At no time does a dragonwrought kobold not have feats, so the feat must necessarily be taken (otherwise a time can't have existed when the creature did not have the attributes of the template).

[EjoThims]

Hmm... I thought it was agreed that since an acquired template can be added "any time", it could be added before other steps in creature creation, in flagrant violation of common sense? Otherwise you can't do White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobolds and get all the goodies because you lose the Dragon type.

That works because you choose race before feats.

At no time does a dragonwrought kobold not have feats

Right and wrong. In game, you are totally correct.

However, the rules are metagame concepts, and out of game, you are wrong. By the rules, a kobold, can acquire a template, even an acquired one before choosing class levels (and thusly feats), as template is part of race and race is chosen first.

Now, I would not actually allow such, especially when fluff wise the template in question must actually be applied through a process that would certainly be happening after character creation, but RaW it is entirely permissible for Theoretical builds or for those who understand that fluff is entirely mutable.

As for the mob template stacking, it doesn't work because you can't make an anthropomorphic mob or a tauric mob or a chimaeric mob, since those are all inherited templates which must be applied before acquired.

[EjoThims]

Okay, rest of the reasons why Mob does not work.

Firstly, it would require that the attacks are lost only on template application, not overall as an ability.

Petinent takes care of that, and that concern was my oversight. Very clever actually.

Secondly it would require that the template causes the mob to be treated as a single creature for all mechanical purposes, not a limited list.

This one is a bit tricky, but four parts of the mob template make mobs really seem not targetable by templates.

A mob is treated as a single entity similar to a swarm, except that it is made of larger creatures.

Generally, mobs are transitory; after forming, a mob lasts for, at most, 1d4+1 hours before breaking up. Most mobs break up naturally far sooner, once the condition that caused their formation is no longer a factor.

Unlike standard swarms, mobs are made up of relatively small numbers of individual creatures, so spells or effects that target specific numbers of creatures can have an effect on a mob Each specific creature that is slain, disabled, or otherwise incapacitated by spells or effects that target specific creatures...

Although mobs are treated as one creature, it sometimes becomes necessary to determine the fate of a specific individual caught up in the mob.

Emphasis mine, of course.

First, mobs are similar to swarms, not identical. They do not gain the swarm type or use the swarm rules. They only act as a swarm as noted in the template. Second, they tend not to last long; while there is no hard cap it's clearly noted that they exist for a sole purpose. Third, individuals within a mob still exist and spells and affects which target one creature or a set number of creatures are still effective and still affect only those individual creature.

So, I do not believe that mobs as a whole can be templated (since an individual creature is targetted within the mob), and even if they can, they certainly would not qualify for combination templates like tauric because they are clearly still composed of multiple creatures, despite counting as one for very specific purposes.

So already this, at worst, makes the whole thing a no go. At most conservative, eliminates anthropomorphic, tauric, and most painfully symbiotic, killing the low ECL trick of the build. But moving on, in case.

Thirdly it would require the mob to not ever be able to gain more HD, as the multi-headed template adds HD per head.

Mobs only ever have 30 HD, so I called this one, as incredibly edibly stupid as it is. And with the symbiotic rules, you don't gain those yourselves. This is why for my build I intentionally ignored symbiotes as well as cloning. It requires multiple characters in the attack routine and thusly, by definition, cannot be done in a single action.

Fourth it requires being able to create a mob of mobs.

As a mob is, by default, Gargantuan, it cannot be composed of another mob, since only Large and Small creatures are applicable targets.

This, by the way, certainly kills Tauric due to the relative size requirements, and IIRC anthropomorphic as well.

[zook1shoe]

Okay, rest of the reasons why Mob does not work.

Firstly, it would require that the attacks are lost only on template application, not overall as an ability.

Petinent takes care of that, and that concern was my oversight. Very clever actually.

Thanks

-------------------

Secondly it would require that the template causes the mob to be treated as a single creature for all mechanical purposes, not a limited list.

This one is a bit tricky, but four parts of the mob template make mobs really seem not targetable by templates.

