Author Topic: Balancing 3.5  (Read 188278 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #420 on: August 21, 2008, 08:00:04 PM »
Well, when it comes down to it... Fireball turning sucks, because Fireball sucks. Especially when it's weaker Fireball turning (half level?) and Will based (Undead have good Will saves but bad other saves, and lots of HD are required to get enough BAB/HP to pose a threat which means very high Will saves).

So really the best case is that you're comparing 1d6 to about... 2d12 or so? Maybe 3d12? Because that's how it's really scaling. Do 3.5 more damage, when the enemy has at least 13 more HP. Then factor most of the newer undead have Unholy Toughness which basically makes their Charisma act like Constitution for a living creature... I'd say you have much better things to spend your actions on.
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Squirrelloid

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #421 on: August 21, 2008, 10:15:21 PM »
If T/ Undead is going to be damage, it should be d6/level and if it allows a save it should be fortitude.  Seriously.  I'm not convinced it needs a save...  It should also make them frightened or whatever the first level fear effect is (even though undead normally can't be effected, getting bathed in positive energy should be sufficient to make them wet their pants).

Actual Undead HD scaling is something like 3HD per CR, because for some reason Undead have craploads of HD.

If its going to be positive energy, it should also heal automatically for non-UD creatures.  Because that's what fucking positive energy does.

On the other hand, rebuke should be a wave of negative energy, deal damage to living creatures, heal undead, and being able to take control of undead is still cool but should probably be a different effect.  Call it 'bolster undead'.

Possibly turn control undead into a turning use that lets you try to take control of target undead (Will Save?  You gain a bonus to the DC based on the difference between your level and its CR if in your favor?)  Give positive energy something that's the reverse which stuns a target undead instead of controls it.
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Bier

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #422 on: August 21, 2008, 11:12:44 PM »
If T/ Undead is going to be damage, it should be d6/level and if it allows a save it should be fortitude.  Seriously.  I'm not convinced it needs a save...  It should also make them frightened or whatever the first level fear effect is (even though undead normally can't be effected, getting bathed in positive energy should be sufficient to make them wet their pants).

Actual Undead HD scaling is something like 3HD per CR, because for some reason Undead have craploads of HD.

If its going to be positive energy, it should also heal automatically for non-UD creatures.  Because that's what fucking positive energy does.

On the other hand, rebuke should be a wave of negative energy, deal damage to living creatures, heal undead, and being able to take control of undead is still cool but should probably be a different effect.  Call it 'bolster undead'.

Possibly turn control undead into a turning use that lets you try to take control of target undead (Will Save?  You gain a bonus to the DC based on the difference between your level and its CR if in your favor?)  Give positive energy something that's the reverse which stuns a target undead instead of controls it.

I think 3 HD/CR is a bit of an exaggeration, and there are actually very, very few undead out there with Unholy Toughness (not that I don't think it's a great ability and I do think it should be a feat for them).

The save is based on the fact that Cures/inflicts use a Will save, and fear/command is a will effect.  Clearly, if you include the secondary fear/command, the damage is just icing that gets rid of low level undead.  If you go to pure dmg, then it's an AoE you can spam that does no harm to your allies, strictly better then a fireball.  Not sure if it should heal and harm at the same time to full dice...that would be utterly lethal for evil priests against living foes.  Turning is meant to be strong against a very select group of things...undead.  Making it extremely powerful against the living intrudes directly into the shtick for DD spells...hence the 1/2 dmg effect.

Heck, the damage against undead, if used on the Turning Check level, is probably balanced against the Command Undead power of rebuking, for the same level...

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Ubernoob

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #423 on: August 21, 2008, 11:25:08 PM »
Undead are 2HD/CR by advancement.  Just for the record.
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Squirrelloid

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #424 on: August 21, 2008, 11:29:00 PM »
Undead are 2HD/CR by advancement.  Just for the record.

I was thinking of things like zombies.  A 20HD zombie is CR like 8...
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RobbyPants

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #425 on: August 21, 2008, 11:30:20 PM »
Well, this morning I did bump it to d6 per level, to get it more on par with how it works in core (in terms of what level you need to be to be able to expect to destroy an undead creature).

Perhaps I should change it a bit.  I do like the idea of positive energy always healing living creatures, so maybe is should be more like this:

Turn Undead
You create a burst of positive energy centered on yourself with a thirty foot radius.  All undead creatures in the area take 1d6 points of damage per Cleric level.  All living creatures in the area are healed for half that amount.  You are not affected by your own turn attempts.

