Author Topic: Balancing 3.5  (Read 188277 times)

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Ubernoob

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Re: Duel of Wits
« Reply #160 on: August 16, 2008, 03:39:40 AM »
Quote from: aftercrescent
Either challenge Bier to a Duel of Wits or Shut it.
And other red stuff...
Okay, okay I'm just gonna officially ignore the guy but its hard because there's no ignore function.

Something I've been thinking is after reading OWA's Paladin, its extemely lazy of us to say "Play warblade insted of fighter" I have a fighter fix somewhere that SquirrelLord made that isn't a re-write but more an add on, barring that we should use the zhentarim soilder and the Generic warrior for a base of what fighter needs to be.
The generic everyman/ fully customizeable.
The full bab classes in core... don't work.  Even with heavy optimization you're still a caster's ho.  What we need to do is either:
A) Get rid of all the standard action save or lose type stuff.  I don't like this.
B) Let warriors have a standard action have AC or lose.  Of course, this is a pretty massive makeover.  We'd need things like:
1) Full attack as a standard action.
2) Scaling bonuses to damage.
3) Iteratives.  No penalty larger than -5.  We need to stay on the RNG or else it aint worth the time to roll the d20.

Yeah, I'm stealing shit from races of war.  Get over it.  When I see a good idea I'm liable to repeat it.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #161 on: August 16, 2008, 03:44:17 AM »
Dude you and I have always been on the same page...
Ironically here's the fix it was for Paizo but its what I use... or something like cause I didn't go with the skills,
I have a dfferent thought.

 SquirrelLord's Fighter
Design Statement
The fighter should be a tactical battlefield commander who can control the flow of combat. Unlike the barbarian, he excels through skill and tactics, not just by repeatedly hitting it with a big weapon. And while he's capable of dealing some punishing blows, his bigger contribution to the party is controlling when and where a monster strikes.
Notes:
Abilities which aren't described below are exactly as described in 3.P.0.3.
Some inspiration was gained from the Races of War fighter by K and Frank Trollman. However, the world is apparently unready for that, and what inspiration was gained has been toned down quite a bit. But credit where credit is due, and those familiar with Races of War will surely recognize the source of some abilities.
This is a draft and isn't yet playtested extensively.
The Fighter
"I've seen this type of Xornling rush before, its a distraction, and the real threat will come from the skies"
1 Bonus Feat
2 Bonus Feat, Bravery(taken from paizo)
3 Surprise Lunge, Armor Training
4 Bonus Feat
5 Expert Defender, Weapon Training
6 Bonus Feat
7 Parry, Armor Training
8 Bonus Feat
9 Rapid Reactions, Weapon Training
10 Bonus Feat
11 Tactical Genius, Armor Training
12 Bonus Feat
13 Perfect Moment, Weapon Training
14 Bonus Feat
15 Ranged Parry, Armor Training
16 Bonus Feat
17 Stunning Combo, Weapon Training
18 Bonus Feat
19 Armor Mastery
20 Bonus Feat, Weapon Mastery
Skills: 6+int mod/level. Add Knowledge(Dungeoneering), Knowledge(Geography), Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty), Perception, Acrobatics, and Diplomacy
Surprise Lunge (ex): As an immediate action the Fighter may treat his threatened area as 5' farther than usual, and any interrupted action which would then trigger an attack of opportunity does so. The fighter moves 5' such that the creature now triggering this AoO would be within his normal threat range, and then resolves the attack of opportunity. His threatened area then returns to normal.
Expert Defender (ex): All squares the fighter threatens are treated as difficult terrain by enemy creatures.
Parry (ex): As an immediate action a fighter may make an attack against any creature he threatens in response to an action they are about to take. If he deals damage with this attack that action is thwarted and lost.
Rapid Reactions (ex): Whenever the fighter gets an attack of opportunity he may also take a 5' step either before or after making the AoO.
Tactical Genius (ex): The fighter receives an extra immediate action each turn.
Perfect Moment (ex): The fighter can take a full round action as a readied action.
Ranged Parry (ex): The fighter may Parry against any creature within 30' so long as he has a ranged weapon in or immediately at hand (drawing a thrown weapon from a belt is ok, stringing your bow is not). In all other respects this ability works exactly like Parry. The creature must be within range when it starts the action - entering range after the action is started doesn't allow the use of this ability.
Stunning Combo (ex): Whenever the fighter successfully deals damage with an attack of opportunity he may also immediately perform a combat maneuver of his choice against the same opponent. The Fighter gains a +4 bonus on this maneuver due to surprise.
Armor Mastery (ex): as 3.P.0.3 except the fighter gains DR 10/-
Weapon Mastery (ex): When wielding a weapon that belongs to a group with which he has weapon training the fighter may take a full-round action as a standard action. In return he loses the benefit of Tactical Genius until the start of his next turn.[/b] [/quote]

« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 03:49:34 AM by Midnight_v »
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Shadowhowler

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #162 on: August 16, 2008, 03:49:04 AM »


I'm just gonna disagree with you in general. Ultimately to a point its like what ubernoob said in my book.
  Its in-fucking-feasible to me that someone would spend that much time and OMFG EXPERIENCE
(which exists and doesn't exist in the story mode sense considering its been described both as an abstraction and some kind of destiny force that the more of it you get the more the "story/universe" bends to keep you alive). If they do make somekind of +10 sword it will be for a good reason but most likely it'll be something that they can do themselves or have a surefire way to retrieve it. No ones selling stuff like that, cause money doesn't matter that much in the game. Unless they're somehow being forced to do it, by more powerful magus or whatever to keep them in check. . .



 
 
Meh.  :review  File it under 'Agree to Dissagree' then. It comes down to playstyle, for the most part. Differant poeple want differant things from the game and their gaming experince... and have differant ways of going about it.
 
For me, I think the time inovolved in crafting magic items makes perfect sense... tho I agree a mechanic dealing with the feats and exp differantly might be desrable. However, I would not want to see any sort of 'Poof! It's done!' sort of system for making magic items. I also would not want to see a system where making a +1 item takes the same time as a +5 item. I like that the more powerfull it is, the longer it takes to make. I dissagree with some people's opinions on the whole 'No one would spend that much time making something just for money' argument, but I don't expect anyone to be 'swayed' to my line of thinking on it. Again, playstyle.
 
I'll leave the 'magic item creation time' topic alone for a bit then... as I've given my opinion and others have given theirs... and await a new part of this thread to address. :)

Shadowhowler

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #163 on: August 16, 2008, 03:51:34 AM »
Quote tags aren't that hard to work.  It took me ten minutes to fix something that would No... you level up when you have the xp required to level up.  There is nothing printed that allows you to "delay" leveling up.  If you're talking about a RAW scroll of Wish, well yeah.  That's what people do.  But with the houserule of having the target pay 5k xp per point of inherent bonus that won't work.
There's nothing printed that "makes" you level up either.  It's happened before where crafters get enough XP to level, but rather than do so, they use that XP to make things. You get to level up when you have enough XP, you aren't forced to level. The actual act of leveling isn't really handled by the mechanics well, since it can be cRPG style where it's instant, or a slower thing, where you have to train for weeks to do so. It's also not unheard of for a character to wait to level up until he can get back to town and buy those gloves of dex +2 so he can take that feat he needs. It happens, and it's allowed.

 
 
I never gave much thought to this... but now that you mention it, I can't help but think of when I played KotOR and I would purpassly NOT level up... so I could level up as a jedi later. Funky.

Midnight_v

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #164 on: August 16, 2008, 03:52:56 AM »
Cool, Totally reasonable. :)
Well I've brought up Evocation (and no I wasn't fixating on Meteor shower I meant all evoc in general) and now fighting.

Recently, I've been thinking that the fighter should be replaced to an extent with the generic warrior...
Same feat progression, + Zhentarim soilder substitution levels.
Plus availability of all feats (even the generics go to the srd).
4 x int skills
All skills are class skills...(or rather all skills taken individual)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 03:57:36 AM by Midnight_v »
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Shadowhowler

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #165 on: August 16, 2008, 03:58:57 AM »

