Author Topic: 1,067,212 attacks in a single action  (Read 143972 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

EjoThims

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1945
  • The Ferret
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #240 on: January 11, 2009, 02:21:52 AM »
[edit] A 12 headed hydra with the multiheaded template should have up to 19 heads, altogether. Fun-fun.

Actually, it could have up to 23 heads, as per SS (printed later than that article) the multi-headed template can add up to 11 heads to a Huge creature. ;)

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #241 on: January 11, 2009, 02:25:55 AM »
Well, racial Hit Dice are considered levels for all purposes, and a barghest can become a greater barghest, and can gain up to 12 Hit Dice in this way. So your mind seed should actually be 4 Hit Dice higher than you were before beginning your orgy of feeding.

Using mind seed and the feed ability (which does work, by the way), would give your "second you" the ability to use form of doom.

However, I'm sure using fusion + astral seed would be better, since it actually IS you, if reincarnated, and gives you lots more heads.

[edit] Ack. I'm mixing the two up.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 02:29:38 AM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

EjoThims

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1945
  • The Ferret
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #242 on: January 11, 2009, 02:36:05 AM »
Well, racial Hit Dice are considered levels for all purposes, and a barghest can become a greater barghest, and can gain up to 12 Hit Dice in this way. So your mind seed should actually be 4 Hit Dice higher than you were before beginning your orgy of feeding.

But they're not class levels. They're just HD. The difference is class abilities. Losing one class level would losee us 1k cuts. Gaining 4 Oh sequences is not worth giving up x4 attacks to all our existing OH sequences.

Using mind seed and the feed ability (which does work, by the way), would give your "second you" lots more heads

No it wouldn't. Number of heads are assigned arbitrarily when assigning the template, with size being a limiting factor but not a determining one. Increasing HD or size does not increase number of heads. And the template is acquired, so even if size did go up, you couldn't add it later.

However, I'm sure using fusion + astral seed would be better, since it actually IS you, if reincarnated.

Except it gets into the loss of the multiplier problem and goes outside the bounds of the exercise by using fusion.

I certainly appreciate the help, don't misunderstand. But these methods won't increase the number of attacks, even if they would let us cast Form of Doom with UPD.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #243 on: January 11, 2009, 02:45:45 AM »
I edited my last post before you responded. I was mixing the two up as I was trying to explain. Sorry.

You might not want to use fusion (though it'd grant you an additional 11 heads), but the barghest thing will work. I'm not sure why you think it wouldn't.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #244 on: January 11, 2009, 02:48:11 AM »
You don't lose manifester levels or class levels. You lose the racial Hit Dice you gained from the Feed ability.

(Added in an additional post because editing it into the last one seems to be a lost cause at this point.)
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

EjoThims

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1945
  • The Ferret
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #245 on: January 11, 2009, 03:00:17 AM »
You don't lose manifester levels or class levels. You lose the racial Hit Dice you gained from the Feed ability.

(Added in an additional post because editing it into the last one seems to be a lost cause at this point.)

Yea, quick responses on both ends will do that. lol

And do you mean then to transform into a Barghest first, feed, and then seed? Hrm. That could work, though I'll need more time than I have now to incorporate it into the numbers.

I had assumed you meant feed to recover the lost level since it came up after you mentioned losing the level in the first place.

You might not want to use fusion (though it'd grant you an additional 11 heads)

I still don't see where fusion grants you extra limbs? They're not an ability after all, and that's the only racial trait that fusion transfers.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #246 on: January 11, 2009, 03:12:13 AM »
Quote from: SRD
Likewise, all feats, racial abilities, and class features are pooled (if both creatures have the same ability, the fused being gains it only once).

"Racial abilities" includes natural attacks, number of limbs, and so on. A 23-headed hydra has 23 heads, and 23 bite attacks, which you gain while fused (and it gains the tentacles, et al). If you manifest astral seed while fused, when you resurrect you retain all of the abilities you had when you manifested it, so you retain the 23 heads and all of the...other qualities you had (ye gods, that abomination of yours is a mess).

