Author Topic: The "Rebuilding" Handbook  (Read 31237 times)

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Agita

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2008, 12:51:41 PM »
A DM might frown on making a cohort teach you Druidic. You are better off convincing another party member to go thrallherd and picking up a druid thrall, who is more likely to co-operate.
Charm Person and Suggestion are on the Bard spell list. Since I'm a firm believer in self-sufficience, you can also make your cohort a thrallherd and learn Druidic at a later point. The DM will likely frown on that even more, tho.
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Agita

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2008, 01:20:38 PM »
New idea: Instead of taking a dead level in cleric at level 9, we can take Expert 1 (the generic class from UA), selecting Fort and another save as our good saves. This nets us Evasion (since our base Ref save already is higher than +3), negating the need for a ring that can be lost, and we get to keep the base Fort save required for Ur-Priest.
The problem would be that UA recommends not using generic classes with standard classes.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 08:09:57 PM by Agita »
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Ieniemienie

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2008, 01:37:56 PM »
what stops you from taking one level druid and then rebuild it into something else while retaining druidic?
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Agita

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2008, 01:45:33 PM »
what stops you from taking one level druid and then rebuild it into something else while retaining druidic?
Druids gain Druidic as bonus language. much like a Fighter's bonus feats, it isn't retained if you rebuild the level. I think.
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Ieniemienie

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2008, 01:51:44 PM »
what stops you from taking one level druid and then rebuild it into something else while retaining druidic?
Druids gain Druidic as bonus language. much like a Fighter's bonus feats, it isn't retained if you rebuild the level. I think.
If you see Druidic as a class feature, then it will not be retained... Easy to not see it as one though
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Agita

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2008, 03:05:16 PM »
what stops you from taking one level druid and then rebuild it into something else while retaining druidic?
Druids gain Druidic as bonus language. much like a Fighter's bonus feats, it isn't retained if you rebuild the level. I think.
If you see Druidic as a class feature, then it will not be retained... Easy to not see it as one though
Yeah, I guess it's a judgement call. Even so, I would not take druid simple because WoTC expects you to. :P
Another idea: With rebuilding, you can get an Ur-Priest 10 build. At level 10.
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Ieniemienie

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2008, 03:57:59 PM »
only mechanical issue with all that rebuilding;
The PHBII requires you to fulfill a rebuild quest every time you want to rebuild your character. And only the toughest are supposed to survive; you face encounters 3 ECL above party level... good luck surviving that every level
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Nox_Noctis

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2008, 04:01:59 PM »
... I thought part of optimizing a character was that you could deal with things most characters could not (encounters with CRs above the norm).
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Agita

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2008, 04:22:06 PM »
... I thought part of optimizing a character was that you could deal with things most characters could not (encounters with CRs above the norm).
Plus if you start at high enough level, you can put it all in your background. :D
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Nox_Noctis

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2008, 04:26:03 PM »
Indeed, Paul, that is, perhaps, one of my most favorite aspects of character building. Backgrounds are entirely what you make of them.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2008, 07:50:17 PM »
Hey Nox, good stuff. I was gonna do one of these myself, but you beat me to it.

Three points:
#1: You have to beat 1d4@CR wandering monster encounters, and 3@(CR+3) normal encounters. Monsterous Crab is CR 7 = good luck. NPC optimized can have some really bad stuff, just low gear. There's no listing info about how big your party can be, neither about how long you take to do it. So big party, multiple days. You are nova-ing, monsters are bringing in re-enforcements. Alot of DM fiat possible here.

#2: Sage ruled in with (i'm semi-quoting here) Advancement follows normal rules. OK. I'll see if I can link it.

