Author Topic: Balancing 3.5  (Read 188544 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #740 on: September 03, 2008, 06:08:24 PM »
Well, then it'd be more like 'you cannot use this for the rest of the dungeon' because it takes a few days to fix it. Then it could potentially be justified (though unless it's a uber weapon, or maybe a shield it's most likely not critical and if it is then there's the action costs to deal with).
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Ubernoob

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #741 on: September 03, 2008, 06:10:18 PM »
Sunder needs to be revised because the mechanic doesn't work in a high magic world.  Sunder works IRL becuase weapons aren't worth nations.  You can also reforge a sword with a decent amount of skill if you have both pieces.  D&D doesn't do that.  It needs to be fixed.

How about you can repair magic items for the same cost as non-magic, non-masterwork, versions of those items? Then allow sunder for any item, without immunities (Adamantine would be an exception). I think that that would validate breaking the loot, then using it anyway later, for a fairly small cost.
That sounds pretty fair.  Plus, with things like fabricate you don't even get stuck with your stuff sundered at high levels.
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RabidPirateMan

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #742 on: September 03, 2008, 06:20:57 PM »
Or acraft Armor or Weapon check?

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #743 on: September 03, 2008, 06:24:03 PM »
Or acraft Armor or Weapon check?
Whatever's good.  Just as long as it takes longer to repair something than it does to break it and doesn't cost too many resources.
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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #744 on: September 03, 2008, 06:25:04 PM »
I'm a little concerned with the current direction of the thread.
 
First of, at this point it looks as tho the goal is to completely rebuild the game rather then to try and balance it. All this talk of completly reworking the combat styles seems a bit off-topic to me. Not to mention, I still dissagree with some of the basic premises being used as a reason to rebuild the combat styles. For example, Ubernoob's assertions regarding TWF and power attack... I disagree with based on my own experince.
 
Thats part of the problem... when you start disecting fighting styles... everyone has an opinion, and everyone thinks they are more quallified then the next guy to have those opinions.
 
The fighting styles in D&D are not perfect... I have not found any games that get it 'dead on'... but then again, thats just MY opinion bassed on my experince, which differs from others.  :-\
 
The biggest immbalance in D&D to me exists between spellcasters and melee bassed characters. If your main goal is to try and bring the classes closer to one another in power... thats where the focus needs to be. Not all over the map on trying to make the fighting styles 'make more sense'... especialy given that people will almost never agree on what 'makes more sense'.
 
Now... if you DID want to almost compeletly rewrite the game... then my bad, I got the wrong idea about the intent of this thread, and please carry on.  ;)

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #745 on: September 03, 2008, 06:34:04 PM »
Well, I think the problem is more the insistance of real world mechanics.  DnD needs to be balanced as almost a video game instead of a simulator.

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #746 on: September 03, 2008, 06:44:16 PM »
Quote
Now... if you DID want to almost compeletly rewrite the game... then my bad, I got the wrong idea about the intent of this thread, and please carry on
hmph. okay point to you. I don't want that at all.
The only thing is that yes S&B needs more support feats thats all.
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Ubernoob

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #747 on: September 03, 2008, 06:52:29 PM »
Well, I think the problem is more the insistance of real world mechanics.  DnD needs to be balanced as almost a video game instead of a simulator.
Point.

On fixing stuff: I don't want this thread to have the piazo effect.
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RabidPirateMan

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #748 on: September 03, 2008, 06:59:03 PM »
Well, I think the problem is more the insistance of real world mechanics.  DnD needs to be balanced as almost a video game instead of a simulator.
Point.

On fixing stuff: I don't want this thread to have the piazo effect.

Piazo effect = sucking?

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #749 on: September 03, 2008, 07:03:08 PM »
Well, given many of the underlying premises are:

<A> False.
<B> Getting in the way.
<C> All of the above.

