Author Topic: Balancing 3.5  (Read 188249 times)

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RobbyPants

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #120 on: August 14, 2008, 11:43:35 PM »
So, if we have the user pay the XP, how would the stacking of inherent bonuses work?  IIRC, right now, they don't stack unless cast in successive rounds.  Would that be necessary if the target pays the XP?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Ubernoob

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #121 on: August 14, 2008, 11:52:55 PM »
That's a stupid idea.  Either the caster always pay the XP or the target always pays the XP. Going around, randomly changing the rules of item creation is dumb.  If the target has to pay the XP, he should have to pay the XP whether he casts the spell, pays to have it cast, or pays to get it out of an item.
Agreed.  The tomes shouldn't have a gp cost that is noticable.  Just the xp cost to use them.  Say, 1000 gp?  There is only one side effect: You have to be level 26 before you can get a +5 inherent bonus to anything.
Why 26?  Is that what you would need for the WBL for five tomes?
5000 xp per point of inherent bonus.  That means you need to have at least 25001 xp above the minimum for your level to use it.  You need to be at least level 26 to have that kind of reserve.
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AndyJames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #122 on: August 14, 2008, 11:57:05 PM »
AJ, first off, the Sage is a moron.

More importantly, what I'm saying is that the Wish spell now function like so:

The target loses 5,000XP and gains a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score.

That's how it should function, and by that alteration the reader of the tome pays the 5,000XP. It also means the cost of the Tomes are reduced, since the caster is not paying.

If the caster continues to pay, it's like saying the caster who makes a staff of disintigrate is hit with the spell multiple times when making it.

We're not changing the rules for Item creation, we're changing the spell Wish. Now it doesn't have an XP cost of 5,000. The 5,000XP is part of the effect when using Wish to gain inherent bonuses.
I know, but we are only changing the spell Wish for increasing stats directly and for spell replication (a la Miracle). Anything else still requires 5000xp (e.g., creating items, etc.) or higher if the item has a higher xp cost.

Ubernoob, I allow the inherent bonuses to stack until +5 in that case. The xp cost will come to be the same at the end of the day.

Ubernoob

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #123 on: August 15, 2008, 12:04:22 AM »
I know, but we are only changing the spell Wish for increasing stats directly and for spell replication (a la Miracle). Anything else still requires 5000xp (e.g., creating items, etc.) or higher if the item has a higher xp cost.
Scroll up on my wish revision.  Critique?
Quote
Ubernoob, I allow the inherent bonuses to stack until +5 in that case. The xp cost will come to be the same at the end of the day.
That would be a (sane) houserule, but one that we haven't mentioned yet.  As written you need to have all 5 at once or you can't get the +5.  However, we could rewrite that too.  In fact, we should.
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RobbyPants

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #124 on: August 15, 2008, 12:12:28 AM »
Going back to a somewhat earlier topic, how would you suggest putting Wish on par with Miracle.  As previously mentioned, the XP cost could be waved in some situations.  I'll copy various bullet points from the SRD:

I figure these can be used with no XP cost:
  • Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
  • Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
  • Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
  • Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
  • Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
  • Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
  • Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

This costs 5000 XP to the target, not the caster:
  • Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.

How about these?
  • Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
  • Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item. (what is the value cap on the item created?  For some reason the number 50,000 is in my head, but it wasn't in the description)
  • Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.


Ubernoob, I allow the inherent bonuses to stack until +5 in that case. The xp cost will come to be the same at the end of the day.
That would be a (sane) houserule, but one that we haven't mentioned yet.  As written you need to have all 5 at once or you can't get the +5.  However, we could rewrite that too.  In fact, we should.

