Author Topic: Balancing 3.5  (Read 144120 times)

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Mister_Sinister

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1020 on: September 09, 2008, 02:11:44 PM »
Quote from: RobbyPants
Wow.  I didn't realize you wrote up all of them!  I'll just hit on a few.

The Skill tag feats might actually work well, because in order to get a large benifit from them, you have to invest three or more feats.  I suppose three feats for +6 to six skills isn't that crazy.  You only get seven feats.

As for Cleave and Great Cleave, I like that you can cleave if you do enough damage.  This makes it useful at higher levels.  Still, it looks like you don't have anything in there for being able to cleave if you simply kill the opponent with less damage.  Also, I'm unsure what "conversion" is.  A house rule?  Lastly, you might want to put something in Great Cleave preventing a 3rd or later attack from striking an opponent you've already struck.

Toughness might just be simple enough to let it stack like you did.  Below level 10, it's weaker than the version I posted.  Beyond that, it's stronger, but how much will a difference of 10 HP make per feat spent at level 20?  Probably not much.

I still have work to do on my own feat rewrites, but I might have to borrow some ideas.  I'm assuing you don't mind becuase you posted them here?

Feel free to use them. They weren't doing any good sitting on my hard drive anyway!

The [Skill] feats were, quite honestly, the only way I could even remotely justify them even being there. I had considered wholesale deletion, but as I mentioned above, deletion is not fixing.

Ignore references to 'conversion' here - it is a houserule, and a very poor one. Add a clause about opponents dropping when dealt below the threshold for cleave, and remove the Great Cleave 'backspin' problem. Never noticed them before, sadly... :P

As far as Toughness is concerned, I went for simplicity. It is kinda weak, I admit, but I'm sure we can do something to shore up earlier levels - what about adding your Con mod to the hp that you gain off it?

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RobbyPants

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1021 on: September 09, 2008, 02:52:06 PM »
As far as Toughness is concerned, I went for simplicity. It is kinda weak, I admit, but I'm sure we can do something to shore up earlier levels - what about adding your Con mod to the hp that you gain off it?
Well, the nice thing about your approach is it scales directly with level.  If you want a little more oomf at earlier levels, you can do what I did with the feat and add a flat +5 HP in addition to the one per Hit Die.
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Prime32

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1022 on: September 09, 2008, 03:34:25 PM »
There's been a lot of debate on whether Power Attack should be 1:1 or 2:1, but I don't believe anyone suggested 3:2. Would that be reasonably powerful without being "OMGMUSTHAVE!"?
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1023 on: September 09, 2008, 03:42:54 PM »
1 - 1 = 0. It's still a must have, it just isn't near good enough anymore. Just make PA built in combat options. Keep the feats that build off it. While you're at it do the same thing to Combat Expertise, Improved whatever (you can do it without an AoO whenever you want, just the feat gives a +4) and so forth so you can actually do something that isn't hitting the thing with the other thing without having to blow 1 or more feats to acquire basic competency. Feat = tool to specialize, not required to function.
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Mister_Sinister

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1024 on: September 09, 2008, 03:46:45 PM »
1 - 1 = 0. It's still a must have, it just isn't near good enough anymore. Just make PA built in combat options. Keep the feats that build off it. While you're at it do the same thing to Combat Expertise, Improved whatever (you can do it without an AoO whenever you want, just the feat gives a +4) and so forth so you can actually do something that isn't hitting the thing with the other thing without having to blow 1 or more feats to acquire basic competency. Feat = tool to specialize, not required to function.

Sune, I agree with everything except the feats giving a flat bonus. I reckon 'Improved XXX' should give something more than that - perhaps some extra options or something. Not more numbers.

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Elennsar

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1025 on: September 09, 2008, 03:48:45 PM »
Perhaps allow a character to trip with using their AOO (for Improved Trip), for one thing.

I can't think of anything else inspired at the moment.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1026 on: September 09, 2008, 04:11:44 PM »
As long as you can trip without being screwed in multiple ways... Improved Trip giving +4, no chance you can be tripped in return or forced to drop your weapon... It's at least worth the attempt without it I think if you can't be AoOed.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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RobbyPants

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1027 on: September 09, 2008, 04:21:31 PM »
1 - 1 = 0. It's still a must have, it just isn't near good enough anymore. Just make PA built in combat options. Keep the feats that build off it. While you're at it do the same thing to Combat Expertise, Improved whatever (you can do it without an AoO whenever you want, just the feat gives a +4) and so forth so you can actually do something that isn't hitting the thing with the other thing without having to blow 1 or more feats to acquire basic competency. Feat = tool to specialize, not required to function.
I like that idea.  I'd keep them at 1:1 for everyone getting them.  I suppose you could do away with the two fighting defensively options if everyone gets Combat Expertise (or at least its effect).
My balancing 3.5 compendium
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Quotes
[spoiler]
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It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
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When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
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Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1028 on: September 09, 2008, 04:29:38 PM »
Well, it could still stack. Though it would be simpler and more efficient to just call 'fighting defensively' the current incarnation of Expertise. Then you just say PAing for x and/or fighting defensively for y and roll.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Nox_Noctis

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1029 on: September 09, 2008, 04:32:55 PM »
1 - 1 = 0. It's still a must have, it just isn't near good enough anymore. Just make PA built in combat options. Keep the feats that build off it. While you're at it do the same thing to Combat Expertise, Improved whatever (you can do it without an AoO whenever you want, just the feat gives a +4) and so forth so you can actually do something that isn't hitting the thing with the other thing without having to blow 1 or more feats to acquire basic competency. Feat = tool to specialize, not required to function.