Thus, you'd gain all of that, AND the ability to use form of doom for extra tentacle attacks.

If you used the barghest's Feed ability beforehand, you won't even have the level loss.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #247 on: January 11, 2009, 03:17:07 AM »
Also, sorry about the mixup on the order of operations. Yes, you Feed first, then mind seed.

I'm tired, and should probably go to bed about now.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

EjoThims

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1945
  • The Ferret
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #248 on: January 11, 2009, 03:37:26 AM »
"Racial abilities" includes ... number of limbs

While logical, I can't find where it actually says this anywhere. Perhaps it's just my failure to navigate the online SRD while I'm away from my books (they're on my dead computer :()? But without that I can't find anything in the fusion power that denotes either way how many of each limb the fused creature has, or even if it's based on the creatures involved at all.

(ye gods, that abomination of yours is a mess).

Why thank you.  :love

If you used the barghest's Feed ability beforehand, you won't even have the level loss.

This will net us 4 more offhands from Form of Doom (finally!). Update/math to come.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #249 on: January 11, 2009, 03:40:27 AM »
"Racial abilities" is everything your race gives to you, including Natural abilities, Ex abilities, Su abilities and SL (and PsL) abilities. Since number of limbs, heads, and natural attacks are natural abilities, you gain them. You also gain regeneration and such, but that has nothing to do with this particular challenge.

[edit] The term really isn't defined anywhere in the Core Three, so basically we have to go with the standard D&D use of the words 'racial' and 'abilities'. Since it didn't use the phrase 'ability scores,' in that instance, it's not talking about Str, Dex, etc (further concluded due to the fact that the power deals with ability scores later in the description). Thus, it should be concluded that it's talking about the other kind of 'abilities,' which are Natural, Extraordinary, Supernatural, and Spell-Like/Psi-Like (and since it's talking about similar class abilities right in the same paragraph, this is even more likely).

Thus, the definition of the phrase.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 03:47:39 AM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

EjoThims

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1945
  • The Ferret
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #250 on: January 11, 2009, 03:53:40 AM »
Since number of limbs, heads... are natural abilities, you gain them.

This assumes that they are abilities at all (they would indeed be natural if they are), which is what I cannot find a reference for.

Of course, there are abilities out there that grant extra arms or such, but I cannot personally find any reference that would imply that a creature's form is one of it's natural abilities. The implication seems to, in fact, be the opposite, as spells can grant abilities without form or vice versa. That said, fusion makes no mention of form of the fused creature in the least (assuming that form is not an ability); the fused entity may well be a mix of forms of the two fused creatures, or it may be a featureless cube.  :o

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #251 on: January 11, 2009, 04:02:56 AM »
If not abilities granted by race, what else could 'racial abilities' possibly be?

Also keep in mind that if something isn't specified as Supernatural, Spell-Like, Psi-Like, or Extraordinary, it's a Natural ability.

Quote from: SRD
Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Ergo, if it's listed, and it's not Ex, Su, SL, or PsL, it's Natural. Thus, it's an ability, and it's granted by race. QED (or it should be, anyway).
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

EjoThims

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1945
  • The Ferret
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #252 on: January 11, 2009, 04:26:06 AM »
Thus, it's an ability

Where are you getting that form is an ability? That arms are an ability? Eyes? Necks?

If form is an ability, it is a natural ability, yes. But I can't find anywhere that it would count as an ability. (The PHB glossary [one of the few books I do have right now] is no help, as under 'ability:' it lists Str, Dex, etc.)

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #253 on: January 11, 2009, 04:45:43 AM »
If it's not Ex, Su, Ps or Sp, it's Natural. Movement modes are natural unless specified otherwise. Natural attacks are natural. Other nonmagical functions of the body are either Extraordinary or Natural. Since body shape isn't specified as Extraordinary, and is nonmagical, then yes, it is a Natural ability, as noted in my quote from the SRD.