A complete rebuild is actually not off topic. How else are you going to solve even basic issues such as 'hyperspecialization required for basic competence unless you are a spell caster'?
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Ubernoob

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #750 on: September 03, 2008, 07:06:01 PM »
Well, I think the problem is more the insistance of real world mechanics.  DnD needs to be balanced as almost a video game instead of a simulator.
Point.

On fixing stuff: I don't want this thread to have the piazo effect.

Piazo effect = sucking?
Piazo-Focus on backwards compatability (they failed, btw.  they just don't know it) means they don't actually fix all the problems.  They modify the more drastic stuff, but that stuff never really mattered because it was so rarely used.  As such they don't actually fix stuff that doesn't work like it should.  S&B for instance.  TWF for instance.  Don't we want to make a better game?  We should be willing to make a better game.
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AndyJames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #751 on: September 03, 2008, 09:10:40 PM »
One of the things I've found when trying to balance online games like MUDs (i.e., create an even distribution of classes and races in characters in the game) is that the exact power level does not matter as much as attractiveness of the powers. In other words, if every class has a power/ability that everyone wants to have, then chances are, people will start playing them in a more even distribution.

It is, of course, much easier to do that in a MUD, where classes are fixed from day 1, and the number of classes are relatively small compared with DnD, but that is a general idea that I put forward as something to consider while trying to balance something.

Bier

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #752 on: September 03, 2008, 09:25:55 PM »
Hrrm...  Now this is just me, but the problem here might be diversity.  Fighter 6/Barbarian 6 becomes kinda useless, since you're getting the same stuff.  If the problem is that melee classes lose out on maneuverability because they want to make full attacks so much, certainly giving them stuff to play with is fine, but it just sounds vanilla to say "at this level, you all get the same thing."
Someone suggested a while back to give Pounce at BAB +6 to all classes (or perhaps non-casters) and a full-attack as a move action at BAB +16.  This would help with multiclassing.  One nice (and crappy) thing about giving it out at a particular class level is it encourages a player to stay a single class.  Of course, if the ability is too good, no one will ever PrC.


Course, you'd also have to think of what to give the Ranger and Pally...
I still have work to do on this, but here's where I'm at so far:
  • Before I considered changing the three fighting styles, I was thinking of wrapping Improved and Greater TWF into one feat with TWF.  Thus, rangers would get nothing meaningful at levels 6 and 11 if they picked the TW combat style.  I was thinking of giving out Pounce and the full attack abilities at these levels instead.
  • I'm not sure about the paladin yet.  I'm strongly considering using OneWing4ngel's paladin, which has a conisederable power boost.  I'm not sure how I'd fit it in.  Perhaps the abilities could be used as swift casting spells or divine feats (burn through a resource to get the ability).
  • I don't know if I want to give the abilities out to the Martial Adepts yet either.
Well, I'm not sure giving out at BAB is really the solution for Poucne.  Automatic class ability for melee classes at those levels, sure.

Also, the Ranger still gets the same thing at those levels as he did before...those are the points where his BAB allows extra attacks.  It is the FIGHTER who profits, by not blowing an extra feat on them.  Just make Pounce core to all 3 main melee classes, and you are good.

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Ubernoob

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #753 on: September 03, 2008, 10:01:41 PM »
Hrrm...  Now this is just me, but the problem here might be diversity.  Fighter 6/Barbarian 6 becomes kinda useless, since you're getting the same stuff.  If the problem is that melee classes lose out on maneuverability because they want to make full attacks so much, certainly giving them stuff to play with is fine, but it just sounds vanilla to say "at this level, you all get the same thing."
Someone suggested a while back to give Pounce at BAB +6 to all classes (or perhaps non-casters) and a full-attack as a move action at BAB +16.  This would help with multiclassing.  One nice (and crappy) thing about giving it out at a particular class level is it encourages a player to stay a single class.  Of course, if the ability is too good, no one will ever PrC.


