Author Topic: I can't believe I'm saying this, but I need help with Gestalt.  (Read 3157 times)

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Kuroimaken

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Okay, here's the thing. I'm going to devise a gestalt character for PbP game, starting at level 4. I intend to make one size Swordsage and the other Shapeshifting Druid. Naturally, I realize this may not be the most optimal approach from a CO standpoint, but I would appreciate any help you guys could supply in the meantime.

Basic things to keep in mind:

1) There are three methods for score generation. I find them INCREDIBLY generous, by the way:

1. 5d6X7 drop lowest two in each score and lowest total score.

2. 1d8+10X7 drop lowest total score.

3.24d6, keep rolling until you get above average (84)
throw away 6 lowest, rearrange remaining at will

2) No Dragon stuffs.

3) Only one PrC at a time on either side. You can take one for each side but not at the same time, basically.

4) No flaws/traits, no bloodlines, LA only takes up one side.

The baseline of this guy is use maneuvers while shapeshifted for maximum fun (I'm really considering Warshaper here), minimizing caster/spell shenanigans (chances are there will be wizards flying up the wazoo there). I'd prefer to keep the cheese to a somewhat minimum (I know it's hard because it's gestalt AND a druid, but hey, I'm trying). A few questions pop to mind, however.

One: if I do take Warshaper, which side am I applying it to? The Swordsage side would slow maneuver progression while the Druid side would slow form acquisition (I don't much care for the spells since, like I said, I expect someone to play Batman). Then again, it IS only three levels, so it might be a non-issue.

Two: What would (probably) be the preferred stat distribution after Wisdom?

Three: Which stat generation should I use? They all look so damn good.
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Callix

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Re: I can't believe I'm saying this, but I need help with Gestalt.
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2008, 09:04:05 AM »
Shapeshift druid means we can't just dump physical stats, so we have at least three and probably four decent stats. Option 3 is for SAD, as it virtually guarantees an 18, but will screw over a couple of stats in the process. Option 2, on the other hand, virtually guarantees positive modifiers (even where you don't need them), but gives highly random scores aside from that. Option 1 looks like your best choice, IMO. Option 3 can net you very good Wis + Str, solid Dex or Con, but risks screwing the other. Doable, but 1) looks better.

As for the Warshaper side, it's usually better to delay maneuver-based classes than casters, but it's very much a style choice. Druid and Swordsage will give you the raw power to handle almost anything.
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AndyJames

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Re: I can't believe I'm saying this, but I need help with Gestalt.
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2008, 09:32:48 AM »
I would go Master of Many Forms over Shapeshift Druid. It seems ideal for what you seem to want. Just have a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp and go nuts. Unarmed Swordsage would also be a good thing to take. Basically, I would envision:

Wildshape Ranger 5/MoMF 7/Warshaper 4/Nature's Warrior 4 // Unarmed Swordsage 20

Equipment:
4x Wilding Clasp (16k)
Amulet of Magnificence +6 (same as belt, but different slot) (200k)
Monk's Belt (13k)
Vest of Resistance +5 (25k)
Ring of Evasion (25k)

That's all you really need, actually.

Kuroimaken

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Re: I can't believe I'm saying this, but I need help with Gestalt.
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2008, 03:24:28 PM »
Quote
Shapeshift druid means we can't just dump physical stats, so we have at least three and probably four decent stats. Option 3 is for SAD, as it virtually guarantees an 18, but will screw over a couple of stats in the process. Option 2, on the other hand, virtually guarantees positive modifiers (even where you don't need them), but gives highly random scores aside from that. Option 1 looks like your best choice, IMO. Option 3 can net you very good Wis + Str, solid Dex or Con, but risks screwing the other. Doable, but 1) looks better.

As for the Warshaper side, it's usually better to delay maneuver-based classes than casters, but it's very much a style choice. Druid and Swordsage will give you the raw power to handle almost anything.