The Fighter
"I've seen this type of Xornling rush before, its a distraction, and the real threat will come from the skies"
1 Bonus Feat
2 Bonus Feat, Bravery(taken from paizo)
3 Surprise Lunge, Armor Training
4 Bonus Feat
5 Expert Defender, Weapon Training
6 Bonus Feat
7 Parry, Armor Training
8 Bonus Feat
9 Rapid Reactions, Weapon Training
10 Bonus Feat
11 Tactical Genius, Armor Training
12 Bonus Feat
13 Perfect Moment, Weapon Training
14 Bonus Feat
15 Ranged Parry, Armor Training
16 Bonus Feat
17 Stunning Combo, Weapon Training
18 Bonus Feat
19 Armor Mastery
20 Bonus Feat, Weapon Mastery
Skills: 6+int mod/level. Add Knowledge(Dungeoneering), Knowledge(Geography), Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty), Perception, Acrobatics, and Diplomacy
Surprise Lunge (ex): As an immediate action the Fighter may treat his threatened area as 5' farther than usual, and any interrupted action which would then trigger an attack of opportunity does so. The fighter moves 5' such that the creature now triggering this AoO would be within his normal threat range, and then resolves the attack of opportunity. His threatened area then returns to normal.
Expert Defender (ex): All squares the fighter threatens are treated as difficult terrain by enemy creatures.
Parry (ex): As an immediate action a fighter may make an attack against any creature he threatens in response to an action they are about to take. If he deals damage with this attack that action is thwarted and lost.
Rapid Reactions (ex): Whenever the fighter gets an attack of opportunity he may also take a 5' step either before or after making the AoO.
Tactical Genius (ex): The fighter receives an extra immediate action each turn.
Perfect Moment (ex): The fighter can take a full round action as a readied action.
Ranged Parry (ex): The fighter may Parry against any creature within 30' so long as he has a ranged weapon in or immediately at hand (drawing a thrown weapon from a belt is ok, stringing your bow is not). In all other respects this ability works exactly like Parry. The creature must be within range when it starts the action - entering range after the action is started doesn't allow the use of this ability.
Stunning Combo (ex): Whenever the fighter successfully deals damage with an attack of opportunity he may also immediately perform a combat maneuver of his choice against the same opponent. The Fighter gains a +4 bonus on this maneuver due to surprise.
Armor Mastery (ex): as 3.P.0.3 except the fighter gains DR 10/-
Weapon Mastery (ex): When wielding a weapon that belongs to a group with which he has weapon training the fighter may take a full-round action as a standard action. In return he loses the benefit of Tactical Genius until the start of his next turn.[/b]



 
 
Interesting. The only things I worry about are the Parry and Ranged Parry. I'm unsure about those, in play they may become too powerfull... especialy combined with the extra immediate action.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 04:00:37 AM by Shadowhowler »

Midnight_v

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #166 on: August 16, 2008, 04:06:07 AM »
Well were shooting for tier 3 or 4 and that means the fighter has to be as good or slightly better than:
The:
Warblade
Crusader
Swordsage
Dreadnecro/beguiler
Duskblade
...other strong stuff...
In general it fits except remeber it was for paizo so some of it has tobe reworked but the not the actions thing. Fighters need action because now thats what the game is about economy of actions...
Give them imm actions with nothing to do? = Loss...
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Shadowhowler

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #167 on: August 16, 2008, 04:06:15 AM »

On Blasting.
Fix 1
I suggest making blasting spells better by adding an additional effect onto the spells that are made independent of the save to avoid.
  I first experimented on this making a pc for a group I was dm'ing, it was based on Mr.Scary Battle soceror.
Well basically I added dreadful wrath and fell frighten to a soceror in my group figured up some free metamagic and viola' a blaster that was actually worth something without doubling the amount of damage he was doing.
  He shot a lot of terrifying magic missles in the end, but its was cool and effective, and there were a few terrifying fireballs as well. He wanted to then take ...uhm.. spell thematics, but I just gave him the ability for free (he just wanted to shape the missles into little screaming skulls...so you know whatever)
  Second time was someone wanting to play a wu-jen water mage? Based on a game call 99 nights and they were seriously undisuadeable...they weren't feeling much ice or reflavoring either....
So I gound like I think its a "steam" spell for wu-jen in the Complete mage, and used scupt and explosive spell to add a knockback effect and extra-damage on failed saves. From that I infered a lot could be done from there, the orb spells were pointed out as generally being the same thing so from there I was rolling with the idea..
  In this version we assign as status effect to spells that are now only direct damage. Since we're redesigning a bit let me suggest that some spells get multiple effects something like 1 effect per 3 spell levels.
So 0-2nd get (0), 3rd -5th get (1) 6-8 get (2), and finally 9th level spells get (3), This may work best balance wise for evocation specialists only.
Here's a snapshot.
Fireball (same as srd)
Requires an additional reflex save or be knocked prone and moved to the edge of the spell area. Attended items are not damaged by this secondary effect.

Cone Of cold: as Srd
Req: reflex save or fall prone (slippery ground)
Req: Fort save or stunned for one round.

Metorshower: Same as Srd,
Requires a Will save or be Dazed for one round
Requres a Fort save or be Knocked prone for one round
Requires a reflex save or be blinded for one round.

Before something foolish gets said realize those are completly arbitrary at this point but thats the general idea. Evocation made possible. . .
Thoughts...
Other than Fael... :eh
 


 
I actualy REALLY like the direction your taking with this. I like the idea of most if not all of the damage spells having a 'side effect' or some sort... something useful but not overpowering in addition to the damage. I've ofoten found when I play Arcane caster... when I DO use Direct Damage spells, I really like the ones that have some addition side effect.
 
