Author Topic: The "Rebuilding" Handbook  (Read 31238 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Nox_Noctis

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1236
  • A Simple Exchange
    • Email
The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« on: May 16, 2008, 09:44:42 PM »
"Rebuilding" [Player's Handbook II, page 197], in summary, allows a character to change his class levels. By RAW, these levels can be replaced with any other class level as long as his remaining levels (those not being rebuilt) would allow him to qualify.

Because of this, characters can play with only prestige class levels if desired in many cases.

Any class that has a Base Attack Bonus requirement and advances Base Attack Bonus by +1 per level can be rebuilt. For example, if a class requires BAB +4, you must first qualify and then enter it. Since it advances BAB by +1 at first level, you have BAB +5. If you rebuild a class level, you only count your remaining BAB (+4). Thus, you still qualify for the BAB requirement. You then have three base class levels and two prestige class levels. You can repeat this until you no longer have base class levels.

This same process applies to classes requiring Caster Levels that fully advance caster level at each level with one exception: you must retain at least 1 level of the base class for any prestige class that adds to your progression of a base class (as, without a base class, it cannot be added to anything and thus ceases to function).

Additionally, this also works with skill requirements. Since skill ranks are independent of class levels, you can rebuild new prestige class levels as long as you are already qualified for the prestige class in terms of skill ranks.

The following example uses both Rebuilding and Retraining (both located in the Player's Handbook II).
Quote from: Nox_Noctis
Below is a step-by-step method for minimizing the requirements to enter Ruby Knight Vindicator. "=>" indicates retraining a feat selection when it is no longer required or rebuilding a class level when it is no longer required. Soldier of Light allows you to rebuild your cleric level (and thus recover your base attack bonus) because it will fill the requirement for Ruby Knight Vindicator and thus you will not lose the benefits of the prestige class.

Step 1: Cleric 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 1
Human: Favored
1: Primary Contact
Fighter 1: Martial Study
3: Martial Stance

Step 2: Cleric 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 1
Human: Favored
1: Primary Contact => ?
Fighter 1: Martial Study
3: Martial Stance

Here you need to use skill point retraining to retrain a point into Knowledge (religion) at level 4 just before you enter Ruby Knight Vindicator. This will allow you to enter a level early (in addition to the cityscape feats, which let you enter another level earlier).

Step 3: Cleric 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 2
Human: Favored => ?
1: ?
Fighter 1: Martial Study
3: Martial Stance

Step 4: Cleric 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 3
Human: ?
1: ?
Fighter 1: Martial Study
3: Martial Stance => ?
6: ?

Step 5: Cleric 1/Fighter 1=> Something 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 4
Human: ?
1: ?
Fighter 1: Martial Study => ?
3: ?
6: ?

Step 6: Cleric 1/Something 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5
Human: ?
1: ?
3: ?
6: ?

Step 7: Cleric 1/Something 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 6
Human: ?
1: ?
3: ?
6: ?
9: ?

Step 8: Cleric 1/Something 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7
Human: ?
1: ?
3: ?
6: ?
9: ?

Step 8: Cleric 1=>Something 1/Something 1/Warblade 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Soldier of Light 1
Human: ?
1: ?
3: ?
6: ?
9: ?


Alternatively, you can use an Elf and take Fighter 2 to gain the feats you need in time. Then, by forgoing taking Soldier of Light (losing a single point of base attack bonus to Cleric 1), you can enter Eternal Blade and at level 20 you will have access to Island in Time (Eternal Blade 10). Now you can take your turn as an immediate action and then you and your cohort (identically constructed; alternatively, your cohort can forgo the Eternal Blade levels since only one of you needs Island in Time in most situations and your cohort will gain it only once you're in epic levels anyway) can use White Raven Tactics with one another.

As you can see, Rebuilding allows you to excise undesired levels that are otherwise needed to qualify for prestige classes.