Yeah, I mentioned that a few posts back.  It might be a good idea...
So, if we have the user pay the XP, how would the stacking of inherent bonuses work?  IIRC, right now, they don't stack unless cast in successive rounds.  Would that be necessary if the target pays the XP?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 12:14:19 AM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

AndyJames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #125 on: August 15, 2008, 12:14:06 AM »
I know, but we are only changing the spell Wish for increasing stats directly and for spell replication (a la Miracle). Anything else still requires 5000xp (e.g., creating items, etc.) or higher if the item has a higher xp cost.
Scroll up on my wish revision.  Critique?
It is fine, but like I said, keep the xp cost for wealth creation. The whole wealth thing is centred around the 5gp:1xp exchange rate. If you use Wish for that, you pay accordingly, but with a minimum of 5000xp expended. I agree with everything else (except the Tome thing, of course). I just don't like playing around with the WBL table because it forms the core of the game. If you screw around with it too much, there is a very real danger of you accidentally breaking the game.

AndyJames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #126 on: August 15, 2008, 12:19:32 AM »
Changes in bold below (I was too lazy to retype everything) :D

Going back to a somewhat earlier topic, how would you suggest putting Wish on par with Miracle.  As previously mentioned, the XP cost could be waved in some situations.  I'll copy various bullet points from the SRD:

I figure these can be used with no XP cost:
  • Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
  • Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
  • Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
  • Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
  • Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
  • Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
  • Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

This costs 5000 XP to the target, not the caster:
  • Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Inherent bonuses stack. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score. If the target is unable to pay the 5000 xp (because he would lose a level, for example), the spell fails.
How about these?
  • Create a nonmagical item. This will cost xp in the form of 1xp per 5gp created, with a minimum of 5000xp expended. There is no upper limit except that you cannot spend an amount of xp that would cause you to lose a level
  • Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item. (what is the value cap on the item created?  For some reason the number 50,000 is in my head, but it wasn't in the description) Same xp cost as above with regards to non-magical items.
  • Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.I would leave this out. Leave the curing to the Codzillas.

EDIT: Gods, my typing sucks big donkeys today...
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 12:27:21 AM by AndyJames »

RobbyPants

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #127 on: August 15, 2008, 12:23:34 AM »
Yeah, I kinda felt the same way.  I do like the idea of inherent bonuses stacking, to a max of +5, so I probably will use that.  The 1 Xp per 5 gp could work.  It prevents fabrication type abuses.  I think I'll post in the OP in a couple of minutes, with changes to the SRD highlighted.

Edit:
I've added a modfied version of Wish to the first page under the Spells post.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 12:31:25 AM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Ubernoob

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #128 on: August 15, 2008, 12:34:36 AM »
Going back to a somewhat earlier topic, how would you suggest putting Wish on par with Miracle.  As previously mentioned, the XP cost could be waved in some situations.  I'll copy various bullet points from the SRD:

I figure these can be used with no XP cost:
  • Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
  • Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
  • Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Still weaker than miracle.  Might want to fix that.
Quote
  • Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Sounds good.
Quote
  • Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
A trap.  You should be able to get better stuff just by cheating off divine lists.
Quote
  • Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Sounds pretty underwhelming, but whatever.  Maybe add in a line about circumventing spells like diminsional lock?
Quote
  • Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Still underwhelming.  Either make it an immediate action forced reroll or clarify whether you get to cast a new spell because reality just changed.  Right now it's unclear whether this costs you you slot or not.  Time mechanics are wonky.  Clean up the language to be clear it is just a reroll.
Quote
This costs 5000 XP to the target, not the caster:
  • Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Needs a note that they do stack up to +5.
Quote
How about these?
  • Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Just delete it.  We have things like major creation.  We don't need infinite wealth schemes.
Quote
  • Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item. (what is the value cap on the item created?  For some reason the number 50,000 is in my head, but it wasn't in the description)
Seriously, just make it as if you were paying for it crafted just faster.  No other cost besides the ninth level slot is needed.  Plus, this actually makes it so you have a reason that high end items exist.  The current crafting rules take a silly amount of time.
[/quote]
  • Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
[/quote]
Too clunky.  Just delete it and use Heal.  Mass heal if needed off an obscure list if need be.
Quote
Ubernoob, I allow the inherent bonuses to stack until +5 in that case. The xp cost will come to be the same at the end of the day.
That would be a (sane) houserule, but one that we haven't mentioned yet.  As written you need to have all 5 at once or you can't get the +5.  However, we could rewrite that too.  In fact, we should.