Well, attribute dependancy on a melee type can be mitigated somewhat due to things like the Swordsage's discipline focus and Shadow Blade.
Quote
I would go Master of Many Forms over Shapeshift Druid. It seems ideal for what you seem to want. Just have a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp and go nuts. Unarmed Swordsage would also be a good thing to take. Basically, I would envision:

Wildshape Ranger 5/MoMF 7/Warshaper 4/Nature's Warrior 4 // Unarmed Swordsage 20

Equipment:
4x Wilding Clasp (16k)
Amulet of Magnificence +6 (same as belt, but different slot) (200k)
Monk's Belt (13k)
Vest of Resistance +5 (25k)
Ring of Evasion (25k)

That's all you really need, actually.
That sounds nice, actually (though I picked shapeshift druid because I like the idea of not being limited on times/day when I shift). Any particular reason for not taking MoMF or Warshaper all the way? Nature's Warrior seems a little lackluster to me...
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

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[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Smudgy

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Re: I can't believe I'm saying this, but I need help with Gestalt.
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2008, 10:35:45 PM »
That sounds nice, actually (though I picked shapeshift druid because I like the idea of not being limited on times/day when I shift). Any particular reason for not taking MoMF or Warshaper all the way? Nature's Warrior seems a little lackluster to me...

If you don't like Nature's Warrior, you could always take three levels of Fist of the Forest, then fill the last level with whatever you like, perhaps level adjustment with the gestalt you're playing with. Maybe the Feral template, but I'm not sure if the fast healing stacks with the Warshapers. Do shapeshifted goliaths retain Powerful Build? my memory tells me no, but if it does then that could be worth it.

Kuroimaken

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Re: I can't believe I'm saying this, but I need help with Gestalt.
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2008, 12:38:14 AM »
Quote
If you don't like Nature's Warrior, you could always take three levels of Fist of the Forest, then fill the last level with whatever you like, perhaps level adjustment with the gestalt you're playing with. Maybe the Feral template, but I'm not sure if the fast healing stacks with the Warshapers. Do shapeshifted goliaths retain Powerful Build? my memory tells me no, but if it does then that could be worth it.

It's not that I dislike them, it's just that I feel like I'm losing something taking it. Fist of the Forest actually has something nice to offer (Con to AC on a naked build? Yes please with a cherry on top!), although for this character I'd prefer not to have the limitation of never sleeping indoors. I envision him as something of a "natural martial artist" (belonging to an order of Swordsages that call upon their inner primal powers to shift into combat forms and whatnot), and as such he requires a bit of civilization. I also decided he'll be CG so that might get in the way of a PrC or two. For the same reason, I'd rather avoid the Feral template. As I mentioned before, I'm trying to keep this in a reasonable level.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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AndyJames

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Re: I can't believe I'm saying this, but I need help with Gestalt.
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2008, 06:18:54 PM »
That sounds nice, actually (though I picked shapeshift druid because I like the idea of not being limited on times/day when I shift). Any particular reason for not taking MoMF or Warshaper all the way? Nature's Warrior seems a little lackluster to me...
Well, the real ability that MoMF gives you are the various extra types you can wildshape into, fast wildshaping, and getting the Ex special qualities (which includes regeneration) of the forms you assume. You get all those by level 7. There is no reason to go all the way to 10 unless you want to be a (relatively) small dragon with no breath weapon, or you are really afraid of being baleful polymorphed or hit with disintegrate.

Warshaper's great claim to fame is the bonus Str and Con, reach and fast healing. You get those by level 4. You can take level 5, but only if you want to change multiple times over the course of a single wildshape. I would have thought that 8/day is more than enough, but YMMV.

3 levels of Nature's Warrior can nett you a +4 increase to nat AC or some other goodies. The casting level is lacklustre, of course, but you only need 1 level of FotF to get the Con to AC bit (I forgot about this PrC, to be honest).

Kuroimaken

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Re: I can't believe I'm saying this, but I need help with Gestalt.
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2008, 11:42:07 PM »
Quote
Well, the real ability that MoMF gives you are the various extra types you can wildshape into, fast wildshaping, and getting the Ex special qualities (which includes regeneration) of the forms you assume. You get all those by level 7. There is no reason to go all the way to 10 unless you want to be a (relatively) small dragon with no breath weapon, or you are really afraid of being baleful polymorphed or hit with disintegrate.

Warshaper's great claim to fame is the bonus Str and Con, reach and fast healing. You get those by level 4. You can take level 5, but only if you want to change multiple times over the course of a single wildshape. I would have thought that 8/day is more than enough, but YMMV.

