Author Topic: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action  (Read 143962 times)

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #280 on: February 28, 2009, 01:01:52 PM »
Step 3: You make a free trip attempt (at a +4 bonus, with no possibility of being tripped in return).
Step 4: You succeed at the trip.

And that's where it breaks down. You can't trip a prone target, meaning you can't make the attempt, and even if you could, you could not be successful at it.

What? Improved Trip merely gives you a bonus to the Strength check when tripping, prevents retaliatory tripping, and allows you to make an additional attack after you successfully trip an opponent. Since Knock-Down grants you a free trip attempt when you deal 10+ points of damage, how does that invalidate the free attack after you trip someone using Knock-Down?

Basically, Knock-Down allows you a free trip attempt. Improved Trip allows you to attack after you trip.

Nobody said anything about tripping a prone creature (though I don't think it's actually mentioned anywhere in the rules, either).

[edit] I guess you'd have to be able to double all of your attacks, meaning that you'd have to be able to trip a prone creature. So I guess that makes sense; sorry, I'm kind of tired at the moment.

Solution: Improved Grab would mean that you could make additional Knock-Down attempts after someone is knocked prone, however, since you can actually pick them up.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2009, 01:07:26 PM by Lycanthromancer »
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AfterCrescent

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #281 on: February 28, 2009, 08:16:41 PM »
Not in the same round... Grappling doesn't allow you to actually pick someone up if they're prone when you initiate the grapple.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #282 on: February 28, 2009, 08:42:05 PM »
That's what improved grab is for. You can pick them up and carry them around with you if you succeed on the grapple check. That's kind of what it's for.

Now, we just need a source for improved grab that uses the weapons in the build...
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woodenbandman

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #283 on: February 28, 2009, 09:58:25 PM »
Would the warblade's ability of whatever the hell it is allow you to initiate a grapple with a crescent knife? it does say "unarmed touch attack" to start the grapple... maybe if there were a whip feat or something that allowed you to initiate a grapple after hitting with it.

AfterCrescent

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #284 on: February 28, 2009, 11:43:22 PM »
That's what improved grab is for. You can pick them up and carry them around with you if you succeed on the grapple check. That's kind of what it's for.

Now, we just need a source for improved grab that uses the weapons in the build...
Right, so you grapple them and then use a standard action to move them? Sounds like the opposite of getting MORE attacks. :P
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #285 on: March 01, 2009, 09:04:13 PM »
That's what improved grab is for. You can pick them up and carry them around with you if you succeed on the grapple check. That's kind of what it's for.

Now, we just need a source for improved grab that uses the weapons in the build...
Right, so you grapple them and then use a standard action to move them? Sounds like the opposite of getting MORE attacks. :P
Um...no?

You move them into your space as a free action. Nobody said they have to stay on the ground when you do.
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EjoThims

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #286 on: March 01, 2009, 10:43:06 PM »
You move them into your space as a free action. Nobody said they have to stay on the ground when you do.

Nor are there any rules to support that you have the option of causing them to stand from prone, nor that it's even possible to force an opponent to stand from prone.

AfterCrescent

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #287 on: March 02, 2009, 04:10:13 PM »
Um...no?

You move them into your space as a free action. Nobody said they have to stay on the ground when you do.
I know you're trying to help, but please read the grapple rules again.

To maintain a grapple, YOU must move into the space of the TARGET, not the other way around.  That's under Step 4: Maintain Grapple.

Now go to the next column in the PHB and read how you may use a STANDARD action to move and drag all grapplers with you.

Grappling will, in no way, increase the number of attacks in a given round.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #288 on: March 03, 2009, 02:19:39 AM »
And you might want to reread the rules of Improved Grab.

Quote from: SRD
Improved Grab

If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.

Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself;
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
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AfterCrescent

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #289 on: March 03, 2009, 02:34:25 AM »
Fair enough.

However, that doesn't actually help the build, since all you can do with improved grab is pull them into your space and possibly carry them. Nothing allows you to knock them down, hit them, grab them, pick them up and rinse/repeat...
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Prime32

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #290 on: March 03, 2009, 11:07:16 AM »
However, that doesn't actually help the build, since all you can do with improved grab is pull them into your space and possibly carry them. Nothing allows you to knock them down, hit them, grab them, pick them up and rinse/repeat...
Sounds like bloodstorm blade...
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #291 on: March 03, 2009, 12:46:28 PM »
If you pick them up, they're no longer prone, and you can attack them again, since you can both attack in a grapple then release as you trip them, or attack because you aren't considered grappled yourself.

And even without that, once again, nothing says a prone creature can't be tripped, RAW. :)
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
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EjoThims

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #292 on: March 03, 2009, 07:59:27 PM »
If you pick them up, they're no longer prone

There's no support for that in the rules. It doesn't even logically follow from the rules that are present, as since the rules actually say it takes a move action to stand up from prone, without some other rule input, it logically follows that it is impossible to physically force an opponent to stand from prone, as it can only be done by them using up an action.

And even without that, once again, nothing says a prone creature can't be tripped, RAW. :)

The FAQ clarified that, when talking about re-tripping with AoOs provoked by standing from prone iirc. Plus, they can only be prone once, but the result of a successful trip is making them prone (or making them fall if airborne). If you can't make them prone (or fall), the trip is not successful, and Improved Trip won't trigger.

So, even if you could trip a prone target, by RaW, it doesn't matter, you still wouldn't generate extra attacks beyond the first, even if you could get improved grab on ranged attacks with a crescent knife.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #293 on: March 05, 2009, 03:05:07 AM »
Has anyone considered 10 levels in dervish? That'd double the number of attacks you could make in a full-round action 1/day.

Even if you don't want to use Knock-Down.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 03:10:30 AM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
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AfterCrescent

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #294 on: March 05, 2009, 06:19:29 AM »
You mean Thousand Cuts? That ability we got by eating a dervish as an illithid savant? ;)
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #295 on: March 05, 2009, 01:15:06 PM »
I checked the first page, and didn't see anything regarding a dervish.

Um...Great Cleave?
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
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Bauglir

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #296 on: March 05, 2009, 03:49:38 PM »
Nah, Great Cleave relies on having enemies around. And dropping them. It's really only useful in situations where you don't need it, unfortunately, and the attacks aren't guaranteed.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #297 on: March 05, 2009, 06:41:12 PM »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

EjoThims

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #298 on: March 06, 2009, 12:23:20 PM »
You really don't think you could drop any given 50000+ critters with over a million attacks?  :twitch

Just three words: Bag o Rats.

You'd be able to Cleave all you want.

As would anyone who has the reach to hit that many targets, so it's neither new nor helpful for our goals.  ;)

Lycanthromancer

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Re: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action
« Reply #299 on: March 06, 2009, 03:36:20 PM »
Would the Dungeoncrasher fighter variant count as additional attacks if you were flying/floating above your target, to cause additional damage, or to knock one critter into another?

What about rend? The Constrict special quality? Dancing weapons?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 03:38:13 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]