I think something like this across the board for DD spells, in addition to some tweaking of the major spell offenders (Like Robby's idea for Planner Binding and whatnot) would bring some balance to casters. (at least arcane ones) Would be a lot of work tho... almost a 'spell by spell' treatment.

Shadowhowler

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #168 on: August 16, 2008, 04:09:37 AM »
Well were shooting for tier 3 or 4 and that means the fighter has to be as good or slightly better than:
The:
Warblade
Crusader
Swordsage
Dreadnecro/beguiler
Duskblade
...other strong stuff...
In general it fits except remeber it was for paizo so some of it has tobe reworked but the not the actions thing. Fighters need action because now thats what the game is about economy of actions...
Give them imm actions with nothing to do? = Loss...

 
 
Very true. Melee classes really did get shafted with swift and immedate actions... while casters used them like arcane sterroids for newfound uberness.
 
I'm not sure the Parry/Ranged Parry would end up being over the top in play... those are just the only parts of it that cought my eye as having the potential to go overboard. I'd have to experince it in play to be sure. Also... I suspect by themselves the parry stuff is fine... but I KNOW someone would find a way to break it into a 1,000 peices somehow.

Bier

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #169 on: August 16, 2008, 04:17:14 AM »
Quote tags aren't that hard to work.  It took me ten minutes to fix something that would have taken you two to prevent.  Part of being respected on the internet is not making extra work for other people to communicate with you.

Triple level quotes on quotes don't make it easier for anyone on this forum.



Either we make it so that the function works or we make it not needed.  Those are the only things you can do about mechanics that don't work.  You only cut something out if you can't find a mechanic that works in that spot or find a mechanic that makes the other obsolete.  Ignoring a problem does nothing.


Again, a non-answer?  i have no idea what you are trying to get out.


You are utterly mistaken.  Spending 200 days making a sword is a guaranteed paycheck for 200 days straight.  It's no different then making 200 Swords+1, day after day...except you work on one sword, not 200 of them.
NPC crafters do it as a job.  how THEY get the xp is superfluous, they have it and can obviously spend it.



Except that there are ways that are less time intensive to get the exact same gp to xp ratio.  Like, dozens.  For instance just lower gp cost items.  More people can buy them so the paycheck has a much quicker return for the exact same cost.  This is not even dipping into things like wall of iron or planar binding.  Spellcasters have better things to do with their time than convert xp to gp at a 1:5 ratio for a constant rate of 500 gp a day.  Just ignoring the xp costs, crafting only yields 500 gp per day.  That's no reason for someone to be making something they don't intend to use themselves for a long ass time.


Except he has to be PAID to cast those spells and make those items, and there's absolutely no guarantee that anyone is going to come along and do that for him.  a 200K gp payday is better then no payday, and it's better then having 200 different items to work on...he always gets up in the morning and knows he can make 500 gp.  It's a lot better then hanging around hoping for a casting job or another casting job which may not come.


Except the core should work.  You shouldn't have to pay for a splatbook to make a mechanic work.  It should work the first time.  Supplements should be supplemental.

And yet everyone keeps quoting them all the time, because we look forwards and backwards for the good and bad stuff.  So, they get included in fixes.

No.  That would be limited wish.  The spell without the steep xp cost.  If a spell's function is never used that function does not exist.  This applies to everything in RAW wish except for the inherent bonuses.


Disagree. Wish is plenty more powerful.  If you don't see it in games spammed all the time, that might very well mean Limited Wish is too cheap for what it does.


There is no such thing as wish abuse.  No such thing.  I've NEVER heard a complaint about wish or miracle being too powerful.  Only gate and shapechange have ever gotten that complaint to my ears when it comes to 9ths in Core.

The xp cost is the only thing that prevents it.  As soon as you can obviate it, Wish becomes massively overpowered.  That's why Efreeti spamming, etc, needs to be hosed.


Again, clarify what you mean.  Still getting gibberish on my end.  Part of communication on the internet is clearly stating what you intend to say.


If that isn't clear enough for you, it's not my fault.  Go look at how magic items go up in price vs how inherents do.  I'm not going to explain simple addition vs multiplication to you.


Well, there is a WBL table.  Sunder breaks that, so we'll be fixing the sunder mechanic.  As for dispells, you need a targeted dispel on the item, so that rarely comes into play.  So, your point here is pretty moot.


