Author Topic: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?  (Read 12685 times)

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Bauglir

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2009, 03:44:43 AM »
Quote
  A more interesting question would be if a modern day murderer, rapist and pedophile suddenly produced a groundbreaking theory. Should we honour him as well, keeping in mind the accolades of society mean something very different to a living person than historical one?

Yes. But he stays in prison.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

veekie

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2009, 06:22:23 AM »
Quote
  A more interesting question would be if a modern day murderer, rapist and pedophile suddenly produced a groundbreaking theory. Should we honour him as well, keeping in mind the accolades of society mean something very different to a living person than historical one?

Yes. But he stays in prison.
Agreed, the crimes of the man are independent of his merits, and punishment still applies, as do the rewards of what he did. So he can get a Nobel Prize for Physics, attend the ceremony under guard, and then go back to jail.

Likewise, we shouldn't discard the fruits of research that used morally questionable means to attain. If someone did illegal human experimentation to come up with a new drug to cure cancer, we shouldn't junk that drug.
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EjoThims

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2009, 06:36:24 AM »
Agreed, the crimes of the man are independent of his merits, and punishment still applies, as do the rewards of what he did. So he can get a Nobel Prize for Physics, attend the ceremony under guard, and then go back to jail.

Likewise, we shouldn't discard the fruits of research that used morally questionable means to attain. If someone did illegal human experimentation to come up with a new drug to cure cancer, we shouldn't junk that drug.

Yea. It always disgusts me when people think that research that abused or killed people should just be ignored, meaning their deaths were nothing but cruelty and torture. Great way to add insult to injury.  :mad

Straw_Man

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2009, 10:23:11 AM »
Agreed, the crimes of the man are independent of his merits, and punishment still applies, as do the rewards of what he did. So he can get a Nobel Prize for Physics, attend the ceremony under guard, and then go back to jail.

Likewise, we shouldn't discard the fruits of research that used morally questionable means to attain. If someone did illegal human experimentation to come up with a new drug to cure cancer, we shouldn't junk that drug.

Yea. It always disgusts me when people think that research that abused or killed people should just be ignored, meaning their deaths were nothing but cruelty and torture. Great way to add insult to injury.  :mad

To play Devils Adv., I think their intention id to discourage it as recognising it as valid as tacit approval. I can see where their coming from, but I itch to break the Trilateral Ethics Conventions sometimes myself.
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EjoThims

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2009, 01:44:21 PM »

To play Devils Adv., I think their intention id to discourage it as recognising it as valid as tacit approval. I can see where their coming from, but I itch to break the Trilateral Ethics Conventions sometimes myself.

Ignoring something won't change what was done.

We can either use it at least mean something, or we can throw it away and have not even the faintest glimmer of good come out of it.

I truly cannot begin to understand anyone that would choose simply throwing it all away.

Bauglir

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2009, 12:40:11 AM »
It's an interesting situation. Making the threat in order to keep research humane is a just thing to do. However, to carry out the threat is unjust. Difficult to work with.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2009, 07:21:54 AM »
This sort of discussion only makes sense if we accept as fact that our current "moral" outlook is good, or at least better than those of our ancestors.

I personally have no evidence that we are in any way "morally" superior to those that have gone before us, we have simply become more adept at hiding the results of our barbarity from ourselves.

The idea that we should destroy part of the history of our species to satisfy the latest "moral" fad is not only the height of ignorant hubris , but also shows the light less depths that our species collective intellect has sunk to.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2009, 02:52:58 PM »
Quote
The idea that we should destroy part of the history of our species to satisfy the latest "moral" fad is not only the height of ignorant hubris , but also shows the light less depths that our species collective intellect has sunk to.

Our species' collective intellect is yellowdingo?
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veekie

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2009, 04:49:32 PM »
*Eyes 4chan regarding collective intellect*
Put a lot of people together and it goes to the lowest common denominator?
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Kuroimaken

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2009, 05:10:35 PM »
*Eyes 4chan regarding collective intellect*
Put a lot of people together and it goes to the lowest common denominator?

See, this is why I fucking hate math.

Always dragging humanity down.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2009, 07:32:27 PM »
*Eyes 4chan regarding collective intellect*
Put a lot of people together and it goes to the lowest common denominator?