Course, you'd also have to think of what to give the Ranger and Pally...
I still have work to do on this, but here's where I'm at so far:
  • Before I considered changing the three fighting styles, I was thinking of wrapping Improved and Greater TWF into one feat with TWF.  Thus, rangers would get nothing meaningful at levels 6 and 11 if they picked the TW combat style.  I was thinking of giving out Pounce and the full attack abilities at these levels instead.
  • I'm not sure about the paladin yet.  I'm strongly considering using OneWing4ngel's paladin, which has a conisederable power boost.  I'm not sure how I'd fit it in.  Perhaps the abilities could be used as swift casting spells or divine feats (burn through a resource to get the ability).
  • I don't know if I want to give the abilities out to the Martial Adepts yet either.
Well, I'm not sure giving out at BAB is really the solution for Poucne.  Automatic class ability for melee classes at those levels, sure.

Also, the Ranger still gets the same thing at those levels as he did before...those are the points where his BAB allows extra attacks.  It is the FIGHTER who profits, by not blowing an extra feat on them.  Just make Pounce core to all 3 main melee classes, and you are good.

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Swashbuckler?  Hexblade?  Multiclassed characters?
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Bier

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #754 on: September 03, 2008, 10:56:01 PM »
The main problem between the three styles that I'm seeing is that some of the posters completely devalue AC as something that is easy to get around.  THat's not true in most games...abuse of touch attacks is seen as abusive as corrosively worded wishes.

Now, citing touch attacks and huge TH bonuses to obviate AC is one of the things we've already addressed.  There aren't going to be any bonuses higher then a Barbarian's Rage at 20, or a +6 Str item.  Races and templates that hand out massive physical bonuses are just gone...physical enhancements are being revalued to be as important as mental enhancements.  You don't see many PC's getting access to races that start off with +4 Int, Wis or Cha, do you? Same should apply to physical stats in all their forms.

This solves the problem of the huge TH numbers that should not be so easily generated.

Monster AC being all over the board for the CR is a CR problem.  4E solved the problem by having AC scale by type of monster by level.  BIg squishies have lower aC, do lots of dmg.  Soldier types have good AC, don't do as much dmg.

Touch attacks either need to be moved out of the melee arena and restricted to certain spells as a delivery system, or done away with completely.  There is no excuse for an attack method that completely bypasses a defense it is geared for.  As I noted before, it's like Direct Damage spells that bypass Reflex defenses.  With minimal optimizing, you can make 'guaranteed' kills.  It's not 'Save or Die.' It's just 'Die,unless I roll a 1."

Power Attack needs to be brought down to be equalized.  You can't bring it up to 2 pts to all attacks.  That will imbalance everything.  1 pt of PA for Primary weapon equalizes it across the spectrum...THW gets its Str bonus and more base dmg for being big.  TWF gets more attacks off.  SAB benefits because it's better AC will win, by the math, over the other two styles.

This system works absolutely fine unless the only thing you are focusing on is more and more dmg output.  The fact of the matter is, there IS supposed to be a reasonable cap on the amount of dmg you can do, just as there's supposed to be a reasonable chance to save against a spell.

If you change the combat paradigm from being able to deal freakishly large amounts of single attack dmg, to all three styles doing major, consistent dmg with enhanced mobility, that ends up becoming far more useful.  The Charger build is popular because it allows you to get to the enemy, and kill him.  Just running up and whacking it once otherwise, doesn't work.  Full attacks are too hard to get off.  ToB proved it more deeply...Standard Actions that deal the equivalent of full attacks.  Nobody thinks they are imbalanced.  But they have precise limits to them...they are controlled.

TWF takes a lot of mechanical coordination to pull off successfully...it's very practice intensive and requires an emphasis on off-hand development that most people simply do not do.  I, for instance, was never able to throw effectively with my left hand, or bat both ways...I had a great throwing arm with my right.  To be an effective TWF is to have both arms working equally effectively in a fight.  That is neither easy nor common, and takes a lot of practice compared to wielding a weapon in two hands.

