Author Topic: Balancing 3.5  (Read 188263 times)

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Bier

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #260 on: August 18, 2008, 09:28:15 PM »

Agree to disagree then?

K. NEXT TOPCIC?

DIVINE METAMAGIC.
BAN or FIX ... you be the judge.
Is it the way it works?

Or is it, Persistent spell thats is the culprit?
A wise man at last.

Breaking the metacap is broken.  Neither Divine Metamagic nor Persistent Spell is impressive if you don't allow breaking of the metacap.  Pesistent ceases to be an issue until 13th level at the earliest, and you can only Persist 1st level spells at that point.  You never get to Persist higher then 3rd level spells.

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #261 on: August 18, 2008, 09:33:31 PM »
Incorrect. He is not the best warrior against evil. He gets a limited number of attacks that add Cha to his to hit, and paladin level to damage. That number is... what? 1-5 a day? And those only work against evil targets. Well first off, he has a lower base to hit since he needs more stats high and therefore has a lower Strength. So while he might put a little something extra in those 1-5 attacks, the rest are weaker. End result is the average is the same or lower.

Now, just to compare to another low tier class making suboptimal choices... Fighter takes the WF line. +4 to hit, +6 to damage. Always. Every time. Between that and the better strength for +1 to hit/+1.5 damage per bonus point... We can see that the plain, flavorless Fighter does fighting evil better. And he can also deal with neutral brigands, attack beasts, etc which are going to appear even in a very strongly good vs evil campaign just as well. That's what? 5 feats? He still has 6 left. I don't remember what Supremacy does offhand and don't want to limit it to 18+ so I'm ignoring it.

If you have to nova and have things go exceptionally well for you to keep up with a Fighter you suck. Period.

Next topic... DMM is fine. It is 3 feats after all for one trick. Persist is fine. DMM + Persist is fine. It's when you get massive amounts of nightsticks and such for free turning attempts so that you aren't limited to around... 4 spells at a time if you use the staggered Extend method at the high end it gets ugly.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

AfterCrescent

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #262 on: August 18, 2008, 09:40:13 PM »
Next topic... DMM is fine. It is 3 feats after all for one trick. Persist is fine. DMM + Persist is fine. It's when you get massive amounts of nightsticks and such for free turning attempts so that you aren't limited to around... 4 spells at a time if you use the staggered Extend method at the high end it gets ugly.
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AndyJames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #263 on: August 18, 2008, 09:41:54 PM »
I see no problems with DMM so long as you rule that Nightsticks do not stack (there is enough vagueness there that this is a valid interpretation). I see DMM: Quicken is good for all those emergency situations when you need to cast that particular spell. DMM: Persist is for those couple of buffs that you want to last all day.

Without stacking Nightsticks, unless you want to invest a substantial number of feats into it, DMM is rather limited.

Bier

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #264 on: August 18, 2008, 09:57:40 PM »
quote author=Midnight_
  Most people don't want to be penalized mechanically for what they've done or decided to do with their character, which is why the crusader doesn't have that drawback/option. Its a terrible design... even in 4th its "gone" somewhat.

I agree...people don't like having to accept mechanical consequences for their actions in game.  For the paladin, it's actually bit into the class.

 Also, Robbypants, I'm against the notion that you shuold be punished for how you play your character except for roleplay consequences. 

Roleplay consequences basically aren't consequences.  They are generally lumped into the same category as 'stealing the mage's spellbook', and 'any choice you make is evil, so you're hosed, paladin-boy! nyuck nyck!'

  Lastly to me, it brings up a terrible variance in games, The "Dm's" paladin, the Justicator paladin, the policeman (telling other players how they get to play thier characters and who they can be "Cause I'll lost my powers, if I don't slay you now for killing that kobold. It was trying to surrender!"

That's a gamer problem, not a class problem.

  Further... on the topic of morality, Hextor or Asmodeus(if he's a god), and Bane all have the "right" to have holy champions. D&D is a game of objective morality cause there are multiple Gods you answer to.

In real world mythology, the evil gods preside over evil realms where the evil are punished.  You don't get rewards for following the gods of Evil.  you propitiate them.  If they give you power, it's because they want your soul.  Your reward is to be forever enslaved in the afterlife to an epitome of Evil...not sitting around and sipping bloodwine with paramour fiends.  IN Hell, they don't care who you were...unless you ascend to demigodhood on your own, or are a true saint, you get dumped in a pit of lava as fuel for the infernal fires, and come out a lemure like everyone else.  Rewards? You got your rewards while living, dummy, now you pay for the rest of eternity. 
That's how Evil works.  You thought otherwise? LOL, deal with it, chump.
Good people get rewarded in the afterlife.  Evil rewards people for what they are doing now and might do...not for what they did.  And when you're dead...you're not doing anything for Evil anymore, you just became a manes or nupperibo supper for the next bar-Igura that lopes along.


