Quote is Me Quoted by Robby, Normal is Robby Pants, Bold is reply to Robby.
How I handled it in my home campaign was even simpler...wizards are a PrC class for sorcerors. Sorcery is the 'base' arcane casting class, wizardry is something you qualify for. Wizards study, but they get their potential from sorcery.
I'm not sure how I feel about this mechanically, but thematically I love the idea. I'd need to hear more about how you did it. How does the wizard PrC advance? Is it only 10-level? What do you do afterward?
The big balancing thing for Wizards are access to a library to get new spells (they are innately 'trained'). So you can't level up in Wizard without access to a teacher with resources, or your own library. A Wizard also couldn't be a specialist..those were other PrC's...or take a Bloodline...that was pure Sorcery magic, and detracted from the all-encompassing view of Wizards. You want to limit yourself, be a Sorc or Spec PrC class!
You qualify for Wizard by taking Scribe Scroll as a sorceror. This allows you to scribe a spellbook, with proper training.
Each level of Wizard allows you to scribe spells into your book and swap spells out for that level. Level 1 = cantrips, Level 2= level 1 spells, etc. You paid for every spell that you wanted to put into your book. So you get your 'core spells' for free (as a Sorc, if you don't want to put them into your book), and pay for all the rest you acquire. And no, I didn't allow you to scribe them for free or reduced cost the first time you learn them. If you want to Boccob Book them, that was your secondary book.
Any level you don't take of wizardry, you just take as a Sorceror. So, a Sorc/Wizard 5/5 is a 10th level spellcaster, uses the Sorc/10 tables, and can sub out spells up to 4th level from his spellbook (levels 0-4). He needed access to a library worth at least 16K (1000 gp x spell level^2) to take his last level of Wizardry. Next level, he'll probably take Wizard again, maybe needing to go to a bigger guild, OR invest in his own library, to be able to swap 5th level spells.
Cha grants bonus spells castable/day. Int grants bonus spells known/day. If you have Wizard levels, you can use Int or Cha to satisfy caster reqs for spell levels.
Sorceror levels grant quick metamagic or bloodline feats acquisition. Wizard levels grant 4 metamagic or Item creation feats. You can't take a Wizard level unless you can/will be able to cast spells of the appropriate level it teaches you (so, no Wiz/10, sorc/1's, since you can't cast 9th level spells). I think I threw in Brew Potion as an extra to Wizards, too, to offset the cost of Scribe Scroll to get in, and fits the theme.
Interesting effects off this: You can torch a wizard's Int, and as long as he's got some Cha, he can still cast spells! (At core, he's just a highly trained, intelligent Sorceror).
Wizards will want high Cha to get bonus spells castable, but it's not neccessary. But the 8 Cha Wizard is a thing of the past, as they need at least an 11 to be a sorc. So Wizards tend to be impressive, smart, driven individuals.
If the Wizard loses his spellbook, he still has all his spells in memory, and doesn't expend them. He can't change them, however, except by 'crashing his Valences', which is basically a reset button.
In a nod to the power of spontaneous casting, I limited the # of spells a Wizard could change in a day to his Int bonus. So, with 18 Int, he could remove 4 spells Known from his Valences, and sub in 4 others from his spellbook. This meant he could gradually change his entire spells Known, but not invert it upside down in one go.
Unique ability: The wizard could 'crash his Valences'. This would automatically rebuild his Valences (spells known) to his 'default' Sorceror Spells Known, without needing to consult his spellbook. Thus, he could have an 'adventuring template' as his Sorc Spells Known, change tons of spells out of the dungeon to more utility/specialized uses, and when it's time to adventure, crash his Valences to hit the reset button, without having to slowly change everything back.
The Gold expenditure of the Wizards was signficant, from acquiring extra spells to being forced to set aside funds for a library of your own, or having access to a guild or school of the same (who, of course, charge fees!).
Sorcerors had none of these costs, but got none of the day to day flexibility, and were One Stat. Sorceror was considered untrained magic anyone could get and use, but the real masters of magic were the Wizards. However, needing no training time, down time, or having to spend money and lug around a spellbook? Priceless, to some.
Wizards stronger? Yes, Wizards actually trained, and invested in their magic. Sorcs? Just cast spells all day, gloated in their bloodlines and ancestry.
Specialized casters? You start with Sorc and go into them. No Specialist Wizards. Basically, you are exploiting a Bloodline advantage to the fullest. You got access to a broader spell list, and lost access to choice. Your Sorc Spells known was based purely on Sorc levels (A Dread Necro X/ Sorc 5 had Spells Known of a Sorc 5, + access to the Dread Necro list, regardless of level).