I like this with a few qualifications:
I think that the ability requirements of the original feats should still apply to those options in combat: you would need 13+ strength in order to use the Power Attack option with your attacks, etc. I don't think someone with 4 strength, for instance, should be able to power attack with the same benefits as someone who would actually qualify normally.

Also, I'm in with the others that don't like the flat +4 bonus only from the feat. It makes the feats leave much to be desired.

EDIT: Fighting defensively should remain, even if this is a dumb reason, because characters with less than 2 BAB can gain +2 dodge, whereas a character with 1 BAB could only gain 1 from Combat Expertise (or 0 with 0 BAB).
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 04:35:59 PM by Nox_Noctis »
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1030 on: September 09, 2008, 05:01:52 PM »
Someone with 4 str has a lower to hit. They already can't PA for as much. Well, maybe if they use a finessed rapier or something, but who cares? Besides, it makes sense to let small stabbing weapons like that do the same thing.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
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Mister_Sinister

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1031 on: September 09, 2008, 05:02:42 PM »
Quote from: NoxNoctis
EDIT: Fighting defensively should remain, even if this is a dumb reason, because characters with less than 2 BAB can gain +2 dodge, whereas a character with 1 BAB could only gain 1 from Combat Expertise (or 0 with 0 BAB).

This makes plainly no sense at all. Why, if you suck at fighting, would you be better at fighting defensively than someone who doesn't?

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Elennsar

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1032 on: September 09, 2008, 05:04:26 PM »
I'm not entirely sure -what- Power Attack is supposed to represent, but small, stabbing weapons don't make sense with it. Rapiers (IRL) have to hit vitals to be worth a damn for damage. In D&D, crit.


As to fighting defensively...yeah. Drop. Drop. You want to be better able to defend than normal despite being a sucky fighter (low BAB)? Two words.

Total Defense.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1033 on: September 09, 2008, 05:13:12 PM »
Power Attack = head shot. Rapier = power thrust? Eh. Not like anyone that's not a Rogue uses those anyways.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
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RabidPirateMan

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1034 on: September 09, 2008, 05:44:58 PM »
daaAAACK!  So many feats!  Too fast!

Some of them need a lot of work compared to others- the Skill feats are simple, but things like Manyshot, Spring Attack and Power Attack need to be discussed...

Also, I thought we were going with core and working our way up?

Mister_Sinister

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1035 on: September 09, 2008, 05:46:59 PM »
daaAAACK!  So many feats!  Too fast!

Some of them need a lot of work compared to others- the Skill feats are simple, but things like Manyshot, Spring Attack and Power Attack need to be discussed...

Also, I thought we were going with core and working our way up?

This IS core. Aside from one or two things, all of that can be found in the SRD.

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DaveoftheRave

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1036 on: September 09, 2008, 06:21:34 PM »
Quote
This makes plainly no sense at all. Why, if you suck at fighting, would you be better at fighting defensively than someone who doesn't?

You can fight defensively and use Combat Expertise.

And if you have 5 or more ranks in tumble you get another +1.

Nox_Noctis

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1037 on: September 09, 2008, 06:29:02 PM »
Quote from: NoxNoctis
EDIT: Fighting defensively should remain, even if this is a dumb reason, because characters with less than 2 BAB can gain +2 dodge, whereas a character with 1 BAB could only gain 1 from Combat Expertise (or 0 with 0 BAB).

This makes plainly no sense at all. Why, if you suck at fighting, would you be better at fighting defensively than someone who doesn't?

You take a -4 penalty to attack in order to fight defensively to get +2 dodge. Combat Expertise lets you take a -2 penalty to attack for the same dodge bonus (assuming you have 2+ BAB).
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Tshern

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1038 on: September 09, 2008, 09:49:50 PM »
M_S: What's the point of Power of Faith? The way I read it, it makes half of the damage divine after all the reductions, which kind of takes away the point. Who cares if half of your damage is divine if your Energy ray (Fire) doesn't effect that Pit fiend?

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Re: Balancing 3.5
« Reply #1039 on: September 09, 2008, 10:59:18 PM »
1 - 1 = 0. It's still a must have, it just isn't near good enough anymore. Just make PA built in combat options. Keep the feats that build off it. While you're at it do the same thing to Combat Expertise, Improved whatever (you can do it without an AoO whenever you want, just the feat gives a +4) and so forth so you can actually do something that isn't hitting the thing with the other thing without having to blow 1 or more feats to acquire basic competency. Feat = tool to specialize, not required to function.

 
 
I have though about, for my game, making both power attack and Weapon Finesse just basic combat options instead of feats. I just felt that everyone should have the option to either: 1.  Swing REALLY damn hard at the cost of some accuracy. Or 2: Be able to your their moter cordination with weapons designed for it without a feat.