  You don't get punished for "good" or "evil" you get punished for failiure. . . which is why it's in the interest of any fallen paladin to trade out levels and become Darth Vade...uhm I mean a blackguard.
  Lets just leave it be... its another one of those if it ain't broke things. The crusader is a class that works fine as it is and anything we do to it will probabbly screw it up.
For the paladins... for all things paladin. We should start with OneWingedAngels revised paladin, its the best I've seen and in the end makes the paladin about the same tier as the Martial adept. Its what I use and the info is free...

I'm sure we've all seen it but heres the link. . . THE REBALANCED PALADIN

That's a good paladin thread.  Looks a lot like the Paizo build, complete with a Lay on hands pool.

Quote from:  THE NEW CODE (if indeed we must have one)
Code of Conduct

A paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment, and abide by a higher standard of morals and honor than the average Good-aligned person. Indeed, she is the paragon of heroic Good, drawn to a higher cause. Truly she is a person of high calibre, moral and otherwise.

There is a code of conduct presented in the PHB, but it really is better classified as an example of a generic paladin's vows and code. However, in your game being a paladin may mean quite a different thing altogether! After all, not all settings are the same, nor are all paladins. They serve various causes and deities, and the nature of Good and Evil is not always so stereotypically straightforward in all settings. Your code should represent the beliefs of your church or cause or whatever it is you, as a paladin, fight for!

Talk with your DM about what it means to be a paladin in your campaign, and the implications of it. If you are the DM, consider this, and what it really to be the paragon of good in your campaign. It should be noted that a single mistake or lack of perfection should not make a paladin fall. Indeed, is it not the lack of perfection and ultimately human(oid) nature of such a heroic figure that makes him all the more endearing and, truly, notable in calibre? After all, any old celestial can be perfect, but a man has to work for it.

Instead, the paladin falls from grace if she grossly violates her code (as stated, yet all too often overlooked, in the PHB. This means that some minor infraction would *not* make the Paladin fall), or if she changes alignment from Lawful Good. Your alignment should be your overall personality and outlook, not the result of the last action you took (although that last action *could* be considered to grossly violate the paladin's code, of course. The paladin's code is not synonymous with alignment). It should be extremely rare for a single act to alter your alignment, and it certainly shouldn't be so if the act was not done with wrongful intentions. Alignment changes should usually be the result of fairly consistent behavior of a character.

Ex-Paladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good or grossly violates her code loses all paladin spells and abilities. She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character

He never did to a revised blackguard but the blackguard but he set an incredible ground work that many have followed, and I use in my games, but I made the blackguard a base class, so if you fall either way at anytime you may swap out levels completely...
"What? The gods have forsaken you? Hmm... well, come to the darkside, have some cookies friend."

Made from bone meal ground from pregnant women and stillborn infants, no doubt!

The primary change is energy types to the smite powers, and the hero never falls capstone is replaced by
Pact of returning. (or Eternal Scourge or whateve)
Basically if a 20th level blackguard dies, his body discoporates and he his risen up in the nearest "bog, swamp, bad land, or desert within 100 miles... as a Death Knight like creature, he get the Blast of the void and the undead type, as well as unholy toughness(charisma to hit dice instead of con).
I decided that because there's no actual listed way to become a deathknight.  So die as a blackguard 20? Rise again.

I hope thats not too garbled I'm 17 hours up... :rolleyes


Hmm, do you call that state a reward or a curse? :)  And what happens when Mr. Death Knight is killed again?  And why does the Blackguard, who can stoop to poison, assassination, murder, rape, torture, mass slaughter, and all manner of tactics that the Paladin explicitly cannot, get the exact same benefits as the Paladin?  Advantage: All Evil.

Good post!

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Midnight_v

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #265 on: August 18, 2008, 10:07:34 PM »
 :rolleyes *sigh*
Excellent idea, Midnight.

Free metamagic: Get rid of it.  Period.  Metamagic doesn't work particularly well, but free metamagic is worse.  The sole case I can see keeping is metamagic rods.  They cost right about what they should for the effect.