Yeah, I mentioned that a few posts back.  It might be a good idea...
So, if we have the user pay the XP, how would the stacking of inherent bonuses work?  IIRC, right now, they don't stack unless cast in successive rounds.  Would that be necessary if the target pays the XP?
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Shadowhowler

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #129 on: August 15, 2008, 01:31:41 AM »
Can improve or create magical stuff, but you pay all the prices it would take it to craft it yourself except a feat.  You save time and a feat by burning a ninth level slot.  Fair exchange. 

 
I don't like this... I don't think it is a fair exchange. Just bypassing all the item creation feats and time required to create items by casting wish leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

AndyJames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #130 on: August 15, 2008, 01:32:51 AM »
You still have to get to level 17 before you can play with Wish, so that is the trade off.

Bier

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #131 on: August 15, 2008, 01:59:44 AM »
That's not a tradeoff...that's an excuse to get rid of all item creation feats and pick up other ones.  Weee, 17th level, and a mere 9th level spell slot subs for EVERY item creation feat, AND gets rid of all the time neccessary to make magic items?

Riiiight.

the 25k Limit is what Frank and K referred to as the 'wish economy', i.e. it's only items above that value that are truly valuable, otherwise, anyone with an efreeti in their back pocket can get something worth less then that.

The xp cost is there so that's not abused.

The 25,000 floater xp to have 5 wishes is not truly neccessary.  Basically you just make scrolls of wish to replace the ones that are not in your head.  Also, you can explicitly accumulate excess xp and NOT level up, if you so choose...levelling is not something forced on you, it's something you are allowed to do.

As for Miracle...this is the 'hand of god' spell, directly asking your god for help.  Wish has no such limitation.  Sure, it's fluff...but it's important fluff!

=======================

I like the idea of multiple bonuses, but you have to remember that bonuses are abused by ITEMS, more then by casters.  I.e. the 20 ioun stones of Exalted, Sacred, Perfection, Shield, equipment, circumstance, dodge, insight, luck, profane, vile, deflection, armor, natural AC, competence, morale, synergy, power, cover, and Haste bonuses to AC.  +1.  Each of which can be enchanted up to +5, some cheaper then others.

Stacking like this is very bad news.  It's why they got rid of so many bonuses in 4e, and 3.5 really needs to cut back on the possible abuse as well.  Best way is simply eliminating bonuses, second is having different ones cancel one another out, and third is having them not stack.

Das Bier!===Aelryinth
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 02:05:48 AM by Bier »

Ubernoob

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #132 on: August 15, 2008, 02:59:21 AM »
You still have to get to level 17 before you can play with Wish, so that is the trade off.
Level 17 is like level 20.




Most people never get there.

In all honesty, we shouldn't give a shit about the fact that a 17th level wizard doesn't need to have taken craft rod.

Why?  Who the fuck ever takes craft rod?  Really.  The only crafting feats ever taken are craft wonderous items and scribe scroll (if they don't trade it away).  Allowing wish to craft things quickly and without feats actually explains why half the items in the game exist at all.  It makes the setting more realistic.  Is that a bad thing?


Side note: I don't feel item creation should require feats.  Feats are for doing things that matter.  Item creation is just another way of saying "I get to allocate my wealth a little more productively."
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AndyJames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #133 on: August 15, 2008, 03:32:32 AM »
You still have to get to level 17 before you can play with Wish, so that is the trade off.
Level 17 is like level 20.




Most people never get there.
Precisely my point.

17th level + one of your two spells know that level to get to craft items. Woo...

Shadowhowler

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #134 on: August 15, 2008, 05:47:04 AM »
You still have to get to level 17 before you can play with Wish, so that is the trade off.
Level 17 is like level 20.




Most people never get there.
Precisely my point.

17th level + one of your two spells know that level to get to craft items. Woo...

 
Maybe if the spell did nothing but create items, that would be a viable argument to me... but since wish has many other uses, I find that dosn't hold water for me.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 06:29:46 PM by Shadowhowler »

Shadowhowler

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #135 on: August 15, 2008, 05:51:17 AM »

Most people never get there.