3 levels of Nature's Warrior can nett you a +4 increase to nat AC or some other goodies. The casting level is lacklustre, of course, but you only need 1 level of FotF to get the Con to AC bit (I forgot about this PrC, to be honest).
The caster level increase is negligible if I'm going to enter it with Wildshaping Ranger, actually (unless there are some REALLY good Ranger spells I'm missing). Also, alignment choice conflicts kinda prevent me from taking Nature's Warrior (why the heck does it even have an alignment requirement?!).
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For proof, look here:

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anomalousman

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Re: I can't believe I'm saying this, but I need help with Gestalt.
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2008, 05:04:30 AM »
Three: Which stat generation should I use? They all look so damn good.

This one is easy.  I just tested them with a brute force method, converting the resulting stat arrays to a point buy equivalent.

Option 1:  Mean: 42.7, StandardDeviation: 9.3

Option 2:  Mean: 53.2, StandardDeviation: 10.9

Option 3:  Mean: 44.7, StandardDeviation: 6.7

So option two is vastly preferred.   Unsurprisingly, option three is the most consistent, but the average stats are much lower, including the top few stats that you can possibly make.  Option 1 has nothing going for it.

Kuroimaken

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Re: I can't believe I'm saying this, but I need help with Gestalt.
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2008, 05:49:05 AM »
Quote
This one is easy.  I just tested them with a brute force method, converting the resulting stat arrays to a point buy equivalent.

Option 1:  Mean: 42.7, StandardDeviation: 9.3

Option 2:  Mean: 53.2, StandardDeviation: 10.9

Option 3:  Mean: 44.7, StandardDeviation: 6.7

So option two is vastly preferred.   Unsurprisingly, option three is the most consistent, but the average stats are much lower, including the top few stats that you can possibly make.  Option 1 has nothing going for it.

Nice, that's one problem out the window.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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anomalousman

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Re: I can't believe I'm saying this, but I need help with Gestalt.
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2008, 08:52:48 AM »
I should point out that it is true that option three produces more stat arrays with an 18 in them, but you're building a character needing Wis, Dex, Str and Con, so I think option two is outright better.

As a build, I'd strongly consider a TWF unarmed fighter.  With MoMF, you can take multiattack and multiweapon fighting as feats, so you get the whole effect much cheaper than a normal TWF fighter.  Also, as an unarmed swordsage, you can get a lot of bonuses to damage that are per hit (Desert Wind maneuvers are cheap, and don't forget Assassin's Stance and the Shadow Blade feat).  Then add at least the first two levels of Bloodclaw Master and Warshaper 3, and you've got a great little hitter.  Bloodclaw master makes TWF have no to hit penalty, and gives you full strength bonus on more or less every attack.  Pick Tiger Claw as your discipline focus choice, and you'll get lots of extra damage on your claws as well as your unarmed strikes.

Each hit will be at without penalty.  You'll get up to 5 unarmed strikes at your full attack bonus (haste, raging mongoose, TWF), however many natural attacks at -2 (don't forget your warshaper weapon), and two attacks for each iterative BAB. 

Each of these attacks will have full  +Str damage (Bloodclaw master) +Wis damage (Swordsage discipline) + Dex damage (Shadow Blade), and possibly sneak attack damage (assassin's stance).  As well as magical bonuses and maybe +3d6+level from a desert wind boost.  Also, the base damage of a monk/unarmed swordsage will scale up as you take larger forms, so you could end up with truly ridiculous base damage as well.

I'd think a BAB-improving splash of Lion Totem Barbarian would round it out nicely.  Pounce is so great with bounding assault, I can't praise it enough.  If that's no good, then pouncing charge will have to do  ;)

Here's a suggestion.  You could drop the barbarian and 2 levels of Bloodclaw master if you wanted the space.  You could also put BCM (earlier) into the swordsage side as it increases initiator level, but only if there was a base class you wanted on the other side instead.

Unarmed Swordsage 20 // Lion totem Barbarian 1 / Wildshape Ranger 5 / MoMF 7 / Bloodclaw master 4 / Warshaper 3