Author Topic: Consolidated Binder Handbook  (Read 109448 times)

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Phaenix

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2010, 09:59:17 PM »
I posted the relevant text from the ELH, and I checked the errata and the FAQ from the ELH, and couldn't find anything explicitly requiring ECL 21 for [epic] feats. Maybe there's something in the Rules Compendium? I don't have that.

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2010, 10:11:59 PM »
I posted the relevant text from the ELH, and I checked the errata and the FAQ from the ELH, and couldn't find anything explicitly requiring ECL 21 for [epic] feats. Maybe there's something in the Rules Compendium? I don't have that.
Except for the conditions of selecting them.  That plainly says that you must be at least ECL 21 to select them, but it does seem as though you can DCFS them in, RAW.  Of course, DM's and most players will read "to select them" as "fulfill requirements".
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2010, 11:33:30 PM »
I'm more interested in the reasoning behind why Bloodlines supposedly advance EBL in that fashion. I'm just looking at stuff and thinking "The hell? Something doesn't match here".

The only way I can see is to think of each class granting its own EBL, but then they wouldn't add up...
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snakeman830

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2010, 12:07:12 AM »
I'm more interested in the reasoning behind why Bloodlines supposedly advance EBL in that fashion. I'm just looking at stuff and thinking "The hell? Something doesn't match here".

The only way I can see is to think of each class granting its own EBL, but then they wouldn't add up...
It's because Bloodlines advance things like caster level or anything else that uses class level as part of its calculation (and in this case EBL) as though you had X more levels in each class (where X is your Bloodline levels).  This ends up the same in a normal run, but when heavy multiclassing is involved where each class is working on the same thing, it gets broken.  For example, a Binder 12/KotSS 5/Major Bloodline 3 would have a final EBL of 23 (12+3 for Binder, +5+3 for KotSS).  Because of the multiclass, it adds an additional 3 levels to calculations.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Phaenix

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2010, 02:23:51 PM »
Snakeman hit the nail on the head. The calculation for this build works like this:

EBL
Binder 6 + Bloodline 3                                              9
KoSS 1 + Bloodline 3                                               4
SoD 1 + Bloodline 3                                                 4
Legacy Champion (adv. Binder) 1 + Bloodline 3          4
Legacy Champion (adv. KoSS) 1 + Bloodline 3           4
Legacy Champion (adv. SoD) 3 + Bloodline 3             6
Uncanny Trickster (adv. Binder) 1 + Bloodline 3         4
Uncanny Trickster (adv. SoD) 1 + Bloodline 3            4

=                                                                           39

Since both L.C. and U.T. have the class ability "Advance Another Class' Ability," by RAW Bloodlines stack separately.

Effective Binder Class Level (for Bonus Feat, Pact Augmentation, Soul Guardian): 17 (6+3+1+3+1+3)
Effective Scion of Dantalion Level (affects Knowledge rerolls, and the number of faces that show up on your torso): 14 (1+3+3+3+1+3)
Effective Knight of the Sacred Seal Level (affects nothing at all): 8 (1+3+1+3)
Effective Legacy Champion Level (affects bonus feat, Knowledge (History) check bonuses, Legacy Item-related abilities: 9 (6+3)
Effective Uncanny Trickster Level (affects Bonus skill tricks, though you can't really qualify for even the 3 you get naturally): 6 (3+3)

Hopefully, that's somewhat clearer. It's RAW, but it's definitely TO. Again, I think this build is probably less disruptive than an optimized Full caster, but it is pretty darn powerful.

I'm still hoping someone can provide a definite answer on qualifying for [epic] feats. Maybe I discovered a bigger TO loophole than I thought?

Kuroimaken

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2010, 02:41:16 PM »
Actually, a Binder can really benefit from increasing EBL like that. Taking up Improved Binding doesn't grant you advanced EBL after all, which means that even though you get access to yummy new vestiges, their abilities remain at sucky levels when you first get them.
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Phaenix

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2010, 02:48:45 PM »
Yep. The Bloodline helps out, even if you don't go for the epic feat interpretation. The problem is that the bonuses don't kick in until 9th level (8th with partial BAB), since you have to get into a PrC to get EBL>HD, and Bloodlines slow down qualification.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2010, 03:12:45 PM »
Yep. The Bloodline helps out, even if you don't go for the epic feat interpretation. The problem is that the bonuses don't kick in until 9th level (8th with partial BAB), since you have to get into a PrC to get EBL>HD, and Bloodlines slow down qualification.