Accuracy of light weapons is a misnomer.  You're mistaking the demands of the fighting style for the power of the style.  Light weapons are easier to control, to an extent, but the fact remains that they simply don't have the penetrating power that heavy weapons do.  You have to ply both weapons against a heavier weapon to get it to move, and the expected 'easy follow up slash' is avoided as easily by footwork as threatening to lop off your head if you move even one blade out of position.

Too, weapon mass is a huge deal in a fight.  You don't parry a greatsword with a light weapon...the mass of the sword will simply drive it back into you, probably break your wrist, or at least numb your arm from the shock.  It takes both weapons to do so.  It also isn't so much that lighter weapons are more accurate in that they MUST be more accurate.  Light weapons have to be used against holes in defenses.  Large weapons MAKE holes in defenses...they pound on armor, they drive into flesh, they break bones, snap necks, stun and sunder and beat on people.  Light weapons have to be used against openings, because you aren't going to flatten out someone's pauldrons and drive it into their shoulder joint with a swing, or put a dent in their helmet and snap their neck with a blow, or slam your way through two inches of leathery hide and rip open muscle and bone in one rending swipe.  You have to rely on cutting open vulnerable points...if you are NOT accurate, then you are utterly ineffective (ting!).  Bigger weapons don't need to be as accurate...which is not to say their wielders are not.  They maximize angles of attack and leverage just like light weapons.  Being able to 'wield a Greatsword like a willow wand' is an advantage of being hugely strong...your control of it is just as fine and precise of someone else with a much smaller weapon.

Also, much of the killing power of two weapons is wrapped up on the ability to bring them both to bear at different angles of attack.  This is a showier way of bringing one big weapon to bear, realistically.  Sure, I could impale you through the gut and liver, or cross-swipe your head off from two directions...or I could just shove my big sword right through your ribcage, or hew your head off with one swing, not two.  Mechanically, TWF is THW for weaklings who can dance around better.

The issue of reach is also bound up in 'ability to threaten'.  Greatswords threaten at a distance, true...but Greatswords are SLOW.  Greatswords don't have a lot of leverage at the tip...they are much easier to push aside and get inside.  Once inside the reach of that tip, where greatest force is applied, Greatswords have problems being brought to bear...and the shorter weapons of the enemy can play on him.  This doesn't mean they are ineffective close up...it means they are much less effective.

So, in essence, 'normal reach' is just a compromise between ability to get in close to an attacker vs. ability to stand off just far enough and hack them down.  Big weapons that have reach take the latter ability to such lengths that they can't even be used properly against someone in tight quarters with them.

ToB introduced an Iron Heart stance that gives +5' reach on your turn only.  This is balanced...it basically approximates an increased ability to lunge to the attack, combining either height and reach or speed and footwork...either explanation works.  It's the equivalent of a feat.  If you want reach with a Greatsword, take it.

==================

The loss of 2:1 Power Attack should shed no tears.  It is the ONLY thing that gives THW the advantage over the styles in the current game, especially with Charger abuse.

Just do some basic math.

THW, greatsword, 18 Str.  At low levels, +2 dmg, 7 avg wpn, 9 pts a swing.
TWF, shortswords, -2 th, 7 from weapons.  If you let Str bonus for off hand, 9 pts if both hit.  However, accumulates dmg more quickly with spec skills/magic.
SAB, 7 pts a swing,b ut 2-3 more pts of AC reduces incoming dmg by 10%...and as the shield rises in AC given it will potentially top out at 20-25% of incomign dmg being soaked by the shield, if not more.

At level 20 with a 30 Str and +5 weapons...

Greatsword is doing +15 from Str, +5 magic, +7 weapon = 27, before all other considerations.
Shortswords are doing +7 from weapons, +15 from Str, +10 from magic, but -2 TH, for 32 dmg.
SAB is doing +10 Str, +5 magic, +5 weapon for 20 dmg....but he's soaking 35% of his melee dmg to a shield, at least! That would, for instance, render him about equal in dmg/rd to a shortsword guy, and reduce the Greatsword guy to 18 dmg/attack.  If he adds a single bash to the attack, he could potentially add 7 pts from Shield, 5 from Str, and 5 from magic for another +12...spread out over 4 iteratives, he's actually going to do slightly more dmg to the TWF guy then is being dealt to him.