#3: My example stands. Wizard 8 / PrC 2 is a 10hd creature. Rebuild 2 levels after successful quest. Woops, you PrC isn't functional now for some reason. What are you? A Wizard 6 / "something" 2 / non-functioning class 2. In other words, as simply as possible, the worst case scenario is Wiz 6 / Commoner 4. So you happen to have had Practised Spellcaster feat, not doing much previously. Your CL is 10. You immediately requalify for the PrC (perhaps), now you are a Wiz 6 / PrC 2 (very weirdly qualified for) / 2hd waiting to be rebuilt. So you take the PrC, to be finally, Wiz 6 / PrC 4.

Conclusion: What we are doing here, does not violate the book's paragraph 3 or what the Sage ruled. It does use paragraph 4, and the following 2 pages. More clarifying text is in Racial rebuilding right next to it. "Rebuilding racial levels is difficult" is what the text says. It doesn't say that about class rebuilding. Commoner.
Let's call this what it is. Overqualifying.
The rules also state what you get to keep, during the ~instantaneous transition. BAB skills feats etc ...
Some minimal amount of paper work, and attention to detail. At the very least, count the iffy levels as Commoner; if you still qualify, lucky you. Using a class to extremely complicatedly qualify for itself, is fun. You can do this over and over, not that anyone will, slowly but surely getting slightly more powerful each crazy quest and rebuild hash.



Straw_Man

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2008, 08:14:00 PM »

Ah finally an appropriate place to bring up this TO question. I'm a Fighter 1/ Wiz 17. I've just Dark Chaos Shuffled my fighter feat. Can I rebuild my fighter levels to something else after I stripped them?

Part 2) Assuming I can, I go, I dunno, Ranger for a lark, if I retrain back to Fighter - do I get a new Feat?

If this works, you could set up a laundry line of feat generation - anytime your too high level go mess with a level draining undead  :D
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Agita

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2008, 02:32:43 PM »
Aside from my personal thoughts on losing a caster level and taking 17 levels of Wizard without PrC'ing, I'm not sure if that's possible. My first thought would be no, but I might be wrong.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2008, 06:46:14 PM »
I don't think that would work past the level you used it at.
Better would be using a Legacy weapon for all of those feats.
iirc - the 63+ feats thread back on the old board, gave the way to get this going.
Rebuilding would yank the class features, so they'd be gone;
 so you wouldn't have the feats you DarkChaos'd anymore.

It might serve your purposes for the level, but beating the quest is sitting there vs. trickery.

Straw_Man

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2008, 06:50:41 PM »
I don't think that would work past the level you used it at.
Better would be using a Legacy weapon for all of those feats.
iirc - the 63+ feats thread back on the old board, gave the way to get this going.
Rebuilding would yank the class features, so they'd be gone;
 so you wouldn't have the feats you DarkChaos'd anymore.

It might serve your purposes for the level, but beating the quest is sitting there vs. trickery.


If I understand you correctly, when your rebuilding the now non-figther feats will also be 'yanked' back? I know thats certainly the game balanced and reasonable answer, but consider this a TO hypothetical. Is there any text that supports that?

Thanks for taking the time to answer man  :)
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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2008, 07:04:08 PM »
I don't have the book sitting right in front of me, but It's pretty clear you loose Class features.
The trick this thread is using is the between level normal stuff.
No fighter level = no fighter level at all, but keep commoner type stuff, during the transition.

example my fav is fixing Metamind, a terrible class.
Cleric 1 / Ardent 2 / Mystic Theurge 1 with Psiotheurgist (something) and the 2 feats from Cityscape.
Wheu ... into Metamind early by one level. Ok it sucks.
Later rebuild 2 levels into Cleric 1 / Ardent 1 / Metamind X+2 keeping Psio. PsyRefing out the 2 citys feats.
At level 12 you have a party powerpoint pumper, then takes Erudite 1, to gain the Psicrystal for less investment, and the access to Spell to Power madness. Crazy fun and not TO worthy.

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2008, 06:15:08 PM »
Having finally found the inspiration to do so, I present you

The Sublime Ur-Lyrist
Or: Mystic Theurge, eat your heart out. By the way, you suck.