The paladin discussion is dead in this thread.
Wow. I think a small amount of free metamagic is good for the game.  Things like the "Fell" line and Explosive and scuplt. I think sorceror should get reduced or free metamagic uses a few times a day.
  I hear more about night stick abuse than persist abuse so ok to Aftercrescent and Andyjames frankly I've never had them in a game or had anyone try to use them so I dont' have first hand knowledge of it.
 
Rarely do we disagree but honestly its the metamagic rods that I hate, though I can see the cost isse, being dead on.
I'm not willing to dispense with free/reduced metamagic entirely just yet. Maybe I'm biased I like metamagicing certain things quite abit like Fell Frighten, and highten, I like it because it gives something to people do if they're trying to "specialize" in a low level spell.
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Ubernoob

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #266 on: August 18, 2008, 10:16:45 PM »
:rolleyes *sigh*
Excellent idea, Midnight.

Free metamagic: Get rid of it.  Period.  Metamagic doesn't work particularly well, but free metamagic is worse.  The sole case I can see keeping is metamagic rods.  They cost right about what they should for the effect.

The paladin discussion is dead in this thread.
Wow. I think a small amount of free metamagic is good for the game.  Things like the "Fell" line and Explosive and scuplt. I think sorceror should get reduced or free metamagic uses a few times a day.
  I hear more about night stick abuse than persist abuse so ok to Aftercrescent and Andyjames frankly I've never had them in a game or had anyone try to use them so I dont' have first hand knowledge of it.
 
Rarely do we disagree but honestly its the metamagic rods that I hate, though I can see the cost isse, being dead on.
I'm not willing to dispense with free/reduced metamagic entirely just yet. Maybe I'm biased I like metamagicing certain things quite abit like Fell Frighten, and highten, I like it because it gives something to people do if they're trying to "specialize" in a low level spell.
I'm...  damn man I gotta sleep . tommorow dudes.

That's a pretty fair stance.  IMO, we need to give a blanket statement, "no free metamagic" and then apply case by case exceptions to that rule.  I think both incantatrix and DMM give too much bang for the buck.  Other stuff... not so much.
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Psychic Robot

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #267 on: August 18, 2008, 11:25:00 PM »
Ubernoob, that is what is known as "putting it lightly."

RobbyPants

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #268 on: August 19, 2008, 12:04:41 AM »
Honestly, I'm not that interested in debating alignment mechanics and alignment role-play in this balance thread.  The importance of that varies so much from game to game anyway.

Agree to disagree then?
Great idea! 

K. NEXT TOPCIC?

DIVINE METAMAGIC.
BAN or FIX ... you be the judge.
Is it the way it works?

Or is it, Persistent spell thats is the culprit?
I'd say DMM is fine if you don't allow the caster to modify a spell beyond the level he could normally cast (I'm assuming that's what others refer to as the metacap?).  Thus, you couldn't use DDM Persist on Divine Power until you were capable of casting 10th level spells, even though the actual cost is a level 4 slot and 7 turn attempts.

Generally, I don't think Persistant Spell is that bad in most situations.  One of the worst offenders I've found is Wraithstrike, and I posted a fix to that on the first page that makes it pointless to persist.  Basically, it only applies to your next attack instead of all attacks for the round.  Thus, persisting it would only allow you to "store" it until you attacked for the first time.

==========================================

As for some rebalanced classes (I know this was a topic several pages back, but I've been out all afternoon and night :P), I was thinking about looking at something quick for the fighter and paladin.  I still don't have the patience to work on a monk fix yet.  Swordsage is still sounding too nice (and easy :P)

Fighter

As for the fighter, my favorite quick fix I've seen so far was Midnight_V's where you fill in the nine dead levels with maneuvers.  Here's what he posted a few pages earlier:
[spoiler]
Many many ways to do it, without signifigantly doing a complete re-write.
Add manuevers on the off levels is another easy fix + full initiator level.

Lets explore that as a quick fix.
Chose 2 schools. Gain 2 manuevers (one from each school) every odd level starting at 3rd.
You do not gain stances but you can take the martial study feat. No recovery method.
 Alternatively, you learn, from 1 school and at every level you learn all manuevers available at that school your initiator level is your fighter level -3 I think that works.
That and expanding the skills. So you still get the dipability and you're doing everything you should be doing

So... the fighter would be
Quote
The Fighter
1 Feat
2 Feat
3 1st level manuevers
4 Feat
5 2nd Level Manuevers
6 Feat
7 3rd Level Manuevers
8 Feat
9 4th level Manuevers
10 Feat.
11. Level 5 Manuevers
12 Feat
13 Level 6 Manuevers
14 Feat
15 Level 7 Manuevers
16 Feat
17 Level 8 Manuevers
18 Feat.
19 Level 9 Manuevers
20. Feat
Which is the most simple and obvious fix suggested by many when the Tob cam out. [/spoiler]


Paladin

As for the palain I have two ideas:

The first (and easiest from my standpoint) is to use OneWing4ngel's paladin from Gleemax.  I notice it's already been posted here earlier.  It's been half a year since the last time I truely looked at it, but I liked a lot of what I saw.