I hope this has been helpful. This is a work in progress and I will work on formatting and add a section for specific applications of this process (classes that can be rebuilt).
« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 11:03:42 PM by Nox_Noctis »
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

heffroncm

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
    • Email
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2008, 09:46:44 PM »
Oh  my.  Now to convince my DM to let me play a build based on this.  I'm already abusing the retraining to run an Anima Mage on a Binder 1 / Wizard 1 base and train out the feats later.  Maybe I can get rid of Binder and Wizard altogether, and still take Anima Mage 10.

Agita

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5465
  • SFT is mai waifu.
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2008, 10:02:30 PM »
Oh  my.  Now to convince my DM to let me play a build based on this.  I'm already abusing the retraining to run an Anima Mage on a Binder 1 / Wizard 1 base and train out the feats later.  Maybe I can get rid of Binder and Wizard altogether, and still take Anima Mage 10.
I'm afraid that if you rebuild your wizard level into anything other than a PrC with its own casting (May I suggest Sublime Chord for evilness factor?), you won't have anything to add caster levels to. I'm not too familiar with the build, as I've never played binders, but I get a hunch that the same would apply to your binder level.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

Agita's Awesome Poster Compilation
Lycanthromancer's Awesome Poster Compilation

heffroncm

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
    • Email
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2008, 10:07:19 PM »
I'm afraid that if you rebuild your wizard level into anything other than a PrC with its own casting (May I suggest Sublime Chord for evilness factor?), you won't have anything to add caster levels to. I'm not too familiar with the build, as I've never played binders, but I get a hunch that the same would apply to your binder level.

d'oh, forgot that all the casting was "+1 caster blahblahblah".

As to the Binder portion, Anima Mage states,
"At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the Binder class."

Wording is slightly ambiguous, as it directly says it improves by a specific class instead of by "the class that granted Soul Binding you had before becoming an Anima Mage", which is the way Spellcasting works and to my understanding the reason you can't build out of your base casting class.

Agita

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5465
  • SFT is mai waifu.
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2008, 10:10:26 PM »
I'm afraid that if you rebuild your wizard level into anything other than a PrC with its own casting (May I suggest Sublime Chord for evilness factor?), you won't have anything to add caster levels to. I'm not too familiar with the build, as I've never played binders, but I get a hunch that the same would apply to your binder level.

d'oh, forgot that all the casting was "+1 caster blahblahblah".

As to the Binder portion, Anima Mage states,
"At each anima mage level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the Binder class."

Wording is slightly ambiguous, as it directly says it improves by a specific class instead of by "the class that granted Soul Binding you had before becoming an Anima Mage", which is the way Spellcasting works and to my understanding the reason you can't build out of your base casting class.
Come to think of it, is there a binder/divine casting hybrid? If you rebuild your wizard level to sublime chord and add ur-priest to the mix... mwa ha ha.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

Agita's Awesome Poster Compilation
Lycanthromancer's Awesome Poster Compilation

Nox_Noctis

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1236
  • A Simple Exchange
    • Email
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2008, 10:11:42 PM »
Oh  my.  Now to convince my DM to let me play a build based on this.  I'm already abusing the retraining to run an Anima Mage on a Binder 1 / Wizard 1 base and train out the feats later.  Maybe I can get rid of Binder and Wizard altogether, and still take Anima Mage 10.
I'm afraid that if you rebuild your wizard level into anything other than a PrC with its own casting (May I suggest Sublime Chord for evilness factor?), you won't have anything to add caster levels to. I'm not too familiar with the build, as I've never played binders, but I get a hunch that the same would apply to your binder level.
Yes, Jm2c, that is true. Caster Levels, I should note in my original post, differ ever so slightly from BAB in that you must maintain at least 1 level of the base class (still excising any extra levels or feats such as Precocious Apprentice used to qualify). Rebuilding still offers many options and is easily one of the most (but not the most) abusable features of the game.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

heffroncm

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
    • Email
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2008, 10:16:33 PM »
Come to think of it, is there a binder/divine casting hybrid? If you rebuild your wizard level to sublime chord and add ur-priest to the mix... mwa ha ha.

Not officially, but it's a commonly used variant.  I have issues with it though, as Anima Mage allows 3 free Metamagic applications per day.  Stacking that on top of DDM Persist is a little too much IMO, especially as it brings the opportunity cost way down when you want Persistent Spell anyway from the Anima Mage viewpoint.