Dispels also dispel spells, include 'permanent' spells, and anti-magic shells do, too.  None have any effect on inherents.  That's a VERY powerful thing.


No... you level up when you have the xp required to level up.  There is nothing printed that allows you to "delay" leveling up.  If you're talking about a RAW scroll of Wish, well yeah.  That's what people do.  But with the houserule of having the target pay 5k xp per point of inherent bonus that won't work.


As noted, you are mistaken on the accumulated xp.


People don't give a shit about him getting all the crafting feats.  They care that he gets:
Free money (craft reserve)
The abiliity to apply really cheap metamagic (sunic could tell you how, an infusion, a wand, and a class ability allow artificers to persist divine power from a wand pretty cheaply)


Yesssssss...which is why he is overpowered. I was AGREEING with you over the need to collapse down creation feats or hand them out more easily, and, as I said, no one cares that the artificer gets all the Item Creation feats.  Could you please stop taking me out of context abnd being argumentative when you are AGREEING with me?


Know where a kid tells his teacher, "No, you tell me what the answer is"?  Yeah, you just did that.

Know where you are throwing out irrelevant sentences because you don't have anything to say? Yeah, you just did that.
How about a positive contribution instead, mm?  I'm not Sunic...I don't get threads closed with my flaming replies.  Be nice and I'm nice.




See above on making it make sense for expensive items to be created and actually leave the crafter's hands.

It's not so simple.  magical economy fixing never is.  And since we never have to worry how NPC's get their xp to make items, its a moot point.


Note the word 'ranks'.


Note that Skill checks do NOT work that way.  Skill checks use DC's.  If you are now proposing to overhaul the entire skill mechanic system, that is a completely seperate argument, once again, and you need to state that.  And the skill DC check system, because of the ability to layer bonuses and how easy they are to get, is always ready to be borked.

I've advocated ranks being prequalifiers for skills/abilities for some time.  DC's and bonuses just help with contested checks and getting stuff done faster if you go that route, and casters can't step on the toes of skill monkeys, because ranks are more important then the bonuses you get.


============

As for other classes getting magic item creation stuff, Melees can take Ancestral Weapon/relic (former is OA, latter expands it to more then weapons).  Other then that...do non-casters really need more, thematically, then the ability to define their own primary toy?  Not really.  Magewrights can make toys if need be, if you want low magic.  They are an excellent addition to the NPC classes.

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« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 04:24:52 AM by Bier »

Midnight_v

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #170 on: August 16, 2008, 04:25:29 AM »
Well were shooting for tier 3 or 4 and that means the fighter has to be as good or slightly better than:
The:
Warblade
Crusader
Swordsage
Dreadnecro/beguiler
Duskblade
...other strong stuff...
In general it fits except remeber it was for paizo so some of it has tobe reworked but the not the actions thing. Fighters need action because now thats what the game is about economy of actions...
Give them imm actions with nothing to do? = Loss...

 
 
Very true. Melee classes really did get shafted with swift and immedate actions... while casters used them like arcane sterroids for newfound uberness.
 
I'm not sure the Parry/Ranged Parry would end up being over the top in play... those are just the only parts of it that cought my eye as having the potential to go overboard. I'd have to experince it in play to be sure. Also... I suspect by themselves the parry stuff is fine... but I KNOW someone would find a way to break it into a 1,000 peices somehow.
It won't be worse than the Tob tricks/builds compendium. Stormguard Warrior/ Shadow pouncer.
We have to accept that someone will be able to break something somewhere. As long as We've made it play able and not ambiantly broken or overall broken. I feel you though. hmm...
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Bier

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #171 on: August 16, 2008, 04:32:01 AM »
Well were shooting for tier 3 or 4 and that means the fighter has to be as good or slightly better than:
The:
Warblade
Crusader
Swordsage
Dreadnecro/beguiler
Duskblade
...other strong stuff...
In general it fits except remeber it was for paizo so some of it has tobe reworked but the not the actions thing. Fighters need action because now thats what the game is about economy of actions...
Give them imm actions with nothing to do? = Loss...

 
 
Very true. Melee classes really did get shafted with swift and immedate actions... while casters used them like arcane sterroids for newfound uberness.
 
I'm not sure the Parry/Ranged Parry would end up being over the top in play... those are just the only parts of it that cought my eye as having the potential to go overboard. I'd have to experince it in play to be sure. Also... I suspect by themselves the parry stuff is fine... but I KNOW someone would find a way to break it into a 1,000 peices somehow.