Emphasis mine, of course.

First, mobs are similar to swarms, not identical. They do not gain the swarm type or use the swarm rules. They only act as a swarm as noted in the template. Second, they tend not to last long; while there is no hard cap it's clearly noted that they exist for a sole purpose. Third, individuals within a mob still exist and spells and affects which target one creature or a set number of creatures are still effective and still affect only those individual creature.

So, I do not believe that mobs as a whole can be templated (since an individual creature is targetted within the mob), and even if they can, they certainly would not qualify for combination templates like tauric because they are clearly still composed of multiple creatures, despite counting as one for very specific purposes.

So already this, at worst, makes the whole thing a no go. At most conservative, eliminates anthropomorphic, tauric, and most painfully symbiotic, killing the low ECL trick of the build. But moving on, in case.

but there are lots of templates that have similar "purposes" like the Aleax or Shadow Simulacrum; but otherwise i agree to nearly all of that (except the anthropomorphic and symbiotic part)

symbiotic was the key to creating a creature that has an LA of n/a to a ~+1

-------------------

Thirdly it would require the mob to not ever be able to gain more HD, as the multi-headed template adds HD per head.

Mobs only ever have 30 HD, so I called this one, as incredibly edibly stupid as it is. And with the symbiotic rules, you don't gain those yourselves. This is why for my build I intentionally ignored symbiotes as well as cloning. It requires multiple characters in the attack routine and thusly, by definition, cannot be done in a single action.

i didn't care about the HD, as long as it fell within a template's restrictions. i was caring more about the number of body parts overall

-------------------

Fourth it requires being able to create a mob of mobs.

As a mob is, by default, Gargantuan, it cannot be composed of another mob, since only Large and Small creatures are applicable targets.

This, by the way, certainly kills Tauric due to the relative size requirements, and IIRC anthropomorphic as well.

yes it is by default Gargantuan, but the Anthropomorphic template takes animals that range from Fine to Colossal and allows them to be Small, Medium, or Large as per the size changes in that template, therefore a Gargantuan mob of animals becomes a Large Monstrous Humanoid, i would NEVER be able to describe the process, but you have to admit that part works.

and i realized, now, that the anthro-mob of squid would be Large, not Medium. so that makes the torso of the Tauric template not work.

if there was template like Dungeonbred that could decrease a monstrous humanoid's size by one or more, then it would be potentially viable, based on the interpretation of the Mob template stuff

-------------------

so overall the build is bad... but it brings up some important options to the field, like using freak petitioners to the table, say a symbiotic dragonwrought kobold/paragon petitioner half-48 dragon tauric paragon two-headed anthropomorphic squid/paragon centipedes

[EjoThims]

but it brings up some important options to the field, like using freak petitioners to the table, say a symbiotic dragonwrought kobold/paragon petitioner half-48 dragon tauric paragon two-headed anthropomorphic squid/paragon centipedes

That it does, but reread my note on the symbiote. The one that's underlined and bolded and two font sizes larger... 

This particular TO exercise, and the world record that accompanies it, is about number of attacks with a single action. Symbiotes are part of the creature, but act as a separate entity, necessitating the taking of at least one other action.

This makes them useless for this particular purpose.

Fusion was ignored for the same reason Pun-Pun and other infinite loops were. Even if you're choosing to end them arbitrarily, they're no-go for records because someone else can just choose to end at N+1.

[zook1shoe]

i see... it makes sense

[Bauglir]

Hmm... I thought it was agreed that since an acquired template can be added "any time", it could be added before other steps in creature creation, in flagrant violation of common sense? Otherwise you can't do White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobolds and get all the goodies because you lose the Dragon type.

That works because you choose race before feats.

At no time does a dragonwrought kobold not have feats

Right and wrong. In game, you are totally correct.

However, the rules are metagame concepts, and out of game, you are wrong. By the rules, a kobold, can acquire a template, even an acquired one before choosing class levels (and thusly feats), as template is part of race and race is chosen first.