Ergo, the weapon styles have now become equals against one another.

Clearly, the big sword is best on the charge.  Clearly, the TWF is going to go hogwild if he has a bunch of bonus dmg per attack.  Clearly, the Shield guy does less dmg...but he'll still kill his enemy, and live through a fight that would kill the other two, AND, by the math, he'd kill either of them in a real fight.

All you have to do is make AC relevant again.  Remove Touch Attacks, bring overpowered DMG and TH back into the realm of reality, and the styles are again balanced.  Hit and Die attacks from melee are as or more abusive then Save or Dies from spellcasters, and you can't ignore it or handwave it away if you want to balance the styles out.

It requires a minor nerfage of Power Attack, which grossly favors one combat style over the others, and it requires treating AC as an important defense again.

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Bier

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #755 on: September 03, 2008, 10:59:27 PM »
Swashbuckler is a subset of fighter.  Hexblade is a gish who relies on spells and curses.  Multiclasses characters are trolling for different advantages from different classes...there's no reason to make Pounce easy for them to get.  If the Fighter/Barb/Ranger/Pally (oops, so 4) can Pounce, and they can cast arcane spells instead and have useful magical abilities, I don't see the problem.

it's called a tradeoff.  Ya take the good, ya take the bad, ya take em both and there ya have..

As for the DB fireball...ah, rassum frassum, couldn't keep the one thing about it between editions, could they? I suppose they did it when they upped the cap to 20d6 (used to be 15, I think).

I'm not sure on such massive additive numbers per die of dmg.  With Rods and metamagic feats, DD can already inflict tremendous loads of dmg...the key is making those feats easier to get/acheive, not just mass producing direct dmg.  If you want to be a blaster, you should invest in blasting stuff the same way an illusionist buffs in illusions and a conjuror in enhancing his summoning skills and monsters.

A really simple thing Monte did with his arcane spellcaster is that all elemental attacks are swappable by all casters.  Thus, resistance and immunities are more for the environment then they are protection against elemental attacks.  The magister makes a knowledge check, notes weaknesses, and tailors all his attack spells accordingly.

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« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 11:04:04 PM by Bier »

RobbyPants

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #756 on: September 03, 2008, 11:17:51 PM »
How about you can repair magic items for the same cost as non-magic, non-masterwork, versions of those items? Then allow sunder for any item, without immunities (Adamantine would be an exception). I think that that would validate breaking the loot, then using it anyway later, for a fairly small cost.
I was going to suggest something similar to this as well.  That way, you can sunder an opponent's <whatever> as a viable tactic, and still not lose your loot (at least not permanently).


I'm a little concerned with the current direction of the thread.
 
First of, at this point it looks as tho the goal is to completely rebuild the game rather then to try and balance it.
I'm a bit torn, honestly.  My origninal intent was to rewrite a few classes, add some abilities to others, fix a few bad feat and spells and call it good.  I didn't consider much in the way of combat rewrites either.  I still have to give it some thought, but for simplicity, I may leave the basis of d20 combat alone.


Quote from: Bier
Well, I'm not sure giving out at BAB is really the solution for Poucne.  Automatic class ability for melee classes at those levels, sure.
Swashbuckler?  Hexblade?  Multiclassed characters?
I can see both sides of this argument.  I suppose I have no real problem with rogues getting pounce at 8th level.  Perhaps the full attack as a move action at ~11th could be a class feature to encourage taking a class.  Still, then no one would want to PrC out until 12th level.

Hmmm... I still need to give this some thought.