Melee in Core got shafted because these actions didn't exist at the time those classes were made.  Casters got the benefit because they came out with new spells, and 9 Swords because of new manuvers.  They never bothered to update the core feats to the later standards of actually being usable, and included precious few that use actions.

Not a bad Fighter fix...29 feat equivalents still falls a bit short of the 43 for the Warblade, but the 6 skill points made me goggle a bit to look at it.

As for the other melee fixes:

Pounce should never be an option for Melees...either all melee should have it (preferred) or none of them.

Full attacks as standard actions are NOT broken.  In fact, you get them in 4e, disguised as weapon dmg increases, and you got them in 1E and 2E.  Not getting their multiple attacks all the time is one of the things that hurts melee the most.

Scaling bonus to damage works fine...as long as you restrict the amount of melee damage that other classes can do, and don't go hog wild on the melee end, either.  Barbarians have perfect scaling dmg, and the weapon spec tree is pretty much excellent dmg scaling...but so is Divine Power+Divine Favor, intruding right in on the Melee Shtick.

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #172 on: August 16, 2008, 05:12:00 AM »
I'm undecided on the skill points on whether 6 or 8 should be better. 

However, what are the saves?  It is my opinion that fighters should harken back to previous editions and have the best saves in the game.  In 3.5 terms, fighters really should have all three good saves.
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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #173 on: August 16, 2008, 12:31:31 PM »
Sunic: Ael actually has a somewhat relevant point. A magic weapon increases in price as the bonus increases, and not linearly. A +1 weapon is 2,000 and a +5 weapon is 50,000. Compare it to insight bonuses to stats. Each +1 increase is 27,500gp. And it scales linearly. The linear price scaling is the reason they don't stack.

Also, you seem stuck on the example of Meteor Swarm. I get the feeling it was thrown out as an example. And yeah, it sucks and could be given a boost. But under that same logic, many of the 9th level spells need to be tuned DOWN. Drastically.

First, the Meteor Swarm bit was in response to someone suggesting we discuss ways to make it not suck. Which I did.

He got the numbers flat out wrong.

+1: 2,000.
+2: +6,000.
+3: +10,000.
+4: +14,000.
+5: +18,000.
+6: +22,000.
+7: +26,000.
+8: +30,000.
+9: +34,000.
+10: +38,000.

Those are the correct numbers for a weapon.

For an 'inherent bonuses scale linearly, enhancement bonuses scale quadratically' example to be valid, one of the following must be true:

1: Enhancement bonuses scale at a flat 20k per +.
2: Inherent bonuses scale like 5.5k/22k/49.5k/88k/137.5k instead of a flat 27.5k each. And to convert that into XP instead of gold, just divide everything by 5.

Since neither of the above are true, his argument is invalid.

Further, I've already gotten done attacking him a while ago and he's apparently done even replying to me, so you're a bit too late in telling me to stop attacking him. As stated in the other thread, I'm not going to toss down the gauntlet unless he attacks me again.

With that said, allowing them to stack just cuts down on metagame tedium. Anything that is within the game that brings you out of the game is undesirable and needs to be fixed. Since the only effect of allowing them to stack up to the normal +5 is that you don't have to chain Wish 5 times in 5 consecutive rounds and can spread it out a bit... Well who cares, ya know?
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And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Ubernoob

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #174 on: August 16, 2008, 02:25:14 PM »
OK, faelryinth.  Instead of hitting the quote button and deleting all the quote tags just don't delete the quote tags.  When you want to make a point you do it like this:
[/quote.]
Point
[quote.]
Just delete the period inside that quote tag.
I can't believe I'm having to teach you something my 9 year old little sister figured out on her own.