Bolster Undead (replace rebuke undead)
You create a burst of negative energy centered on yourself with a thirty foot radius.  All undead creatures in the area are healed 1d6 points of damage per Cleric level.  All living creatures in the area take damage equal to half that amount.  Living creatures may make a Will save for half damage (DC 10 + 1/2 Cleric level + Cha mod).  You are not affected by your own bolster attempts.

Improved Turn Undead
Prerequisite: Ability to turn undead
Benifit: When you turn undead, all undead creatures in the area must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Cleric level + Cha mod) or be paralized for a number of rounds equal to half your Cleric level plus your Cha mod.  This ability bypasses an undead creature's normal immunity to paralysis.

Rebuke Undead
Prerequisite: Ability to bolster undead
Benifit: When you bolster undead, all undead creatures in the area must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Cleric level + Cha mod) or risk falling under your control.  If your Cleric level is at least double the undead creature's hit dice and it fails its Will save, it is under your mental control.  You may control any number of undead creature's whose total hit dice does not exceed your Cleric level.


Analysis: The damage from turn undead above scales well in that each cleric level deals roughly 1/2 an undead creature's hit dice of damage.  Thus, every two cleric levels will deal one hit die of damage to an undead creature on average.  Taking the Will save out keeps this consistant.  The positive energy heals half this amount to living creatures, but I'm excluding the cleric.  The biggest reason I excluded the cleric is I didn't want the boster ability to damage a cleric.  Of course they could take Tomb Tainted Soul, and it would be quite worth while.  Should this affect the cleric too?

The bolster ability heals an identical amount to turning damage, so they cancel eachother out nicely.  Should the bolster allow undead to gain temporary hit poitns?  If so, I would want to cap it (perhaps one hit point per hit die, or something like that).  I used the name bolster because I thought it was more descriptive.  I suppose I could change this back to rebuke to be less confusing...

I decided to go with paralysis instead of fear for the improved turning.  I did this both because if you have to spend a feat to get it, it should be worth it, and also because it's a pain in the ass to track down fleeing undead.  Also, they're immune to crits, so you can't just go CDG them.

Hopefully the mechanic for rebuking (controlling) undead is good enough.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
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Squirrelloid

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #426 on: August 21, 2008, 11:38:06 PM »
Well, this morning I did bump it to d6 per level, to get it more on par with how it works in core (in terms of what level you need to be to be able to expect to destroy an undead creature).

Perhaps I should change it a bit.  I do like the idea of positive energy always healing living creatures, so maybe is should be more like this:

Turn Undead
You create a burst of positive energy centered on yourself with a thirty foot radius.  All undead creatures in the area take 1d6 points of damage per Cleric level.  All living creatures in the area are healed for half that amount.  You are not affected by your own turn attempts.

Bolster Undead (replace rebuke undead)
You create a burst of negative energy centered on yourself with a thirty foot radius.  All undead creatures in the area are healed 1d6 points of damage per Cleric level.  All living creatures in the area take damage equal to half that amount.  Living creatures may make a Will save for half damage (DC 10 + 1/2 Cleric level + Cha mod).  You are not affected by your own bolster attempts.

Improved Turn Undead
Prerequisite: Ability to turn undead
Benifit: When you turn undead, all undead creatures in the area must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Cleric level + Cha mod) or be paralized for a number of rounds equal to half your Cleric level plus your Cha mod.  This ability bypasses an undead creature's normal immunity to paralysis.

Rebuke Undead
Prerequisite: Ability to bolster undead
Benifit: When you bolster undead, all undead creatures in the area must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 Cleric level + Cha mod) or risk falling under your control.  If your Cleric level is at least double the undead creature's hit dice and it fails its Will save, it is under your mental control.  You may control any number of undead creature's whose total hit dice does not exceed your Cleric level.


Analysis: The damage from turn undead above scales well in that each cleric level deals roughly 1/2 an undead creature's hit dice of damage.  Thus, every two cleric levels will deal one hit die of damage to an undead creature on average.  Taking the Will save out keeps this consistant.  The positive energy heals half this amount to living creatures, but I'm excluding the cleric.  The biggest reason I excluded the cleric is I didn't want the boster ability to damage a cleric.  Of course they could take Tomb Tainted Soul, and it would be quite worth while.  Should this affect the cleric too?