Actually, I'm going to have to dispute this. It says "At one time, the creature did not possess the attributes of this template." Explain to me how this statement could be true if you can choose to apply an acquired template before the creature has feats. I'm saying there's an apparent contradiction in the rules (resolved by the ability to apply an acquired template at "any time", which allows you to do it after you normally select race, and it's the combination of these two statements that results in a functional rule). This is a specific case of template mechanics overriding the usual rules for races.

EDIT: At any rate, if we're discarding common sense, why do you have to apply inherited templates before acquired ones? The rules don't say that, and "always part of a creature's existence" is precisely as limiting as "At one time..."

Your other objections to templating mobs are PURELY common sense (They don't last long, are composed of multiple individual creatures, etc). Yes, these are logical reasons for not being able to template one, but the rules don't say you can't template a creature whose fluff indicates that it is transient or made of component creatures (like, for instance, most swarms).

FURTHER EDIT: But they do say you can template creatures, which a mob is considered. Just to distance this post from a purely "But it doesn't say I can't X!" argument.

[EjoThims]

Explain to me how this statement could be true if you can choose to apply an acquired template before the creature has feats.

I have a creature I am making. It has a race. As part of that race, I will give it an acquired template. Then I will give it levels, including feats.

Templates are a metagame concept, they are applied in metagame sequence of events, and this does not match up with in game time. Just as you must get class levels before feats, you must get race before feats as well. And race can include templates, acquired as well.

There is no contradiction here other than that you continue to assume that the logical conclusion of the story is dictating the rules.

why do you have to apply inherited templates before acquired ones? The rules don't say that, and "always part of a creature's existence" is precisely as limiting as "At one time..."

Except that always means it has to come first. Inherited have to come before acquired, because if there is a time you build the creature in which it does not have them, they cannot apply. It is a Kobold. Then it is a Half-Dragon kobold. Then it is a Skeletal Half-Dragon Kobold. It cannot be a Skeletal Kobold and then a Half-Dragon Skeletal Kobold, because that would create a time in the sequence of it's creature that it was not a Half-Dragon.

Your other objections to templating mobs are PURELY common sense (They don't last long, are composed of multiple individual creatures, etc).

The two smallest and weakest, which nothing else actually relies on to be support; the two that you could entirely take out of my last post and not change any of the conclusions but that were included for completeness are, yes.

The rest of the post is doesn't even have to do with the fluff restrictions of mob rules, but rather the much realer rule restrictions. Such as not actually having the swarm type and still counting as individual creatures. I suggest you finish reading my post and then respond.

[Bauglir]

Explain to me how this statement could be true if you can choose to apply an acquired template before the creature has feats.

I have a creature I am making. It has a race. As part of that race, I will give it an acquired template. Then I will give it levels, including feats.

Templates are a metagame concept, they are applied in metagame sequence of events, and this does not match up with in game time. Just as you must get class levels before feats, you must get race before feats as well. And race can include templates, acquired as well.

There is no contradiction here other than that you continue to assume that the logical conclusion of the story is dictating the rules.

The contradiction is in saying the following:

why do you have to apply inherited templates before acquired ones? The rules don't say that, and "always part of a creature's existence" is precisely as limiting as "At one time..."

Except that always means it has to come first. Inherited have to come before acquired, because if there is a time you build the creature in which it does not have them, they cannot apply. It is a Kobold. Then it is a Half-Dragon kobold. Then it is a Skeletal Half-Dragon Kobold. It cannot be a Skeletal Kobold and then a Half-Dragon Skeletal Kobold, because that would create a time in the sequence of it's creature that it was not a Half-Dragon.

Allow me to demonstrate.

I have a creature I am making. It has a race. As part of that race, I will give it an acquired template. Then I will give it an inherited template, since I'm still working on its race.

Templates are a metagame concept, they are applied in metagame sequence of events, and this does not match up with in game time. Just as you can take levels in one class before another, you can apply one template before another.

There is no contradiction here other than that you continue to assume that the logical conclusion of the story is dictating the rules.