Another option is to add a few small things (similar to the fighter above) that doesn't include a total class rewrite.  I'm still not certain what exactly it would take to fix.  Here are a few ideas that don't all have to be included.  This list is not complete:
  • Make casting Cha based.  This makes him less MAD, which is a boost in and of itself.
  • Boost the Lay on Hands ability.  It's too weak to be really worth a Standard action.  A quick fix would be to keep the max amount healed at one time to be level * Cha mod, but as a swift (or maybe immediate) action.  The total "HP pool" could be level * Cha mod * 3.
  • Use the paladin's full level for turning, so it's on par with the cleric.  It's still gained at 4th level.
  • Use the paladin's full level (or maybe level -3) for any opposed caster level checks, like with Dispel Magic or Spell Resistance.
  • Give a bonus Divine feat at levels 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20.

A few more divine feats could be nice too.  Perhaps one where you spend a turn attempt as an immediate action to have your square block line of effect for spells if you have a heavy or tower shield.  Your square (and you) are affected, but anyone behind you is protected.  It might be a bit too much though.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 02:22:06 PM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

AndyJames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #269 on: August 19, 2008, 12:06:26 AM »
Generally, I don't think Persistant Spell is that bad in most situations.  One of the worst offenders I've found is Wraithstrike, and I posted a fix to that on the first page that makes it pointless to persist.  Basically, it only applies to your next attack instead of all attacks for the round.  Thus, persisting it would only allow you to "store" it until you attacked for the first time.
That does more than you think because Persist does not allow you to use it on a spell which you can discharge. Your change makes Wraithstrike automatically illegal for Persist.

AfterCrescent

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #270 on: August 19, 2008, 12:10:00 AM »
I'd say DMM is fine if you don't allow the caster to modify a spell beyond the level he could normally cast (I'm assuming that's what others refer to as the metacap?).  Thus, you couldn't use DDM Persist on Divine Power until you were capable of casting 10th level spells, even though the actual cost is a level 4 slot and 7 turn attempts.

Let's compare casters real quick. Druid? Get a bajillion class abilities. Wizard? Bonus feats. Cleric? Turning?!  Seriously, read the undead of CR 8+. The amount of resources it takes to make turning viable is sickening. Add to that, getting DMM Persist costs 3 feats and Wizards get 5 free feats. We're talking about an 8 feat disparity. Wizards get 5 bonus feats, clerics have to spend 3. That in and of itself is a limiting factor.  DMM is not unbalanced, even if you allow it to break the level limit (which is the whole purpose of the feat). The sole purpose is to allow a cleric to do something with those turn attempts.  DMM Persisted spells, guess what, are still subject to a simple dispel magic. It's a minor time saver that costs 3 feats and makes use out of an otherwise uselss (imo) class feature.
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RobbyPants

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #271 on: August 19, 2008, 12:11:43 AM »
Generally, I don't think Persistant Spell is that bad in most situations.  One of the worst offenders I've found is Wraithstrike, and I posted a fix to that on the first page that makes it pointless to persist.  Basically, it only applies to your next attack instead of all attacks for the round.  Thus, persisting it would only allow you to "store" it until you attacked for the first time.
That does more than you think because Persist does not allow you to use it on a spell which you can discharge. Your change makes Wraithstrike automatically illegal for Persist.
My fix doesn't make Wraithstrike dischargeable.  The fix is still a swift cast with a duration of one round.  The only thing I changed was to have it work on the first attack you made (within that one round).  It's just if you persist it, it lasts for 24 hours, until you make your first attack.

Still, I made that change for two reasons:
1) Persist Spell
2) Pounce, or other potent full attacks that the designers may or may not have had in mind.

It still allows you to either cast, move, and attack, or cast and charge (with full Leap Attack and what-not).  You can still pump some serious Power Attack into it, but just for one attack.  I think that's still a high boost for a 2nd level spell slot.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

AndyJames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #272 on: August 19, 2008, 12:14:21 AM »
If it disappears after the first hit, it is discharged.