The premise was that magical training was important, but the root power was Sorcery...and a Sorceror with no training could still rise up out of nowhere and set the world on its ear, and you pretty much couldn't stop him even if he did nothing but live in the woods all the time. Wizards...were controllable. It takes libraries, books, labs to be a Wizard and make Items. Wizards were civilized, Sorcerors, well, Sorcs could be ANYTHING.Classes with more limited spell access have other advantages in their specialty. Taking out school spec and just subbing in X class as a PrC for specialists is how I handle it. Takes the spell problem right out of the picture. Dread necro? Sure, ten level PrC, restrict your caster list way down, but you are THE necro spec. No need to mess around with bloodlines, necro spec, necro master spec, necro theurgy, whatever. One Necro spec PrC, if you really want to be a necro.
Yeah, and you can start down the road at level 2.
Specialists as PrCs could be cool. I feel WotC used Complete Mage to help un-nerf specialists a bit. The Master Specialist PrC sort of does what you want, but not quite.
Turn the Dread NEcro into a 9 level PrC Class For Sorcs, maybe a 10th level 'capstone', and you're pretty good to go...one level for each level of the spell list.It looks to me as if the big problem is that you want Turning to be more useful then it is now, and the only way you can see it being productive is with DMM. That's not really a fix for the problem. It IS possible to make turning as it now effective against undead, and if you are playing an undead-heavy campaign, it's worth it. You can also use the Ravenloft variant and it's mechanics for Turning as Damage, also making it effective...like having tons of undead slaying fireballs ready to go off.
Optionally, you can use the Monte Cook variation for his Greenbonds, and just substitute bonus healing spells for Turning attempts as the character goes up in levels.
There's also the variant from Paizo. What they do is negative and positive energy do the same thing to living and undead creatures, simply reversed.
The effect is d6+Cha, +d6/2 levels of energy in a 30'radius. If positive, this heals the living and harms the undead. They get a Will save (10+1/2 level +Cha) for half dmg, and to avoid fleeing in fear for 1-4+Cha rounds. This is a fair exchange of damage to undead and healling everyone around you, and it starts at low levels.
If negative,the damage heals undead, harms the living, and if the undead fail the will save, they are rebuked.
I've tried something similar to this before. There's a very similar variant in Complete Divine. The only thing I didn't like about it was it took away the ability for evil clerics to control undead (at least with the Turn Undead mechanic). I suppose a way to work that in would be to allow you to control an undead creature with a negative burst, if it were to heal at least as many HP as the undead creature had at that time, making injured creatures easier to control.
This makes sense in that the turn damage (or healing) is based directly on cleric level, and the undead creature's HP are based on their HD. Undead having d12 HD and clerics turning for roughly 1/2 level d6 damage work out fairly well for the cleric being able to control an undead creature who's HD are 1/2 their level or lower. A high damage roll would allow you to control a more powerful creature, and a lower roll would keep you from controlling them.
How does that sound? I like the idea at first glance.
It's definitely not imbalanced. If you slip in the Divine Feat rewrite that allows Cha/rd fast healing for Turning level/rds, you also take care of a lot of the healing for the party, and it scales with levels. Combat healing you can leave in as an option, but most healing you'll want to do outside of combat,and be more effective. Monte handled this with actually making a difference between 'combat healing' and 'normal healing', the former dealing subdual dmg to the cleric and leaving scars on the warrior, the other taking more time but having no ill effects.
This would also inspire a cleric to get more turning attempts and a higher Cha, as it raises his healing pool for the party, yet steers away from the FH/1 all day that's probably broken below Epic.Lastly is changing the divine feat that grants fast healing. If you change the effect to granting more fast healing, and the duration of it being your Turning level, you in effect get a nice 'healing pool' that a cleric can spend over the course of a day to not have to spend healing spells. For instance, you could base it on Cha....said divine feat grants fast healing Cha to every ally in 30' for Turning Level in rounds. A nice dip of healing power that scales very nicely with levels...but still isn't infinite healing.
I like the idea. It would be more powerful than the turning ability mentioned above in the long run (assuming a halfway decent Cha mod), but it takes both time, and a feat to use.