The loss of 2:1 Power Attack should shed no tears.  It is the ONLY thing that gives THW the advantage over the styles in the current game, especially with Charger abuse.
Well, I agree with you that making all Power Attacks 1:1 (and only allowing the main weapon in TWF to Power Attack) would balance the feat, I'm going to side with UberNoob (and Frank & K) on this one.  I think that making all power attacks 2:1 would keep the same level of balance while keeping the feat worth while.

This makes sense to me if you compare it to Combat Expertise.  Trading +1 to hit for +1 AC is a fairly even trade.  1:1 hit to damage doesn't make much sense, as in most cases, your average damage will drop with each penalty you take.  This still happens at 2:1, but it's less situational.

I'd put in my vote for 2:1 Power Attack for one-handers too.
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Ubernoob

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #757 on: September 04, 2008, 12:40:04 AM »
The main problem between the three styles that I'm seeing is that some of the posters completely devalue AC as something that is easy to get around.  THat's not true in most games...abuse of touch attacks is seen as abusive as corrosively worded wishes.
See my comment about scaling.  Saves and DCs scale.  TH scales.  AC doesn't scale.  That's why AC doesn't matter.  It's a Y/N stat rather than a % stat.
Quote from: Bier
Now, citing touch attacks and huge TH bonuses to obviate AC is one of the things we've already addressed.  There aren't going to be any bonuses higher then a Barbarian's Rage at 20, or a +6 Str item.  Races and templates that hand out massive physical bonuses are just gone...physical enhancements are being revalued to be as important as mental enhancements.  You don't see many PC's getting access to races that start off with +4 Int, Wis or Cha, do you? Same should apply to physical stats in all their forms.

This solves the problem of the huge TH numbers that should not be so easily generated.

Monster AC being all over the board for the CR is a CR problem.  4E solved the problem by having AC scale by type of monster by level.  BIg squishies have lower aC, do lots of dmg.  Soldier types have good AC, don't do as much dmg.

Touch attacks either need to be moved out of the melee arena and restricted to certain spells as a delivery system, or done away with completely.  There is no excuse for an attack method that completely bypasses a defense it is geared for.  As I noted before, it's like Direct Damage spells that bypass Reflex defenses.  With minimal optimizing, you can make 'guaranteed' kills.  It's not 'Save or Die.' It's just 'Die,unless I roll a 1."
See above.
Quote from: Bier
Power Attack needs to be brought down to be equalized.  You can't bring it up to 2 pts to all attacks.  That will imbalance everything.  1 pt of PA for Primary weapon equalizes it across the spectrum...THW gets its Str bonus and more base dmg for being big.  TWF gets more attacks off.  SAB benefits because it's better AC will win, by the math, over the other two styles.
We're getting into troll territory.  I don't want to have to crack down on you.  Just leave the fetishes at home. k?
Quote from: Bier
This system works absolutely fine unless the only thing you are focusing on is more and more dmg output.  The fact of the matter is, there IS supposed to be a reasonable cap on the amount of dmg you can do, just as there's supposed to be a reasonable chance to save against a spell.
No, there's not.  HP scales exponentially.  Thus, damage per round needs to scale exponentially as well.
Quote from: Bier
If you change the combat paradigm from being able to deal freakishly large amounts of single attack dmg, to all three styles doing major, consistent dmg with enhanced mobility, that ends up becoming far more useful.  The Charger build is popular because it allows you to get to the enemy, and kill him.  Just running up and whacking it once otherwise, doesn't work.  Full attacks are too hard to get off.  ToB proved it more deeply...Standard Actions that deal the equivalent of full attacks.  Nobody thinks they are imbalanced.  But they have precise limits to them...they are controlled.