Race - Human. Those extra skill points will be needed.

Attributes (32 pb): Str 8, Dex 8, Con 8, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 16. Wis and Cha are our casting attributes, the high Int modifier is needed for the large number of skill points we have to purchase. When all relevant skill ranks are purchased and set in stone, we can rebuild some Int points into our casting attributes, since skill points are not retroactive (i.e. when you lose or gain Intelligence, you do not lose or gain skill points you earned at earlier levels).

Level breakdown

Level 1
Factotum 1 - Able Learner, Iron Will. The combination of a single level of Factotum and the Able Learner feat gives us all skills as class skills for the rest of our carreer. Iron Will is needed to qualify for Ur-Priest. Between our +4 Int Mod, 6+Int skill points, and being human, we get 11 skill points per level, or 44 at level 1. Max out Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (The planes), Perform (String Instruments), Diplomacy, Gather Information, Sleight of Hand, Listen, Bluff, and Spellcraft.
Level 2
Bard 1 - Keep the skills from last level maxxed out.
Level 3
Bard 2 - Spell Focus (Evil). Since we need only 5 ranks in Knowledge (The planes), we can drop that now and put the extra point in Decipher Script instead.
Level 4
Bard 3 - We'll put our stat increase in Cha here. Since we now have 6 ranks in Spellcraft and Bluff, we can stop worrying about them for now and put the two points in Profession (Astrologer) instead. Otherwise, as before. Our skill ranks should now look like this: Bluff 6, Decipher Script 2, Diplomacy 7, Gather Information 7, Knowledge (Arcana, nature, religion) 7, Knowledge (The Planes) 5, Listen 7, Perform (String Instruments) 7, Profession (Astrologer) 2, Sleight of Hand 7, Spellcraft 6. After this level, the pressure on our skill points eases up considerably, as many of the skill requirements for Fochlucan Lyrist cap at 7.
Level 5
Bard 4 - At this level we can stop maxxing Knowledge (Nature), Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Sleight of Hand. This frees up skill points for Decipher Script and Profession. That means 3 ranks for each from the freed-up skills (including Bluff and Spellcraft), plus one rank each for the level, and we've got all we need. Our ranks are now Bluff 6, Decipher Script 6, Diplomacy 7, Gather Information 7, Knowledge (Arcana, religion) 8, Knowledge (Nature) 7, Knowledge (The Planes) 5, Listen 8, Perform (String Instruments) 8, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sleight of Hand 7, Spellcraft 6.
Level 6
Bard 5 - Leadership. Get a cohort (Anything, really. I'd recommend the same build as you. Or perhaps a bodyguard.) and a bunch of followers. Make one of the followers be a druid and have him teach you Druidic. This will turn him into an useless ex-Druid, so have him trigger the next best trap and get a new one. Since our leadership score (9) won't allow for followers yet, we'll buy a Cloak of Charisma +2 in order to get it to 10. As for skills, we continue maxxing Knowledge (Arcana), Listen, and Perform. We'll need to put two more ranks into Spellcraft in order to meet the Ur-Priest prerequisites, as well as a rank into speak language for Druidic, but aside from that, we now have complete leeway with our skills and can start rebuilding ability scores starting next level. Let's put another the remaining 6 skill point into concentration.
Level 7
Bard 6 - A bunch of stuff will happen this level. Since we now have everything we need aside from Listen, K (arcana), and Perform, we can rebuild our Int all the way down to 11. We get 10 points out of the deal, allowing us to bump our Wis to 18.  We keep maxxing Knowledge (Arcana), Listen, and Perform. We now max out concentration, as all casters should.
Level 8
Bard 7 - Another Stat increase to Cha. Now our Wis and Cha scores are 18 each. This is the last level of Bard we need to qualify for Sublime Chord's casting prerequisite. Knowledge (Arcana), Listen, Perform, and Concentration continue to be maxxed, the rest is irrelevant. Heck, let's put them into Tea Ceremony from RCS.
Level 9
Cleric 1 - Open feat slot. This level is just to qualify for Ur-Priest's Fort save requirement, really. Clerics only get 2+Int skill points, but thanks to the extra skill point from being human we can still keep all three relevant skills maxxed. If you have been paying attention until now, you know what those are.
Level 10
Ur-Priest 1 - Now the brokenness begins. At this level, we have reached all prerequistites for all classes we are going to take. We max the big three, and starting next level, we a) have absolute leeway with skill points, and more importantly, b) we stop sucking ass and instead start kicking said ass. This is also when we buy a Ring of Evasion in order to meet the pesky evasion prereq.
Level 11
Sublime Chord 1 - The moment (or rather, level) of truth. We now rebuild three bard levels (Since the entry specifically says "rounded up", we can rebuild three class leves instead of two even though 11/5 is only 2.2) into Fochlucan Lyrist. Since we still have 4 Bard levels left, we meet the bardic music prereq of Sublime chord and the bardic knowledge prereq of Fochlucan lyrist, and Fochlucan Lyrist doesn't lose us any skill points, so we're good. This should go without saying, but we apply the CL increase of FL to Sublime Chord Spells, not bard spells. We can now cast 6th level arcane and 4th level divine spells.
Level 12
Fochlucan Lyrist 4 - Open Feat slot. We put the ability bonus into... uh, let's say Cha again. Now we rebuild three more Bard levels into Fochlucan Lyrist, leaving us with one as a safety cushion for reasons explained in my previous post. We now cast 8th level arcane and divine spells.
Level 13
Fochlucan Lyrist 8 - Now we have 9th arcane and divine spells. Optionally, we can rebuild the dead cleric level into Rogue and take a level of Rogue next level in order to get evasion without fear of having our class features stolen.