Now, onto business:
Quote from: Faelryinth
You are utterly mistaken.  Spending 200 days making a sword is a guaranteed paycheck for 200 days straight.  It's no different then making 200 Swords+1, day after day...except you work on one sword, not 200 of them.
NPC crafters do it as a job.  how THEY get the xp is superfluous, they have it and can obviously spend it.
Honestly?  You'd rather have a 200 dollar bill than 20 ten dollar bills?  You literally cannot spend that 200 dollar bill in some places becuase they cannot give you change.  There is no incentive in the printed crafting rules to make high end items for someone other than yourself.  It's not that hard to understand.
Quote from: Faelryinth
And yet everyone keeps quoting them all the time, because we look forwards and backwards for the good and bad stuff.  So, they get included in fixes.
And that gives us an excuse to leave the core rules sucky how?  That's lazy design.  Real men fix the problem at the root.
Quote from: Faelryinth
Disagree. Wish is plenty more powerful.  If you don't see it in games spammed all the time, that might very well mean Limited Wish is too cheap for what it does.
This is what you are.  This is what you're argueing against.  When we say something is too weak or too strong take our words for it.  Unlike you, we actually take the time to understand things before blanket banning them.
Quote from: Faelryinth
The xp cost is the only thing that prevents it.  As soon as you can obviate it, Wish becomes massively overpowered.  That's why Efreeti spamming, etc, needs to be hosed.
You do realize that planar binding is the broken spell here, not wish, right?
Quote from: Faelryinth
Dispels also dispel spells, include 'permanent' spells, and anti-magic shells do, too.  None have any effect on inherents.  That's a VERY powerful thing.
That's only slightly better than using supernatural spell on bull's strength.  It's pretty damn laughable.  Before you debate this read those links.
Quote from: Faelryinth
Yesssssss...which is why he is overpowered. I was AGREEING with you over the need to collapse down creation feats or hand them out more easily, and, as I said, no one cares that the artificer gets all the Item Creation feats.  Could you please stop taking me out of context abnd being argumentative when you are AGREEING with me?
I could, but that would mean I'd have to be able to track what you were saying.  Like, by not having you break the quote tags.  Y'know effective communication skills.  You should get some.
Quote from: Faelryinth
Know where you are throwing out irrelevant sentences because you don't have anything to say? Yeah, you just did that.
How about a positive contribution instead, mm?  I'm not Sunic...I don't get threads closed with my flaming replies.  Be nice and I'm nice.
See above about effective communication.
Quote from: Faelryinth
It's not so simple.  magical economy fixing never is.  And since we never have to worry how NPC's get their xp to make items, its a moot point.
Magic tea party has no place in this discussion.  None whatsoever.
Quote from: Faelryinth
Note that Skill checks do NOT work that way.  Skill checks use DC's.  If you are now proposing to overhaul the entire skill mechanic system, that is a completely seperate argument, once again, and you need to state that.  And the skill DC check system, because of the ability to layer bonuses and how easy they are to get, is always ready to be borked.

I've advocated ranks being prequalifiers for skills/abilities for some time.  DC's and bonuses just help with contested checks and getting stuff done faster if you go that route, and casters can't step on the toes of skill monkeys, because ranks are more important then the bonuses you get.
Please read the thread before replying.  This is getting kind of sad.  If you don't know what skill ranks are, just open up your PHB and look it up.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #175 on: August 16, 2008, 03:54:43 PM »
I'm undecided on the skill points on whether 6 or 8 should be better. 

However, what are the saves?  It is my opinion that fighters should harken back to previous editions and have the best saves in the game.  In 3.5 terms, fighters really should have all three good saves.

  Yeah, actually that's a holdover, I just chose that as the fighter that I like the best when 3.5-4.0 happened.
I took One winged angel paladin which was truly inspiring for me as in "These classes can be fixed".
  Honestly, I think the correct skills is 4 X int.
 
I have to do a re-write slightly of what SQL has proposed, the above fighter, is largely the correct fighter.
  I've had 2 people even to this day as recently as a week or two ago flatout refuse to use the ToB stuff, thier resoning? "I don't want my fighters to feel "magic-y/or anime" ... I almost went bat-shit crazy when they said that but... they're my friends and really its not thier fault really they're grognards we've all been playing all thier lives so its natural to resist change.
So I searched for a fixed version of the fighter and SquirrelLord mad this for paizos fighter and I was thourougly impressed.  Even it was made based upon K & Franks Tome series.
Which aside from being balace had some of the best fluff I'd ever seen "Sahaugin rule the word....most of it"

In anycase oddly since that was made for paizo's system it was actually intended to have 3 extra feats. Further bravery is thiers... too. . .  I think though that you can take bravery and make it into a choice between bravery and uhm.. lets say agility...

Quote
Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1
bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by
+1 for every four levels beyond 2nd, to a maximum of +5 at
18th level.
(Change the Name to "Grit" or "Willpower" and make it a blanket bonus to will saves)

Then we'll expand a bit and fighter may also have the option to take this instead.

Agility (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1
bonus on reflex saves. This bonus increases by
+1 for every four levels beyond 2nd, to a maximum of +5 at
18th level.
This may consitute a full re-write *shrug* But I also think the other thing works too.. I'll repost it in a sec.
Or maybe someone can doll it up a bit. 
Either way I think the fighter should have "All skills are class skills for the fighter." I mean since thats already out of the bag with factotum and the fighters some kind of "everyman from the Kings Champion to the Pit gladiator" No small set of skills will suffice really to much variance.