Whoops, yes, sorry to revist it twice. Sure, it's stronger then base Turning, but as an 'improvement' you expend a Feat to get, it's supposed to. Even sticking with the Paizo variant of positive/negative dmg/healing for starters, you're okay...this just goes to the next step, and focuses all that undead dmg effect into out of combat healing effect.===================(Replies to ARcher Crescent and other comments, overall)
I find it interesting how the Rage and Ki pools of the Paizo barb and monk are disparaged, when they are, in essence, nothing more then a word for Psionic Points/Spell Points with a specific list of powers attached and accessible. Even the req to have at least 1 pt in reserve for Ki attack powers directly echoes the need for 1 PsP to be on hand to get a Psionic Focus. Compared to a Psy Warrior or Psion, this is much simpler.
Likewise, disparaging the Paizo Paladin, when it is extremely similar to the other Paladin fix presented here, I also find amusing. Both even use Pools!
The abuse possibilites of the Wizard Focus item have already been noted to Paiso.
Keep in mind it's Beta rules, still subject to a lot of revision. I also find it funny that some other people think the Paizo cleric is completely nerfed vs Powered Up...but c'est la vie. That's why there are notes all over the place. Likewise, the Fighter capstone is seen as coming far too late, and the Ranger bonus is probably overdone with bonus TH AND to Dmg. Rogues, wow, did they get a combat hike.
Starting hit points is actually a very hot point, as the one hit/kill at level 1 has been a sore point for a long time. Monte Cook started the trend with higher 'death points' (-hp = to Con) and improved toughness, and it's slowly risen over time. Most games assume maximum hp/hd at start now as default, and some go to that + Con Score, JUST to get around the one hit/dead shtick. In the long run, it doesn't make much difference, except you have to up the minimum hp of monsters to also compensate a bit for your refusal to fall down and die. It would also make the 1/2 Max Hp Healing Auras viable at all levels, although FH/1 still works on negative hp allies even with lower HP's, I have to note.
Also, a good reason to take the 'combined' Toughness feat (3 hp +1/lvl is +4 hp at level 1, as Paizo did it...balanced and usable~)
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Morphing/Shapechanging: I'm a big fan of simply limiting the number of forms you can take to a list, just like limiting a spell list. Pick a number of forms = to your Int bonus, or level/4, or something. If the list is predetermined, the abuse goes away. Paizo does this by making each form a seperate spell, and limiting the special abilites you can acquire.
Druidic Wildshaping: In 1E, you got 3 forms, period....one reptile, one bird, one mammal. If you were aquatic, you could swap one of these out for one Fish. At very high levels, you got the elemental forms, but they were much less abusive, and you got only the one size. A DM might even rule you could only pick a favored element to cut down on abuse, which would lend itself to druidic elemental orders, if nothign else.
Monster Summoning: The Astral Construct is a good basis for a creature here. Thematically, summoning 'monsters' out of the MM just doesn't work, as it just encourages people to go for the most broken monster.
Summoning 'demons' or 'spirits' makes much more sense...you can tailor make who and what you get, and give the creature a name. Names of particularly powerful spirits might be passed down, and lower level spirits could manifest as higher level creatures if you put more power into the spell, i.e. M.Summoning II upgrades "Gloudule" to a level 2 monster, giving him an extra boost off the Astral Construct table.
Yeah, you'd have to keep track of EXACTLY what ability Gloudule gets at each level, instead of customizing on the fly...but it means you'd bring in different monsters to deal with different situations, which is exactly what happens with literary conjurors ("Molzagom III, I choose you! (becuase I need a flyer)). Even more fun, passing on the secret of summoning Mulzagom is a great thematic source of power. An old, ancient spirit might even be allowed an extra ability...who can say? Or perhaps it requires an exclusive Feat to access the power of "Ancient Bennitiir, Lord of Leaves", a Monster Summoning IV+ with exclusive access to the Greenbond Template, callable only within a menhir ring...
Restrict the number of 'names' you can actually summon (1 name/M summoning spell?) would restrict the amount of creatures you could bring to a battlefield (no bringing Gloudule I and Gloudule 4 and Gloudule 7), and keep right in theme. All creatures would be modular and upgrade. A Conjuror with 9 M. Summoning Spells would have 9 mighty creatures, customized, he could bring to a battlefield, at various levels of power (hear the deck shuffling in the background...)
It's also be funny to refer to Augment Summoning as "All my summoned monsters have upgraded!" Hah!
More importantly, every Conjuror would be absolutely unique in what he commanded...no more of this Celestial XXX shtick applied, and trying to maximize templates. Design the look and feel of your Summon...it could look like a dog or vegepygmy, doesn't matter, design your own stats, name it, and give it modular upgrades as you and it become more powerful, acquiring different and other powerful spirits as you also level.
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