RobbyPants

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #273 on: August 19, 2008, 12:20:58 AM »
If it disappears after the first hit, it is discharged.
Well, if it's not persistable because of that, then I still accomplished what I wanted.


I've also been wanting to talk to all of you psionics veterans.  I have the XPH but not the Complete Psionic (nor do I plan on buying it).  I like what I've read.  I like the PP cap per manifester level.  I like the way psionic focus works with so many feats.  I like how there are relatively few full manifesting PrCs.  Sadly, I've only ever had two player run psionic PCs in my games (both ran straight-up blasters), and I've never played in a game where psionics were allowed.  So, I have very little parctical experience with psionics.

  • How well does it fit balance-wise. 
  • Are there any powers that really need to be pulled back? 
  • I know the psion is listed at tier 2 by JaronK.  What would pull it back?  Fixing a few powers?
  • Is the soulknife worth fixing?  I know BlainTog made a popular fix several years back.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Ubernoob

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #274 on: August 19, 2008, 12:23:06 AM »
Well, psions are right on par with sorcerers.  Only changes needed are to ban bestow power and limit affinity field.  As for the soulknife, he suffers similarly to the monk.
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Guyr Adamantine

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #275 on: August 19, 2008, 12:47:52 AM »
Quote
How well does it fit balance-wise.

Its far more balanced than casting, yet it still throw melee in the mud pool.

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Are there any powers that really need to be pulled back?

Afinity field, Bestow Power, the equivalent to Shapechange (whatever its called), True Mind Switch.

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I know the psion is listed at tier 2 by JaronK.  What would pull it back?  Fixing a few powers?

The system is solid. To put it back, tweak the powers.

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Is the soulknife worth fixing?  I know BlainTog made a popular fix several years back.

Soulknife, as bad as it seems, should be a feat tree IMO.

AndyJames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #276 on: August 19, 2008, 01:03:15 AM »
Psionics is generally self-buff and blasting with some small, but extremely useful, utility. Generally, you can't be God with it, but you can go nova and blow things to heck or turn into something that will tear someone's face off.

It's called Metamorphosis.

Yes, True Mind Switch can be nasty, since it is permanent and unconscious creatures are considered... You know the rest.

I'd give Soulknife full BAB and some of the mobility feats free (Up the Walls, Speed of Thought, etc.) and also Psionic Strike/Weapon (the one that charges up your weapon), but only for the mindblade.

I like psionics as it has less surprises for the DM.

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #277 on: August 19, 2008, 02:11:43 AM »

The role of the Paladin is the warrior against Evil.  There really is no class that performs that role so well.  The Crusader performs the "I'll stand here and tank all day" role quite well.  The Paladin doesn't chafe at his restrictions...he glories in them.  He is not a weapon against the Neutral, and he's not a weapon against the Chaotic.  He is there to face down Evil and just say no.

The Crusader can be played that way, but none of his class abilities cater to that image.  So you can role play a LG crusader knightly archetype to the hilt, sure...but at the end of the day, he's a weapon that doesn't depend on his alignment or code for his strength, and the Paladin does.  Even the flavor text right out of the TOB says that the Sword Saint taught Crusaders of all alignments, because the power of Devoted SPirit was neutral, and only the person wielding it mattered in its use, just like all other martial adepts.

The Religious nature of Crusaders was put in there as a backhanded justification for exclusive access to Devoted Spirit, that's all.  There's no mechanical roots in alignment, faith, gods, or codes in the entire class.

As for the 'one way' to play a paladin, that's a misnomer, too.  Everyone wants to pigeonhole them into the knight in shining armor.  Paladins can be played anyway a fighter can be played...they don't have to be a heavily armored guy on horseback.  Eberrons most common paladins are usually archers, for instance.  They can only be LG...but LG has a lot of leeway in and of itself.

Crusaders? Crusaders can be played any way you like.  Go to it.

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The 'one way' I was saying Paladin's could be played was refering to the alignment restriction and the Paladin's code. ALL Paladins have those in common. They must be holy warriors, fighting against evil, fearless in the face of dar forces... and so on.
 
The point I was trying to make is... you CAN play a Crusader that way as well... or you can play it entirly differantly... but with the Paladin, you MUST be the becon of good.
 
I made absolutly NO refrence to a Paladin's fighting style, feat, weapon, or armour choice... NONE of that.