TWF takes a lot of mechanical coordination to pull off successfully...it's very practice intensive and requires an emphasis on off-hand development that most people simply do not do.  I, for instance, was never able to throw effectively with my left hand, or bat both ways...I had a great throwing arm with my right.  To be an effective TWF is to have both arms working equally effectively in a fight.  That is neither easy nor common, and takes a lot of practice compared to wielding a weapon in two hands.
Maybe you just have a physical handicap.  Fighting with two weapons is seriously not that hard.
Quote from: Bier
Accuracy of light weapons is a misnomer.  You're mistaking the demands of the fighting style for the power of the style.  Light weapons are easier to control, to an extent, but the fact remains that they simply don't have the penetrating power that heavy weapons do.  You have to ply both weapons against a heavier weapon to get it to move, and the expected 'easy follow up slash' is avoided as easily by footwork as threatening to lop off your head if you move even one blade out of position.
Again, keep it to actual facts.
Quote from: Bier
Too, weapon mass is a huge deal in a fight.  You don't parry a greatsword with a light weapon...the mass of the sword will simply drive it back into you, probably break your wrist, or at least numb your arm from the shock.  It takes both weapons to do so.  It also isn't so much that lighter weapons are more accurate in that they MUST be more accurate.  Light weapons have to be used against holes in defenses.  Large weapons MAKE holes in defenses...they pound on armor, they drive into flesh, they break bones, snap necks, stun and sunder and beat on people.  Light weapons have to be used against openings, because you aren't going to flatten out someone's pauldrons and drive it into their shoulder joint with a swing, or put a dent in their helmet and snap their neck with a blow, or slam your way through two inches of leathery hide and rip open muscle and bone in one rending swipe.  You have to rely on cutting open vulnerable points...if you are NOT accurate, then you are utterly ineffective (ting!).  Bigger weapons don't need to be as accurate...which is not to say their wielders are not.  They maximize angles of attack and leverage just like light weapons.  Being able to 'wield a Greatsword like a willow wand' is an advantage of being hugely strong...your control of it is just as fine and precise of someone else with a much smaller weapon.
I addressed this in much less unweildy language well above.
Quote from: Bier
Also, much of the killing power of two weapons is wrapped up on the ability to bring them both to bear at different angles of attack.  This is a showier way of bringing one big weapon to bear, realistically.  Sure, I could impale you through the gut and liver, or cross-swipe your head off from two directions...or I could just shove my big sword right through your ribcage, or hew your head off with one swing, not two.  Mechanically, TWF is THW for weaklings who can dance around better.
Again, I addressed this above and with less unweildy language.
Quote from: Bier
The issue of reach is also bound up in 'ability to threaten'.  Greatswords threaten at a distance, true...but Greatswords are SLOW.  Greatswords don't have a lot of leverage at the tip...they are much easier to push aside and get inside.  Once inside the reach of that tip, where greatest force is applied, Greatswords have problems being brought to bear...and the shorter weapons of the enemy can play on him.  This doesn't mean they are ineffective close up...it means they are much less effective.
*sigh*
Again, I've stated in much less unweildy language.
Quote from: Bier
So, in essence, 'normal reach' is just a compromise between ability to get in close to an attacker vs. ability to stand off just far enough and hack them down.  Big weapons that have reach take the latter ability to such lengths that they can't even be used properly against someone in tight quarters with them.
Again, I've addressed this in less unweildy language above.
Quote from: Bier
ToB introduced an Iron Heart stance that gives +5' reach on your turn only.  This is balanced...it basically approximates an increased ability to lunge to the attack, combining either height and reach or speed and footwork...either explanation works.  It's the equivalent of a feat.  If you want reach with a Greatsword, take it.
Except that RL isn't turn based so this has no meaning.  Reach is exactly that ability to lunge.  End of story.
Quote from: Bier
==================

The loss of 2:1 Power Attack should shed no tears.  It is the ONLY thing that gives THW the advantage over the styles in the current game, especially with Charger abuse.

Just do some basic math.

THW, greatsword, 18 Str.  At low levels, +2 dmg, 7 avg wpn, 9 pts a swing.
TWF, shortswords, -2 th, 7 from weapons.  If you let Str bonus for off hand, 9 pts if both hit.  However, accumulates dmg more quickly with spec skills/magic.
SAB, 7 pts a swing,b ut 2-3 more pts of AC reduces incoming dmg by 10%...and as the shield rises in AC given it will potentially top out at 20-25% of incomign dmg being soaked by the shield, if not more.