Ieniemienie

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 690
    • Email
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2008, 08:02:08 AM »
isn't it seriously weird that you use retraining to change your levels and that you still qualify for the prestige class by the prestige class itself?  :confused
'DnD is not a game; it is a membership in a tribe that I joined long ago.'

Stupidity should be painful!

Agita

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5465
  • SFT is mai waifu.
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2008, 08:31:34 AM »
isn't it seriously weird that you use retraining to change your levels and that you still qualify for the prestige class by the prestige class itself?  :confused
Only about as weird as the fact that maneuvers can fulfill their own prerequisites.
Welcome to the world of RAW. :D
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

Agita's Awesome Poster Compilation
Lycanthromancer's Awesome Poster Compilation

DetectiveJabsco

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
  • Here's To Life
    • Email
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2008, 08:42:37 AM »
so your telling me using this i can play an Incantatrix10/Iot7FV7/Archmage3?
well this sir, is the most KA-broke thing i have ever seen! i never plan on playing anything else! Cheers to that!

Agita

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5465
  • SFT is mai waifu.
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2008, 08:46:32 AM »
so your telling me using this i can play an Incantatrix10/Iot7FV7/Archmage3?
well this sir, is the most KA-broke thing i have ever seen! i never plan on playing anything else! Cheers to that!
Nope, sorry. Unless incantatrix gets its own casting (which I doubt. I don't have FR materials, but if it got own casting instead of advancing casting, I doubt God players would be so over it.), you need at least one level of Wizard in there. Otherwise, you're golden.
Actually, the most KA-broke thing you've ever seen is right there, in the PHB. It's called Candle of Invocation. Closely followed by being the DM and Polymorph and consorts.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

Agita's Awesome Poster Compilation
Lycanthromancer's Awesome Poster Compilation

DetectiveJabsco

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
  • Here's To Life
    • Email
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2008, 09:00:16 AM »
Wishes can only get you so far, and they can turn out poorly if your not careful.
Being a DM is no fun, its to easy to win...lol
I believe you mean polymorph any object
Consorts?
Also you forgot Leadership

Then what i meant was

Wizard1/Incantatrix10/Iot7FV7/Archmage10
With
Craft wounderous item-Candle
Leadership-Druid9/Planer sheperd10
Start out Lawful/Good so i can call pazuzu(3 more wishes)

That pritty much covers it right?

Agita

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5465
  • SFT is mai waifu.
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2008, 09:06:03 AM »
Wishes can only get you so far, and they can turn out poorly if your not careful.
Wishes quite literally give you whatever you want. The Candle of invocation trick is the basis for Pun-Pun.
Being a DM is no fun, its to easy to win...lol
True dat.
I believe you mean polymorph any object
Consorts?
Polymorph and consorts includes Polymorph, Alter Self, Polymorph any Object and all those other broken spells that let you assume the qualities of any creature you want. Polymorph any Object, I believe, was errata'd to not be permanent anymore (hearsay, I never actually saw the ruling). I remember with fondness those childhood fantasies of paying an NPC to PaO my Dragonwrought Kobold into a prismatic dragon.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

Agita's Awesome Poster Compilation
Lycanthromancer's Awesome Poster Compilation

Ieniemienie

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 690
    • Email
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2008, 12:36:37 PM »
Since I found it strange that you can qualify for a Prestige Class using the Prestige class itself, I went and read the relevant section of the book. The following passage caught my eye;
"You can also use this method to trade out (or trade in) prestige class levels, though if you want to take levels in a prestige class that's new to your character, you must be able to demonstrate that he can still qualify for it using what he has gained from his remaining class levels"

Are prestige class levels equal to class levels? if so, then it works, but I don't think it works that way judging from the example provided in the text:

"If reallocating your character's class levels disqualifies him for a prestige class in which he has already take one or more levels, he loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by that prestige class"

This text makes me seriously wonder whether prestige class levels equal class levels
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 12:40:31 PM by Ieniemienie »
'DnD is not a game; it is a membership in a tribe that I joined long ago.'