Your other objections to templating mobs are PURELY common sense (They don't last long, are composed of multiple individual creatures, etc).

The two smallest and weakest, which nothing else actually relies on to be support; the two that you could entirely take out of my last post and not change any of the conclusions but that were included for completeness are, yes.

The rest of the post is doesn't even have to do with the fluff restrictions of mob rules, but rather the much realer rule restrictions. Such as not actually having the swarm type and still counting as individual creatures. I suggest you finish reading my post and then respond.

Being unlike a swarm is irrelevant. Swarms have no rules specifically allowing them to be templated. It's the failure to print a rule saying they cannot that allows templating them, because a general rule states that creatures can be templated. Further, the rules describing the fates of individual creatures are specific exceptions to a mob's existence as a specific creature, otherwise they wouldn't be printed. There's no such exception for templates. So neither of those help, either. Apologies for not addressing them.

[zook1shoe]

Thanks for the support

What about a creature that has never been made and does not yet exist, must have a history?

[EjoThims]

Allow me to demonstrate.

I have a creature I am making. It has a race. As part of that race, I will give it an acquired template.

And now it is no longer a valid target of an inherited template. The creature exists right now. At this moment in rules, it exists. It is a stat block that is in existence.

It is now no longer a valid target for an inherited template because said template would not have always been a part of said creature.

The only reason you seem to think there is a contradiction is because you are under the false notion that to exist the creature must exist in some kind of story or plot.

Just as you can take levels in one class before another, you can apply one template before another.

Indeed, this is true. But you can't take certain classes unless you meet certain requirements. The same is true of templates.

Being unlike a swarm is irrelevant....

Further, the rules describing the fates of individual creatures are specific exceptions to a mob's existence as a specific creature, otherwise they wouldn't be printed.

Being unlike a swarm is relevant in that because they are not a swarm, they only function as one creature when specifically called out as such, since acting together as one creature is not an aspect in any other way ascribed to the mob. And the template lists all those times in which it is treated as one creature. Templates are not one of them, nor are class levels. Noting that they are still individual creatures where it is important is the wise thing to do, but when it is otherwise still noted how and when a mob does act as one creature, it cannot be assumed to be the exception. The exceptions to the rules are the times the mob does act as a single creature. These times must be called out, as they are exceptions to the general. There is no call out for templates.

[Bauglir]

Allow me to demonstrate.

I have a creature I am making. It has a race. As part of that race, I will give it an acquired template.

And now it is no longer a valid target of an inherited template. The creature exists right now. At this moment in rules, it exists. It is a stat block that is in existence.

It is now no longer a valid target for an inherited template because said template would not have always been a part of said creature.

The only reason you seem to think there is a contradiction is because you are under the false notion that to exist the creature must exist in some kind of story or plot.

Why does it exist when you're still working on its race when it doesn't have to exist as a creature when you're working on its feats, which (as you say) come afterward?

Just as you can take levels in one class before another, you can apply one template before another.

Indeed, this is true. But you can't take certain classes unless you meet certain requirements. The same is true of templates.

And where is it said that a requirement for taking an inherited template is that you not have an acquired template?

Being unlike a swarm is irrelevant....

Further, the rules describing the fates of individual creatures are specific exceptions to a mob's existence as a specific creature, otherwise they wouldn't be printed.

Being unlike a swarm is relevant in that because they are not a swarm, they only function as one creature when specifically called out as such, since acting together as one creature is not an aspect in any other way ascribed to the mob. And the template lists all those times in which it is treated as one creature. Templates are not one of them, nor are class levels. Noting that they are still individual creatures where it is important is the wise thing to do, but when it is otherwise still noted how and when a mob does act as one creature, it cannot be assumed to be the exception. The exceptions to the rules are the times the mob does act as a single creature. These times must be called out, as they are exceptions to the general. There is no call out for templates.