It's all pretty par for the course though.

Noticeably, the biggest problem I see is the lack of skill points, but then again I'm a skill addict. The lack of HP doesn't help much either (since pact augmentations aren't a part of the EBL calculation).

Hmmm. All this talk about Bloodlines and multiclassing got me thinking about Dragonwrought Kobolds. Not the pick-Epic-feats-before-Epic kind, just the kind that gets four levels of Sorcerer casting in advance (Dragonwrought + Loredrake + Greater Draconic Rite of Passage). The spellcasting access blow is lessened considerably when you think that by the time you take all the bloodline levels you're actually still one level ahead of the vanilla sorcerer, and with more to show for it to boot.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2010, 04:13:37 PM »
you must be at least ECL 21 to select [epic feats]
Yes

by RAW Bloodlines stack separately.
No. You are clearly reinterpreting a very simple statement in the most overblown fashion possible.

It says "calculating any character ability based on his class levels" because it refers to each base ability independently. The only reason those PrC abilities are of any interest to you is because they in fact reference another ability. Without that, they are meaningless.

Holy shit. What is this, like the 6th bloodlines issue in 2 days. Fine I'll import that damn handbook.
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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A_Shadow_of_Life

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2010, 06:11:38 AM »
Does anyone have a copy of that Vestige and Prestige class made by James Jacob? The link doesn't work
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SKRP

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2010, 07:19:56 AM »
Here we goes. Everything made by James Jacob.

The Green Lady
[spoiler]The Green Lady is a relatively obscure vestige. She gives her summoners the ability to turn or rebuke undead, an enhancement to their Charisma, grants the use of many arcane magic items, allows you to utilize a first-level arcane spell of your choice as a spell-like ability, and the ability to recognize magic items for what they are.

Legend: Once a high priestess of Wee Jas, she was instrumental in carrying the faith of the Witch Goddess from the old Suel Imperium into the new world after the Rain of Colorless Fire. She died in the Cairn Hills, and a small cult dedicated to her memory remains there today.

Special Requirement:Manifestation: The Green Lady first appears as a beautiful Suel woman dressed in resplendent robes of the faith of Wee Jas.

Sign: Your eyes turn emerald green and glow faintly, and faint shimmers of green energy periodically ripple over your body.

Influence:Granted Abilities: The Green Lady infuses you with mastery over magic and death, and enhances your natural ability to influence and control your subjects.
Turn/Rebuke Undead: You can turn or rebuke undead as a cleric your effective binder level. As with a cleric, you turn if you are good and rebuke if you are evil. If you are neutral, you choose whether to turn or rebuke upon binding with the Green Lady and cannot later change your mind. If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead from other classes, your levels in those classes stack with your effective binder level for the purpose of determining your turning ability. Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds.
You gain a +2 bonus to Charisma.
Arcane Knack: You can use spell trigger items, such as wands and staves, as if you were a wizard of your effective binder level.
Gift of Magic: The Green Lady grants you the use of one 1st level wizard spell as a spell-like ability. You may use this spell-like ability at will, but once you have used it, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds. You must pick your spell-like ability when you bind the Green Lady, after which you cannot later change your mind. Your caster level with this spell-like ability is equal to your equivalent binder level.
Lore of Magic:Requirements
To qualify to become an apostle of the Green Lady, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria:

Alignment: Any lawful
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks
Special: Ability to bind the Green Lady
Special: Ability to turn or rebuke undead
Special: Must worship Wee Jas
Skills (6 + Int per level): Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion), Profession, Spellcraft
Hit Die: D8