And yes, ability scores are Natural abilities as well, but 'ability score' is far and away not the only kind of ability that exists.  After all, Su, Sp, Ps, and Ex abilities are also abilities, and ability scores are specifically called out as separate from 'racial abilities' as mentioned in the power.

So yes, that's exactly it. Arms, legs, neck, and other functions of body shape grant racial abilities, as noted by the fact that they don't fit into the categories of Su, Sp, Ps, or Ex.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

EjoThims

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1945
  • The Ferret
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #254 on: January 11, 2009, 04:57:31 AM »
Since body shape isn't specified as Extraordinary, and is nonmagical, then yes, it is a Natural ability, as noted in my quote from the SRD.

Again, yes, if it is an ability, it is a natural ability.

But I see nowhere that shape is defined as an ability in the first place.

And yes, ability scores are Natural abilities as well, but 'ability score' is far and away not the only kind of ability that exists.

Nor did I say they were. Just that the only definition given in the PHB glossaryfor ability was ability scores.

So yes, that's exactly it.

Type of ability doesn't even matter at this point. You have not yet shown anything that calls them out as abilities.

How is form an ability at all? That is what I am questioning.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #255 on: January 11, 2009, 02:05:09 PM »
You do realize that Extraordinary abilities and Natural abilities are, y'know, abilities, as specified in their names? And that racial abilities are abilities granted by race? C'mon, man. It doesn't take a huge leap of Einsteinian logic, here.

If you're going to be purposefully dense just to try and tick me off, I'm not going to try and help you any more.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 02:09:01 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

AfterCrescent

  • Honorary Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 4220
  • Here After
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #256 on: January 11, 2009, 04:32:04 PM »
You do realize that Extraordinary abilities and Natural abilities are, y'know, abilities, as specified in their names? And that racial abilities are abilities granted by race? C'mon, man. It doesn't take a huge leap of Einsteinian logic, here.

If you're going to be purposefully dense just to try and tick me off, I'm not going to try and help you any more.
Dude, don't get upset. He's not trying to tick you off. He's being ultra specific. This is TO, and this project in particular is the most literal project I've seen in a while.

Ejo doesn't use leaps of logic if the rules spell things out. Form is never specified as an ability. For instance, Halfling is a race, and it gives racial abilities, (which includes size), but does it necessarily give the halfling form? Does it give the hair halflings have? Because the hair color and type is definitely a part of form, but not necessarily a 'natural ability'.

You see what I'm getting at? Form isn't specified as an ability or not, so it could be argued either way.
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #257 on: January 11, 2009, 05:34:29 PM »
You gain the other creature's racial abilities. Su, Sp, Ps, Ex, and Natural. I don't see what's confusing about this.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Callix

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 622
  • Not cool enough for a custom title.
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #258 on: January 11, 2009, 07:39:36 PM »
You gain the other creature's racial abilities. Su, Sp, Ps, Ex, and Natural. I don't see what's confusing about this.
Whether or not physical form is in an ability in the rules sense of the word.
I know gameology-fu.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: 1,063,372 attacks in a single action
« Reply #259 on: January 11, 2009, 10:26:42 PM »
You gain the other creature's racial abilities. Su, Sp, Ps, Ex, and Natural. I don't see what's confusing about this.
Whether or not physical form is in an ability in the rules sense of the word.

See:

Quote from: SRD
Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Everything is one of those kinds of abilities. Those that aren't Ex, Su, Sp, or Ps are Natural. That means that any and everything that it's possible to put in a stat block is an ability. You basically have two choices for types of abilities gained: through class or race. There really aren't any others. Fusion specifies that you get both.

There really shouldn't be any discussion about it, because it is pretty clear as to what you get: everything that both creatures get. If both of you have abilities that overlap, you get the better of the two.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 10:33:08 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]