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #278 on: August 19, 2008, 02:17:17 AM »
Incorrect. He is not the best warrior against evil. He gets a limited number of attacks that add Cha to his to hit, and paladin level to damage. That number is... what? 1-5 a day? And those only work against evil targets. Well first off, he has a lower base to hit since he needs more stats high and therefore has a lower Strength. So while he might put a little something extra in those 1-5 attacks, the rest are weaker. End result is the average is the same or lower.

 
 
He may not be the 'best' warrior against evil... if best is viwed as 'most mechanicly compotent'... however the Paladin *IS* the only base class I can think of specificly designed to BE a warrior against evil... with both crunch and fluff dedicated to that end. The whole purpass of a Paladin is to be noble, decent and good... and fearless facedown evil wherever it may be.
 
You can play almost any charcter class with the same ideals... but the Paladin is the only one MADE for those ideals.

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #279 on: August 19, 2008, 02:29:12 AM »

The role of the Paladin is the warrior against Evil.  There really is no class that performs that role so well.  The Crusader performs the "I'll stand here and tank all day" role quite well.  The Paladin doesn't chafe at his restrictions...he glories in them.  He is not a weapon against the Neutral, and he's not a weapon against the Chaotic.  He is there to face down Evil and just say no.

The Crusader can be played that way, but none of his class abilities cater to that image.  So you can role play a LG crusader knightly archetype to the hilt, sure...but at the end of the day, he's a weapon that doesn't depend on his alignment or code for his strength, and the Paladin does.  Even the flavor text right out of the TOB says that the Sword Saint taught Crusaders of all alignments, because the power of Devoted SPirit was neutral, and only the person wielding it mattered in its use, just like all other martial adepts.

The Religious nature of Crusaders was put in there as a backhanded justification for exclusive access to Devoted Spirit, that's all.  There's no mechanical roots in alignment, faith, gods, or codes in the entire class.

As for the 'one way' to play a paladin, that's a misnomer, too.  Everyone wants to pigeonhole them into the knight in shining armor.  Paladins can be played anyway a fighter can be played...they don't have to be a heavily armored guy on horseback.  Eberrons most common paladins are usually archers, for instance.  They can only be LG...but LG has a lot of leeway in and of itself.

Crusaders? Crusaders can be played any way you like.  Go to it.

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The 'one way' I was saying Paladin's could be played was refering to the alignment restriction and the Paladin's code. ALL Paladins have those in common. They must be holy warriors, fighting against evil, fearless in the face of dar forces... and so on.
 
The point I was trying to make is... you CAN play a Crusader that way as well... or you can play it entirly differantly... but with the Paladin, you MUST be the becon of good.
 
I made absolutly NO refrence to a Paladin's fighting style, feat, weapon, or armour choice... NONE of that.
  Ah!@ Well, my apologies if you thought I was misinterpreting you.

Yes, Paladin as a warrior against all evil, roleplaying built into the class as part of it...the one thing that makes the Paladin unique among classes.

Crusader, yes, play as the shining knight if you elect to.  I just wanted to emphasize that there is neither benefit nor penalty if he decides not to...and imposing a code of conduct for them via alignment is going to seriously bork the system up because Evil is allowed to do stuff Good is not, but the Good Crusader has nothing to fall back on to give him his edge.

Playing a Paladin is a pure roleplaying decision because of that Code and penalties.

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Turning as a class mechanic has been addressed multiple times and places, but the general consensus is to make it more a damage effect then a run away in fear effect.  Really, it becomes a one shot pony against undead, making it very situational...until it suddenly occured to the designers that it was a free 'pool' of power they could draw on to do stuff with.

Thus, turning is the inspiration for all of the pool powers for the Paizo stuff.

I think it was Expedition to Castle ravenloft where they advocated turning a Turn attempt into damage dice against undead, so it was never totally useless.  I'm afraid that I don't remember what the mechanic was in terms of how MUCH damage by level, but it was fairly good, because Undead have that nasty d12 base.

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Metamagic Rods:  Like DMM, these toys are irritating becuase they break the metacap.  However, they are structurally the exact same thing as Sudden Empower, Sudden Maximize, etc, and most of the Rods are for blasting spells, which, generally speaking, need a pick me up.  It's a balance thing, but for the rods, I'd just do the Metacap thing again....hold them to a maximum modified spell level for the Rods, the rods are just like 'free turn attempts' in that regard vs DMM.  If they can't bust the spell cap, they can't really abuse the things with effects above their levels.

That would also, by the by, give more value to the Sudden feats, because with them you CAN break the metacap...go go warmages go!

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