The bolster ability heals an identical amount to turning damage, so they cancel eachother out nicely.  Should the bolster allow undead to gain temporary hit poitns?  If so, I would want to cap it (perhaps one hit point per hit die, or something like that).  I used the name bolster because I thought it was more descriptive.  I suppose I could change this back to rebuke to be less confusing...

I decided to go with paralysis instead of fear for the improved turning.  I did this both because if you have to spend a feat to get it, it should be worth it, and also because it's a pain in the ass to track down fleeing undead.  Also, they're immune to crits, so you can't just go CDG them.

Hopefully the mechanic for rebuking (controlling) undead is good enough.

I like.  I do think both should effect the cleric.  I mean, come on, you're channeling pure negative energy through yourself and suffer *no* negative effects?  Really?  Nah, let them take the damage and like it!  (Or take TTS for great justice!)
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AfterCrescent

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #427 on: August 21, 2008, 11:40:27 PM »
I like it RobbyPants. Two things. No, I don't think the energy should affect the cleric. It should be workable in core only, so TTS may not always be an option. Remember, you are channeling the energy, not actually absorbing it into yourself.  The second thing, and much more minor, is the 30' range. Why? It's a burst from you, why did you change it from the original 60' range of turning?
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RobbyPants

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #428 on: August 21, 2008, 11:58:33 PM »
The second thing, and much more minor, is the 30' range. Why? It's a burst from you, why did you change it from the original 60' range of turning?
The reason I went with 30 feet is because this is heavily based on an alternate mechanic in Complete Divine.  The version there had a 30 foot range.

It could go up to 60 feet I suppose.  What does everyone think?

=======================================
Also, I don't know if anyone's looked at the first page of the thread in a while.  Recent change I made I highlighted in red.  I'm curious for people's in put on the Hexblade, Paladin, and the Mind Blade psionic power I made in particular.  I'm worried I may have gone a bit overboard with the Hexblade, so I'm curious what everyone else thinks.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Ubernoob

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #429 on: August 22, 2008, 12:07:42 AM »
Undead are 2HD/CR by advancement.  Just for the record.

I was thinking of things like zombies.  A 20HD zombie is CR like 8...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingHitDice
I was wrong.  Should have consulted first.  4HD per CR increase.
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Mister_Sinister

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #430 on: August 22, 2008, 12:18:50 AM »
Undead HD and CR quite honestly have like no relationship at all. 8HD can mean CR anything between 3 and 10-odd, if not higher.

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AfterCrescent

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #431 on: August 22, 2008, 12:22:41 AM »
Undead HD and CR quite honestly have like no relationship at all. 8HD can mean CR anything between 3 and 10-odd, if not higher.
True, but the less abilities (re: mooks) the more HD they usually have per CR. Since turning should be effective against mooks, it should somehow work with that... Also, how does turn resistance work with damage under this modification?
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Mister_Sinister

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #432 on: August 22, 2008, 12:24:41 AM »
Convert it to some kind of damage resistance, or, alternatively, bonus to saves for half damage against it would be my call.

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AndyJames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #433 on: August 22, 2008, 12:25:05 AM »
Reduce the number of dice by a multiple of the turn resistance.

Mister_Sinister

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #434 on: August 22, 2008, 12:29:34 AM »
Your solutions works too, AJ. :D

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AfterCrescent

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #435 on: August 22, 2008, 12:32:25 AM »
Agreed. Off the top of my head 2d6/turn resistance sounds decent. Thoughts?
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RobbyPants

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #436 on: August 22, 2008, 12:35:17 AM »
Agreed. Off the top of my head 2d6/turn resistance sounds decent. Thoughts?
That would have been my suggestion.  It works out fairly well.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

AndyJames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #437 on: August 22, 2008, 12:39:56 AM »
That sounds reasonable. It would mean that even a level 20 cleric will only do 12d6 damage to a lich at a time, excluding feat boosts. For a 20d12 monster, that is the equivalent of about 1/4 of its hp.

Mister_Sinister

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #438 on: August 22, 2008, 01:04:08 AM »
That's good. It makes turning actually worth something past about level 3 or so.

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #439 on: August 22, 2008, 01:04:43 AM »
Yeah, makes it worth staying in cleric. :D That's always a plus
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