Stupidity should be painful!

Agita

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5465
  • SFT is mai waifu.
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2008, 01:45:32 PM »
Since I found it strange that you can qualify for a Prestige Class using the Prestige class itself, I went and read the relevant section of the book. The following passage caught my eye;
"You can also use this method to trade out (or trade in) prestige class levels, though if you want to take levels in a prestige class that's new to your character, you must be able to demonstrate that he can still qualify for it using what he has gained from his remaining class levels"

Are prestige class levels equal to class levels? if so, then it works, but I don't think it works that way judging from the example provided in the text:

"If reallocating your character's class levels disqualifies him for a prestige class in which he has already take one or more levels, he loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by that prestige class"

This text makes me seriously wonder whether prestige class levels equal class levels
I'm pretty sure class levels includes PrC levels.

After dwelling on it for a while, I have come up with the following build proposal:
Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Ur-Priest 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 8
(The level of Bard is there as safety cushion; to my knowledge, it is still uncler whther Sublime Chord's bardic music and knowledge can be used to fulfill its own prerequisites or if it works like caster level increases)
This build literally gets the best (read: 9th level spells) of two worlds, at a (comparatively) low, low, level. You get 10d6+1d8 HD, meaning an average 39+Con mod hp, better than what most arcane/divine builds could ever hope to get (at this level, anyway); +8 BAB, or +10 if you are using fractional BAB; 9th level sublime chord casting (meaning 3rd to 9th level spells from the sorcerer/wizard or bard lists. The Bard list bit means, among others, that you can get some spells at lower level. Otto's Irresistible Dance at level 6, for example.); 9th level Ur-Priest casting (read: 1st to 9th level spells from the cleric list); all at level 11.
The requirements will be a bitch to get, but with some clever managing, you should be able to get all you need. Evasion and Druidic will need some shenanigans. Evaqsion can be accomplished, by RAW, with a simple ring for 25k, well within your level 11 wealth. Druidic can be learned from an ex-druid, perhaps a follower if you wish to take Leadership; or by taking a level in Loremaster (selecting Instant Mastery as your secret, getting 4 ranks in Speak Language)
the last 9 levels can be anything you wish. However, you will likely need to start higher than 11th level, since you only get to rebuild 1/5 character level levels per level. I will crunch some numbers and get a complete build up soon (or at least eventually).
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 04:38:57 PM by Agita »
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

Agita's Awesome Poster Compilation
Lycanthromancer's Awesome Poster Compilation

Nox_Noctis

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1236
  • A Simple Exchange
    • Email
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2008, 06:12:26 PM »
"You can also use this method to trade out (or trade in) prestige class levels, though if you want to take levels in a prestige class that's new to your character, you must be able to demonstrate that he can still qualify for it using what he has gained from his remaining class levels"

Are prestige class levels equal to class levels? if so, then it works, but I don't think it works that way judging from the example provided in the text:

Unless you want to tell me why class levels are not class levels, this works. I'm not saying it should work. It's horribly broken. But it's RAW and I was rather glad to have found it when I did a month or two ago.

Besides, non-prestige classes are base classes and would thus give you base class levels. But surely base class levels must count as class levels, right?
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Agita

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5465
  • SFT is mai waifu.
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2008, 07:48:34 PM »
Having finally found the inspiration to do so, I present you

The Sublime Ur-Lyrist v2.0
Or: Mystic Theurge, eat your heart out. By the way, you suck.

Special credit to Hazren for pointing out the possibility of using Chameleon to meet Sublime Chord's Prerequisites.

Race - Human. Those extra skill points will be needed.

Attributes (32 pb): Str 8, Dex 8, Con 8, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 16. Wis and Cha are our casting attributes, the high Int modifier is needed for the large number of skill points we have to purchase. When all relevant skill ranks are purchased and set in stone, we can rebuild some Int points into our casting attributes, since skill points are not retroactive (i.e. when you lose or gain Intelligence, you do not lose or gain skill points you earned at earlier levels).