In all honesty, we shouldn't give a shit about the fact that a 17th level wizard doesn't need to have taken craft rod.

Why?  Who the fuck ever takes craft rod?  Really.  The only crafting feats ever taken are craft wonderous items and scribe scroll (if they don't trade it away).  Allowing wish to craft things quickly and without feats actually explains why half the items in the game exist at all.  It makes the setting more realistic.  Is that a bad thing?


Side note: I don't feel item creation should require feats.  Feats are for doing things that matter.  Item creation is just another way of saying "I get to allocate my wealth a little more productively."

 
 
I'm much more of a 2nd Ed player... I've only been playing 3.5 for a couple years now and I played 2nd Ed for over 16 years... so it took me awile to accept the Feats for making magic items. I could be persuaded to an alternate form of magic item crafting without feats... but I would still want to se a lot of time and effort go into it. Not just 'I cast wish, make magic item, wash, rinse, repeat.' I HATED the craft point alternate rule in UA for exactly that reason.

JaronK

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #136 on: August 15, 2008, 07:02:36 AM »
You still have to get to level 17 before you can play with Wish, so that is the trade off.

In theory.  If you allow players any way to get access to wish before that point, it's a much bigger issue.  One huge imbalance area is NPC monsters that are supposed to fight the players... they often have unbalanced abilities.  This is an issue because there are many ways for casters to make use of these abilities (Planar Binding, Summon Monster, Polymorph, Gate, Animate Dread Warrior, Create Undead) which leads to all sorts of issues.  Really, you need to remove any ability that gives large scale access to undetermined monster abilities.

JaronK

RobbyPants

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #137 on: August 15, 2008, 10:08:18 AM »
In theory.  If you allow players any way to get access to wish before that point, it's a much bigger issue.  One huge imbalance area is NPC monsters that are supposed to fight the players... they often have unbalanced abilities.  This is an issue because there are many ways for casters to make use of these abilities (Planar Binding, Summon Monster, Polymorph, Gate, Animate Dread Warrior, Create Undead) which leads to all sorts of issues.  Really, you need to remove any ability that gives large scale access to undetermined monster abilities.

JaronK
I've been working on that with some of the abilities listed.  I hope that I have Gate and the three Planar Binding spells covered.  Perhaps I could put a similar limitation on Summon Monster that I did on Planar Binding, and make it so summoned creatures lose access to spells and SLAs that are of greater or equal level to the spell that summoned them.

As for Polymorph, I've been working on something for that and Alter Self.  I still have to think about Shapechange.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
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Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
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Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #138 on: August 15, 2008, 11:15:20 AM »
I'd just allow Inherent bonuses to stack up to the usual +5 limit. I mean really. Is it that big a deal for it not to be all or nothing, save up 5 Wishes and cast them in 5 consecutive rounds or don't even bother trying because it will be wasted later? Instead of having to build up a bit of XP, make a Wish scroll, build up a bit more, make a second, then almost level so you can cover the XP costs of 3 more... you can get a more natural progression.

Imagine if magic swords could not be upgraded, so that if you bought a +1, and later got a +2 the +1 was completely wasted (can't even sell it) so that it becomes +10 or bust? Incredibly stupid? I'd say yes. So why would this be any different?
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Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

AfterCrescent

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #139 on: August 15, 2008, 11:25:37 AM »
I'd just allow Inherent bonuses to stack up to the usual +5 limit. I mean really. Is it that big a deal for it not to be all or nothing, save up 5 Wishes and cast them in 5 consecutive rounds or don't even bother trying because it will be wasted later? Instead of having to build up a bit of XP, make a Wish scroll, build up a bit more, make a second, then almost level so you can cover the XP costs of 3 more... you can get a more natural progression.

Imagine if magic swords could not be upgraded, so that if you bought a +1, and later got a +2 the +1 was completely wasted (can't even sell it) so that it becomes +10 or bust? Incredibly stupid? I'd say yes. So why would this be any different?
This. I agree completely, and I feel the magic sword example is perfect for why stacking wish should be allowed.
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