At level 20 with a 30 Str and +5 weapons...

Greatsword is doing +15 from Str, +5 magic, +7 weapon = 27, before all other considerations.
Shortswords are doing +7 from weapons, +15 from Str, +10 from magic, but -2 TH, for 32 dmg.
SAB is doing +10 Str, +5 magic, +5 weapon for 20 dmg....but he's soaking 35% of his melee dmg to a shield, at least! That would, for instance, render him about equal in dmg/rd to a shortsword guy, and reduce the Greatsword guy to 18 dmg/attack.  If he adds a single bash to the attack, he could potentially add 7 pts from Shield, 5 from Str, and 5 from magic for another +12...spread out over 4 iteratives, he's actually going to do slightly more dmg to the TWF guy then is being dealt to him.

Ergo, the weapon styles have now become equals against one another.
You should know at this point that we can do math better than you.  At this point everyone reading the thread just skips over any "numbers" you give because they typically assume idiots for players.
Quote from: Bier
Clearly, the big sword is best on the charge.  Clearly, the TWF is going to go hogwild if he has a bunch of bonus dmg per attack.  Clearly, the Shield guy does less dmg...but he'll still kill his enemy, and live through a fight that would kill the other two, AND, by the math, he'd kill either of them in a real fight.
Again, stop with the fetishes.
Quote from: Bier
All you have to do is make AC relevant again.  Remove Touch Attacks, bring overpowered DMG and TH back into the realm of reality, and the styles are again balanced.  Hit and Die attacks from melee are as or more abusive then Save or Dies from spellcasters, and you can't ignore it or handwave it away if you want to balance the styles out.

It requires a minor nerfage of Power Attack, which grossly favors one combat style over the others, and it requires treating AC as an important defense again.

Das Bier!


Again, I've addessed all of that and more with much less unweildy language.  Why did you waste everyone's time?
Swashbuckler is a subset of fighter.  Hexblade is a gish who relies on spells and curses.  Multiclasses characters are trolling for different advantages from different classes...there's no reason to make Pounce easy for them to get.  If the Fighter/Barb/Ranger/Pally (oops, so 4) can Pounce, and they can cast arcane spells instead and have useful magical abilities, I don't see the problem.
Ranger is a wilderness themed fighter.  Rogue is a stealth themed fighter.  Paladin is a cleric themed fighter.
Stop wasting our time with failure to use logic.
Quote from: Bier
it's called a tradeoff.  Ya take the good, ya take the bad, ya take em both and there ya have..

As for the DB fireball...ah, rassum frassum, couldn't keep the one thing about it between editions, could they? I suppose they did it when they upped the cap to 20d6 (used to be 15, I think).

I'm not sure on such massive additive numbers per die of dmg.  With Rods and metamagic feats, DD can already inflict tremendous loads of dmg...the key is making those feats easier to get/acheive, not just mass producing direct dmg.  If you want to be a blaster, you should invest in blasting stuff the same way an illusionist buffs in illusions and a conjuror in enhancing his summoning skills and monsters.

A really simple thing Monte did with his arcane spellcaster is that all elemental attacks are swappable by all casters.  Thus, resistance and immunities are more for the environment then they are protection against elemental attacks.  The magister makes a knowledge check, notes weaknesses, and tailors all his attack spells accordingly.

Das Bier!
Again, investing wealth to be viable means your style is gimped.


Really, why are you wasting our time?  Contribute or go back to Gleemax.  You did wonderfully earlier in the thread after everyone was about to ban you.  Why lapse into your old ways now?

Put up logic, or go home.
Ubernoob is a happy panda.

Psychic Robot

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #758 on: September 04, 2008, 01:47:45 AM »
Bier's posts were really TL;DR.

AndyJames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #759 on: September 04, 2008, 01:51:20 AM »
What does TL;DR mean?