See, this is why I fucking hate math.

Always dragging humanity down.

:rofl:
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skydragonknight

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2009, 05:45:26 AM »
I've totally ignored this part of the forums until now but the topic brought me in.

Fact, not opinion:
Current Scientific Research has to meet a list ethical guidelines that were set by a large group of scientists after WW2 Nazi Research(Nudenberg(?) Trials) as a bunch of words that summarized means "do no harm (to humans)" and revised after an experiment(I forget the name; I think Cambridge was doing it) where individuals were randomly assigned the role of prisoner and jailor and the jailors beat the snot out of the prisoners. The revised the thing to spell out psychological harm as well as physical.
Any research that doesn't meet these guidelines is not approved or accepted by the scientific community. As for Nazi research, all the research was discarded.

Illegal research cannot directly be used in the current system. What can be done is the results of illegal research can inspire new, "more ethical" research that does measure up to the international standards. But thems the brakes; if you don't measure up to the guidelines, ain't a pharmaceutical or manufacturing company in the industrialized world that's going to make your shit.

Should it be that way? I'll leave you to argue: I avoid moral arguments because the people who yell the loudest win. I'm just repeating what I learned in college. If I'm misinformed somehow, then I do apologize.

Edit: Cambridge Prison Study! Serious brain fart...I even gave all the information. Heh.

Edit2: And just for the record, I'm a mathematician, not a scientist. Numbers don't give a shit about morality.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 05:55:32 AM by skydragonknight »
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CountArioch

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2009, 06:11:18 AM »
You're thinking of the Stanford prison experiment, not the Cambridge one. 

Which was inspired by the Milgram experiment, where it showed that about two thirds of us would shock a man to death for no other reason than a man in a labcoat told us to.
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veekie

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2009, 06:37:11 AM »
Which was inspired by the Milgram experiment, where it showed that about two thirds of us would shock a man to death for no other reason than a man in a labcoat told us to.
Something that I'd have thought was fairly obvious based on the behavior of anonymous random people to each other on the internet. :D
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Kuroimaken

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2009, 06:57:03 AM »
Nuremberg trials.

But you know, I have to say I don't agree with people not using research stemming from inhuman experiments. The damage is done, not using the knowledge obtained would make it pointless. It's kinda like synthesizing artificial blood, testing it on humans, and then when/if a subject dies, people say "this didn't meet the criteria" and throw it away.

Meanwhile, the angry spirits of those who died to provide the knowledge and those who COULD have benefitted from the result and died too get a bigass FUCK YOU.

I just don't believe in retroactive morality (which, in a way, is like saying I don't believe in morality itself, since morality relies on hindsight to judge what is moral or not).
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For proof, look here:

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Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2009, 07:24:26 AM »
You're thinking of the Stanford prison experiment, not the Cambridge one. 

I always get those two confused. Thanks for the corrections, both of you. Americans aren't taught nearly as much history as they ought to be and when they're taught anything it's in college during some elective probably don't care much about, so they forget most of it.

I can almost understand why they decided to throw out the Nazi research at the Nuremberg Trials. If they kept it, some people might see that as a stamp of approval for that kind of thing and try to do something similar. Apparently imprisonment(or was it execution) of the researchers isn't enough of a discouragement for some people who will do anything to end up in the history books as the Discoverer of X...

I have the feeling this is one of those stupid moral things where there really isn't a good answer. Fuck that. I'm officially undecided.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Aristotle: Should we Burn his books?
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2009, 03:43:50 PM »
The Nuremberg Trials are actually trickier because they involve two things besides "just" illegal research: war crimes and Nazis.

Typically, anything of that related to war crimes tends to be A) largely ignored or tossed aside, or B) outright destroyed. The fact they are in direct violation of the Geneva convention (which most free-loving countries hold as sacred, almost like a bible) tends to be the heaviest argument for discarding them.

Naturally, I think I'm not the only one who thinks that the waste of human lives to attain knowledge is made worthless by subsequently throwing that knowledge away. So I wouldn't be surprised if the knowledge subject of the Nuremberg Trials actually survived and was made to show up later, via prettied-up research.

After all, faking research results to appear legal is easy, except when they're psychological stress tests.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!