Level breakdown

Level 1
Factotum 1 - Able Learner, Iron Will. The combination of a single level of Factotum and the Able Learner feat gives us all skills as class skills for the rest of our carreer. Iron Will is needed to qualify for Ur-Priest. Between our +4 Int Mod, 6+Int skill points, and being human, we get 11 skill points per level, or 44 at level 1. Max out Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (The planes), Perform (String Instruments), Diplomacy, Gather Information, Sleight of Hand, Listen, Bluff, and Spellcraft.
Level 2
Bard 1 - Keep the skills from last level maxxed out.
Level 3
Bard 2 - Spell Focus (Evil). Since we need only 5 ranks in Knowledge (The planes), we can drop that now and put the extra point in Decipher Script instead.
Level 4
Bard 3 - We'll put our stat increase in Cha here. Since we now have 6 ranks in Spellcraft and Bluff, we can stop worrying about them for now and put the two points in Profession (Astrologer) instead. Otherwise, as before. Our skill ranks should now look like this: Bluff 6, Decipher Script 2, Diplomacy 7, Gather Information 7, Knowledge (Arcana, nature, religion) 7, Knowledge (The Planes) 5, Listen 7, Perform (String Instruments) 7, Profession (Astrologer) 2, Sleight of Hand 7, Spellcraft 6. After this level, the pressure on our skill points eases up considerably, as many of the skill requirements for Fochlucan Lyrist cap at 7.
Level 5
Bard 4 - At this level we can stop maxxing Knowledge (Nature), Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Sleight of Hand. This frees up skill points for Decipher Script and Profession. That means 3 ranks for each from the freed-up skills (including Bluff and Spellcraft), plus one rank each for the level, and we've got all we need. Our ranks are now Bluff 6, Decipher Script 6, Diplomacy 7, Gather Information 7, Knowledge (Arcana, religion) 8, Knowledge (Nature) 7, Knowledge (The Planes) 5, Listen 8, Perform (String Instruments) 8, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sleight of Hand 7, Spellcraft 6.
Level 6
Bard 5 - Leadership. Get a cohort (Anything, really. I'd recommend the same build as you. Or perhaps a bodyguard.) and a bunch of followers. Make one of the followers be a druid and have him teach you Druidic. This will turn him into an useless ex-Druid, so have him trigger the next best trap and get a new one. Since our leadership score (9) won't allow for followers yet, we'll buy a Cloak of Charisma +2 in order to get it to 10. As for skills, we continue maxxing Knowledge (Arcana), Listen, and Perform. We'll put two more ranks into Spellcraft in order to meet the Ur-Priest prerequisites, as well as a rank into speak language for Druidic. Four skill points go into Sense Motive, and the last two into pretty much anything. This level will be rebuilt later into Chameleon, losing us two skill points. Guess which ones will have to go.
Level 7
Bard 6 - We keep maxxing Knowledge (Arcana), Listen, and Perform. The remaining 8 points go into Disguise. Two of these will be lost when we rebuild this level into Chameleon. Somewhen within this level, if in an ongoing campaign that started before level 8, we rebuild our Int down to 14 (and buy a Headband of Intelligence +2 to enable 3rd-level chameleon casting, note that the spells per day is 0, so we need an Int bonus of +3 to be able to cast 3rd-level spells) and our Wis up to 17.
Level 8
Bard 7 - Another Stat increase to Cha. This is the last level of Bard we need to qualify for Sublime Chord's casting prerequisite. We continue maxxing Arcana, isten, and Perform, four points into Disguise, and the rest doesn't matter.
Level 9
Cleric 1 - Open feat slot. This level is just to qualify for Ur-Priest's Fort save requirement, really. Clerics only get 2+Int skill points, but thanks to the extra skill point from being human and out +2 Int modifier we can still keep all three relevant skills maxxed. If you have been paying attention until now, you know what those are.
Level 10
Ur-Priest 1 - Now the brokenness begins. At this level, we have reached all prerequistites for all classes we are going to take. We max the big three, and starting next level, we a) have absolute leeway with skill points, and more importantly, b) we stop sucking ass and instead start kicking said ass. This is also when we buy a Ring of Evasion in order to meet the pesky evasion prereq.
Level 11
Sublime Chord 1 - The moment (or rather, level) of truth. We now rebuild three bard levels (Since the entry specifically says "rounded up", we can rebuild three class leves instead of two even though 11/5 is only 2.2) into Chameleon. Since we still have 4 Bard levels left, we meet the bardic music prereq of Sublime chord and the bardic knowledge prereq of Fochlucan lyrist, so we're good. Chameleon oses us 2 skill points per level, but we wisely put extra ranks in Disguise, so we're good from that perspective too. This should go without saying, but we apply the CL increase of FL to Sublime Chord Spells, not bard spells. We can now cast 5th level arcane and 1st level divine spells.
Level 12
Fochlucan Lyrist 1 - Open Feat slot. We put the ability bonus into Wis. Now we rebuild three more Bard levels into Fochlucan Lyrist, leaving us with one as a safety cushion for reasons explained in my previous post. We now cast 7th level arcane and 5th level divine spells.
Level 13
Fochlucan Lyrist 5 - If the DM says we don't need Bard levels for Sublime Chord's Music and Knowledge progression to advance (and hasn't murdered us brutally yet), we can rebuild the Bard level into another FL level, giving us 8th level Arcane and 7th level divine spells. Investing in Tomes is a good idea, since we want to be able to cast all our spells without fear of having that ability stolen.
Level 14
Fochlucan Lyrist 6 or 7 - Depending on how the DM rules SC's Music and Knowledge progression to work, we now have either 8th level arcane and 7th level divine casting (if we need a level of Bard) or 8th level arcane and divine casting (if we don't). In the former case, the next two levels are in FL, and after that it's whatever the heck we want. In the latter case, the next level is FL, and after that it's whatever the heck we want. If we're worried about losing our Ring of Evasion and pretty much all our Win along with it, we can take two levels in Rogue, Monk, or Survivor (those three are the easiest to get in). I'd go with Survivor since it also gives us three good saves and Uncanny Dodge in two levels, as opposed to Rogues Trapfinding and Sneak Attack +1d6, and the Monk... *shudder* Monk and Rogue would only net us 1 BAB over Survivor, and we have more spells per day than we have hit points, so why would we be making atacks other than touch attacks? We can't rebuild the Cleric level until we have the 8th level of FL, since otherwise we wouldn't meet the Fort base save prerequisite for Ur-Priest anymore, so I'd say we just rebuild it into Survivor.