*Bier*
  :rolleyes *sigh* Okay I'm gonna respond to one thing you said and give you the benefit that you may be suffering from bad propaganda but the second you bold quote me, we stop being civil, Deal? I'm not even gonna call you fael.
Look pounce is already for every melee class, thier answer was to make it a level one barbarian dip, allow for the channeling of spell (duskblade) and give higher damage standard action attacks (Martial Manuevers) I think we had this conversation before too... Pounce is another thing already out of the bag.
We're not getting rid of Shock trooper the feat no matter what, because not everyone wants a pc to have to jimmy the power attack to work.  I know you hate chargers and I've heard you attack that before so. Meh.
What else.
I would like to simply see the tactics that work left alone and the ones that don't expanded upon. For melee.
I like the fix above for the complete warrior samurai.
Give him the melee weapons master bit, I also think they should retain that ancestral daisho bit.

Barbarian... pounce could have been added at level 6 with out taking anything, it's at level one to givepounce to bot fighters and brbs The devs know that those are dip classed cause only melee  really dips. Fighter 2/ Is often followed by barb 2...
more on that soon. food run. M_v
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 08:26:23 AM by Midnight_v »
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Bier

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #176 on: August 16, 2008, 07:38:09 PM »
I dunno who Uber Noob is responding to, so Whenever he gets around to actually answering me, I'll do likewise.


Midnight:

Call me fael and I won't answer you.  It's a baiting attempt from Sunic, and iust one of the things that got his account banned TEN TIMES as the worst troll in years on the WotC boards (I counted).  I don't reply to it at all...it's not my name.

The ability of a charger to one hit any foe of equal CR, including rival characters, for the low, low price of four feats, does not make Charger builds balanced 'because they can now do what mages do.'  It's not an argument.  'One hits' by mages aren't balanced, either, especially repeatable ones.

Pounce is not available as a low level feat, which would put it into the Fighter arena and make it accessible to any general melee build.  Requiring someone to dip classes to pick up an ability that should be germane to all core Melee classes is not a good defense of it.  It's like requiring all arcane casters to have Read magic, but you can only get it by taking a level of Wizard.  Essential to the proper function of the class, but not IN the class?  It's just not right.


Shock Trooper wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the methods in which damage stacks and is multiplied.  Take away charge multipliers with weapons, double Power attack with TH weapons, and the effects of Valorous, and Shock Trooper is just a nice way of hitting someone and getting slammed back in return.  You dish it out, and you take it.  With things as they are now, the 'sacrifice' aspect is lost entirely.  Heck, with Wall of Blades, the sacrifice to AC becomes entirely moot for at least the first reprisal attack...

Keep it the way it is, and it's endless one shots...you give up nothing for the auto-kill.  The only thing the Melee has to do is make sure he can charge (generally, by being able to fly).

I have to say I think the CW samurai is completely superfluous.  You could use a Core Fighter build, and simply design a feat tree, that would NOT be overpowered, to do everything the class does.  The 'weapon master' concept already exists with the Spec Tree...no need to have another whole class with the shtick.  Condense it down and make it automatic for the Fighter class.  Most 'weapon mastery' classes/concepts come down to mastery of specific weapons, like rapier, spiked chain, boomerang/thrown weapons, etc, as opposed to just making classes that get bonuses for wielding weapons.  The Paizo fighter does that...he's the Weapon Master concept, his skill with them determined in order of preference.

I agree on the Ancestral weapon...that comes right out of OA's samurai.  And yes, I think Fighters should have all good saves, to reflect their status as the Olympians of melee and lack of reliance on magic spells to buff themselves.  They've already got MAD trying to have all the stats to qualify for feats...why do they have sucky saves when the prior editions of the game realized they needed good ones?

Das Bier!
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 08:03:14 PM by Bier »

Midnight_v

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #177 on: August 16, 2008, 07:43:01 PM »
Duel of wits anyone? :debate
 :D
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Kai

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #178 on: August 16, 2008, 07:56:08 PM »
Seriously. Everyone has had their shots. Now put up or shut up.

Anymore and this thread is done (my apologies to Robbypants).


edit to include the following...

Now that the challenges have been issued any further swipes at either side from the parties involved will get their posts deleted. Period. I don't care if the entire post is a shot or if they buried a veiled insult into the center of a very long constructive post.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 05:31:26 PM by Kai »
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Bier

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #179 on: August 16, 2008, 08:04:20 PM »
Precog, Midnight? ;)

Seriously. Everyone has had their shots. Now put up or shut up.

Anymore and this thread is done (my apologies to Robbypants).

Deleted it as soon as I posted it...before I even saw this, actually.

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