Summary


We get 9th level spells from two awesome lists - at level 13, when we're supposed to first get access to 7th level spells from a single list. The final build is as follows:
Factotum 1/Bard 1/Cleric 1/Ur-Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 8
Ability Scores: Str 8, Dex 8, Con 8, Int 11, Wis 18, Cha 19
Feats: Able Learner, Iron Will, Spell Focus (Evil), Leadership, Open slot, Open slot

The build can, of course, be done without Factotum. I simply went with it in order to go easy on what little is left of my sanity.

I must have missed how you retained the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells to qualify for sublime cord once you retrained levels of bard and used fochlucan lyrist to advance the urpriest and sublime cord? ???
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Agita

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2008, 06:41:30 PM »
I must have missed how you retained the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells to qualify for sublime cord once you retrained levels of bard and used fochlucan lyrist to advance the urpriest and sublime cord? ???
Actually, you are right. I seriously thought that Sublime Lyrist got spells of level 3-9 instead of 4-9. I noticed it recently when I was browsing through CArc, but I was too lazy to change it. I'm working on a solution, but I haven't yet had the time or dedication to dedicate more than a passing thought to it. Adding three levels of Wizard along the way, advancing those with the first two levels of Lyrist, and simply taking two more comes to mind, but I'm sure I'll be able to find a more economic solution. Sorcerer works too, of course, with one more level.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 06:52:00 PM by Agita »
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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2008, 06:53:16 PM »
Arcane Disciple (Any) for the Sublime Chord would let you cast a 3rd lv spell in a 4th lv slot.

[Edit: And totally hose the Ur-Priest stuff.  Nevermind.]

Agita

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Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2008, 07:22:47 PM »
A (venerable) Dragonwrought Kobold comes to mind. Simply substitute three bard levels for three levels of Sorcerer, and take Loredrake and the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. This lets you cast as a 6th-level sorcerer. Sadly, one would have to give up Able Learner, which in turn means no more all skills as class skills at all levels.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 07:25:52 PM by Agita »
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