quote author=Midnight_
Most people don't want to be penalized mechanically for what they've done or decided to do with their character, which is why the crusader doesn't have that drawback/option. Its a terrible design... even in 4th its "gone" somewhat.
I agree...people don't like having to accept mechanical consequences for their actions in game. For the paladin, it's actually bit into the class. Also, Robbypants, I'm against the notion that you shuold be punished for how you play your character except for roleplay consequences.
Roleplay consequences basically aren't consequences. They are generally lumped into the same category as 'stealing the mage's spellbook', and 'any choice you make is evil, so you're hosed, paladin-boy! nyuck nyck!' Lastly to me, it brings up a terrible variance in games, The "Dm's" paladin, the Justicator paladin, the policeman (telling other players how they get to play thier characters and who they can be "Cause I'll lost my powers, if I don't slay you now for killing that kobold. It was trying to surrender!"
That's a gamer problem, not a class problem. Further... on the topic of morality, Hextor or Asmodeus(if he's a god), and Bane all have the "right" to have holy champions. D&D is a game of objective morality cause there are multiple Gods you answer to.
In real world mythology, the evil gods preside over evil realms where the evil are punished. You don't get rewards for following the gods of Evil. you propitiate them. If they give you power, it's because they want your soul. Your reward is to be forever enslaved in the afterlife to an epitome of Evil...not sitting around and sipping bloodwine with paramour fiends. IN Hell, they don't care who you were...unless you ascend to demigodhood on your own, or are a true saint, you get dumped in a pit of lava as fuel for the infernal fires, and come out a lemure like everyone else. Rewards? You got your rewards while living, dummy, now you pay for the rest of eternity.
That's how Evil works. You thought otherwise? LOL, deal with it, chump.
Good people get rewarded in the afterlife. Evil rewards people for what they are doing now and might do...not for what they did. And when you're dead...you're not doing anything for Evil anymore, you just became a manes or nupperibo supper for the next bar-Igura that lopes along. You don't get punished for "good" or "evil" you get punished for failiure. . . which is why it's in the interest of any fallen paladin to trade out levels and become Darth Vade...uhm I mean a blackguard.
Lets just leave it be... its another one of those if it ain't broke things. The crusader is a class that works fine as it is and anything we do to it will probabbly screw it up.
For the paladins... for all things paladin. We should start with OneWingedAngels revised paladin, its the best I've seen and in the end makes the paladin about the same tier as the Martial adept. Its what I use and the info is free...
I'm sure we've all seen it but heres the link. . .
THE REBALANCED PALADINThat's a good paladin thread. Looks a lot like the Paizo build, complete with a Lay on hands pool.Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment, and abide by a higher standard of morals and honor than the average Good-aligned person. Indeed, she is the paragon of heroic Good, drawn to a higher cause. Truly she is a person of high calibre, moral and otherwise.
There is a code of conduct presented in the PHB, but it really is better classified as an example of a generic paladin's vows and code. However, in your game being a paladin may mean quite a different thing altogether! After all, not all settings are the same, nor are all paladins. They serve various causes and deities, and the nature of Good and Evil is not always so stereotypically straightforward in all settings. Your code should represent the beliefs of your church or cause or whatever it is you, as a paladin, fight for!
Talk with your DM about what it means to be a paladin in your campaign, and the implications of it. If you are the DM, consider this, and what it really to be the paragon of good in your campaign. It should be noted that a single mistake or lack of perfection should not make a paladin fall. Indeed, is it not the lack of perfection and ultimately human(oid) nature of such a heroic figure that makes him all the more endearing and, truly, notable in calibre? After all, any old celestial can be perfect, but a man has to work for it.
Instead, the paladin falls from grace if she grossly violates her code (as stated, yet all too often overlooked, in the PHB. This means that some minor infraction would *not* make the Paladin fall), or if she changes alignment from Lawful Good. Your alignment should be your overall personality and outlook, not the result of the last action you took (although that last action *could* be considered to grossly violate the paladin's code, of course. The paladin's code is not synonymous with alignment). It should be extremely rare for a single act to alter your alignment, and it certainly shouldn't be so if the act was not done with wrongful intentions. Alignment changes should usually be the result of fairly consistent behavior of a character.
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good or grossly violates her code loses all paladin spells and abilities. She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character
He never did to a revised blackguard but the blackguard but he set an incredible ground work that many have followed, and I use in my games, but I made the blackguard a base class, so if you fall either way at anytime you may swap out levels completely...
"What? The gods have forsaken you? Hmm... well, come to the darkside, have some cookies friend."Made from bone meal ground from pregnant women and stillborn infants, no doubt!The primary change is energy types to the smite powers, and the hero never falls capstone is replaced by
Pact of returning. (or Eternal Scourge or whateve)
Basically if a 20th level blackguard dies, his body discoporates and he his risen up in the nearest "bog, swamp, bad land, or desert within 100 miles... as a Death Knight like creature, he get the Blast of the void and the undead type, as well as unholy toughness(charisma to hit dice instead of con).
I decided that because there's no actual listed way to become a deathknight. So die as a blackguard 20? Rise again.
I hope thats not too garbled I'm 17 hours up... :rolleyes
Hmm, do you call that state a reward or a curse? And what happens when Mr. Death Knight is killed again? And why does the Blackguard, who can stoop to poison, assassination, murder, rape, torture, mass slaughter, and all manner of tactics that the Paladin explicitly cannot, get the exact same benefits as the Paladin? Advantage: All Evil.
Good post!
Das Bier!