I'm sorry, but that's not how the rules for mobs are written. It uses all the base creature's statistics, except as noted. There's no note saying it can't have templates applied. All ways in which it is treated as individual creatures are specifically noted; it has its own AC, hit points, saves, and so on. There's nothing to support your statement that it is, by default, treated as multiple creatures. Furthermore, there IS a specific quote that says a mob is treated as a single creature, which means everything contrary to that is an exception. Note

Although mobs are treated as one creature...

Although means that "treated as one creature" is the general case, because you're setting up all their non-single creature attributes as exceptions to that.

[zook1shoe]

And now it is no longer a valid target of an inherited template. The creature exists right now. At this moment in rules, it exists. It is a stat block that is in existence.

It is now no longer a valid target for an inherited template because said template would not have always been a part of said creature.

but what about getting an inherited template after a creature is already created?

isn't the Half-Fiend an inherited template? the Half-Dragon template?

what about an afflicted lycanthrope becoming a natural lycanthrope?

The only reason you seem to think there is a contradiction is because you are under the false notion that to exist the creature must exist in some kind of story or plot.

like my previous post, where does it say in any book that a creature MUST have a past?

like Bauglir said, if we are still coming up with the creature then there is no past or existence in anyone's plot yet.

this is because we are making the creature, then reverse engineer a plot hook/past when needed. not creating the plot hook/past, then making the creature.

[Bauglir]

I did make one odd statement above. Instead of asking why it doesn't have to be a creature when you're working on its feats, I should actually ask why it DOES have to be one while you're doing its race. If "Now it's a Skeleton Kobold so you can't apply Half-Dragon" is a valid objection because now it's an actual creature, then "Now it's a Kobold so you can't apply Half-Dragon" should be, too. Which is obviously ridiculous.

[EjoThims]

Why does it exist when you're still working on its race when it doesn't have to exist as a creature when you're working on its feats, which (as you say) come afterward?

It exists in rules, as a viable complete statblock through each. In plot, it does not exist until inserted. The two are entirely separate.

And where is it said that a requirement for taking an inherited template is that you not have an acquired template?

The requirement is "always part of a creature's existence." If that is not met, it cannot be applied.

"Now it's a Skeleton Kobold so you can't apply Half-Dragon" is a valid objection because now it's an actual creature, then "Now it's a Kobold so you can't apply Half-Dragon" should be, too. Which is obviously ridiculous.

Honestly, I am beginning to think you are being intentionally dense. You may as well be arguing that the type pyramid does not apply, or that there is no order of operations involved in creating characters at all.

When creating characters or monsters, in the time you are defining race, you have certain options. One of those is to add inherited and acquired templates. The wording of the two not only implies a logical need for the one to be first, but also states that the creature being made cannot exist for any amount of time without it's inherited templates. This is, honestly, a bit ambiguous, but fortunately there is a perfectly logical conclusion that clarifies it without changing meaning in the least.

Or you could create a contradiction in which the creature has potential to exist without the inherited template while still later being a creature with inherited templates.

This is not a problem for base races, as they exist without templates at all. But once you start adding templates, there is a time where it has templates applied but does not have it's inherited templates, which is explicitly disallowed.

Any exceptions, such as savage progression levels or classes that grant templates, are all explicit exceptions and thusly trump the general.

Although mobs are treated as one creature...

Although means that "treated as one creature" is the general case, because you're setting up all their non-single creature attributes as exceptions to that.

Again, there is nothing that defines mobs as a single creature. Simply that, "similar to a swarm" they are treated as one. This is why I continue to point out the difference between a mob and a swarm. Swarms are explicitly defined as a single creature. In fact, "a swarm is defined as a single creature" is a direct quote.

No such quote exists for a mob. It is multiple creatures acting as one for very specific purposes. This means that, by default, it is still multiple creatures except as specifically noted in the template.

The fact that they clarify how this interacts in one specific regard does not mean everything else defaults to "a mob is one single creature."

Because those are not the mob rules.

Mobs are never defined as a singular entity. It is merely "treated" as such for the things the template lists.





But as I said earlier, none of this really matters to the build at hand. But if you would like to continue these asides, I would be happy to respond in another thread if you PMed me a link.