Summary


We get 9th level spells from two awesome lists and one okay list, as well as 3rd level spells from any list we want - at level 16 (15 for non-bards), when we're supposed to have access to 8th level spells from a single list. The final build is as follows:
Factotum 1/Bard 1/Cleric 1/Ur-Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Chameleon 3/Fochlucan Lyrist 8 or
Factotum 1/Cleric 1/Ur-Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Chameleon 3/Fochlucan Lyrist 8
Feats: Able Learner, Iron Will, Spell Focus (Evil), Leadership, Open slot, Open slot, Open slot

The build can, of course, be done without Factotum. I simply went with it in order to go easy on what little is left of my sanity.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 12:47:06 AM by Agita »
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

Agita's Awesome Poster Compilation
Lycanthromancer's Awesome Poster Compilation

Bert

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 13
    • Email
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2008, 01:29:24 AM »
Can you have levels in Ur-Priest while you have levels in Cleric?

Agita

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5465
  • SFT is mai waifu.
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2008, 08:14:11 AM »
Can you have levels in Ur-Priest while you have levels in Cleric?
Of course. You just need to give up your spellcasting from cleric (which is why I suggest swapping it out for rogue and taking a level of rogue at 14).
We'll need another level in Fochlucan Lyrist before we swap the cleric level out though, since otherwise we wouldn't meet the base Fort save requirement anymore.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2008, 10:04:42 AM by Agita »
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

Agita's Awesome Poster Compilation
Lycanthromancer's Awesome Poster Compilation

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: The "Rebuilding" Handbook
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2008, 12:47:10 PM »
A DM might frown on making a cohort teach you Druidic. You are better off convincing another party member to go thrallherd and picking up a druid thrall, who is more likely to co-operate.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]