Class Features
The following are class features of the apostle of the Green Lady prestige class.
Spells per Day: At every level, an apostle of the Green Lady gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not gain any other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If she had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an apostle of the Green Lady, she must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
Eternal Bondage (Ex): You no longer need to summon the Green Lady every day; you are bound to her constantly. You cannot choose a different vestige in her place. You can still attempt a binding check each day to negate her influence.
When you use the turn or rebuke undead ability granted by the Green Lady, you channel the energy in a unique way that blasts the undead with the displeasure of Wee Jas. You can use a turn attempt to deal 1d6 points of damage per effective turning level you possess to every undead creature within 30 feet. Each affected undead can attempt a Will save (DC 10 + your effective turning level + your Cha modifier) for half damage.
If you use a rebuke attempt, each undead within 30 feet is instead cured of 1d6 points of damage per effective turning level. This effect occurs instead of the normal result of a turn or rebuke attempt. You can still use these turn attempts in conjunction with divine feats, as normal.
Soul Binding: At each apostle level beyond 1st, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class. Your apostle levels and binder levels stack for the purpose of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, your ability to bind higher-level vestiges, and the number of vestiges you can bind. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a binder would have gained.
Visage of the Lady (Su): When you attain 2nd level, your body begins to resemble that of an imperious and beautiful (or handsome) person. Your skin grows pale and your clothing always seems in perfect repair and well fitting, and you move with an uncommon grace. Because of these changes, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class and a +1 circumstance bonus on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks. Mindless undead can sense the power of the goddess of death in you, and do not attack you except in self-defense, or when ordered to do so by their controller.
Destroy/Empower Undead:Ghostly Body (Su): Beginning at 4th level, you can transform yourself into a ghostly form once per day. This ability makes you incorporeal for a number of rounds equal to twice your apostle of the Green Lady level or until you return to physical form as a swift action.
When you attain 5th level, you can use a turn or rebuke attempt to deal 1d8 points of damage per effective turning level to every living creature within a 30 foot cone. This ability is usable once per day.[/spoiler]

Prak, the Mad

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2010, 09:48:49 PM »
what book are the bloodlines you guys are talking about from?

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2010, 09:49:09 PM »
what book are the bloodlines you guys are talking about from?
Unearthed Arcana.
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Prak, the Mad

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2010, 09:55:57 PM »
ok, thanks

Chilastra022

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2010, 12:42:50 PM »
I think the whole bloodlines debate has been done to death, when it comes down to it, its exploiting the way things are worded. Which there is nothing wrong with, you just dont get paid for it like lawyers do. xD Though frankly,  it all comes down to interpretation. To me, the way i interpret it, none of the binder prestige classes have vestige binding abilities that are based on levels, the base class, Binder, has a feature that improves with their level, called soul binding. KotSS, SoD, AM, and the like, however, do not have a class feature such as soul binding that increases with level.

They have class features that improve another class's feature, that however, does not mean it is a class ability based on levels. If it were a class ability based on levels, then each of those prestige classes would say Soul Binding (1 vestige), Said prestige class has an effective binder level equal to its class levels in said prestige class, rather than Soul Binding +1, at each level of said prestige class, your soul binding ability increases as if you had also gained a level in the base soul binding prestige class. Soul Binding +1 does not = Soul Binding (1 vestige), infact it has nothing related to character level, it is a class feature that upon attaining the level, improves another class's feature. Thus, the only class ability that bloodlines do apply to, is the Binder's soul binding ability.

Yes, the Soul Binding class feature of PrC's say that levels stack with binder levels for purposes of determining effective binder level, that however, still does not make it a class ability based on level. If it were, then there would be no reason to have Soul Binding +1 in every level of its progression. it'd be assumed that Soul Binding = class level, just like the binder progression. Does the Binder class have Soul Binding +1 every level? No, it simply has Soul Binding (1 vestige), Soul Binding (2 vestiges), to mark when you can bind more vestiges. Frankly, the same can be said about caster PrCs that progress caster level but not actually grant a spell list.

In the end, however, you read it the way you wish to read it.

Havok4

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2010, 01:03:03 PM »
The table does not matter in this case as the text of the class states that the for each level of the PrC you take your effective binder level increases which is an ability based on class level. Text trumps table. 

Chilastra022

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2010, 01:19:55 PM »
Yes, and every level it increases binder level because it has the soul binding +1. What im saying, is the soul binding +1 is -not- a class ability that increases with level, soul binding (1 vestige) that binder has is. There is a difference, one improves the ability by counting the prc as levels in binder, the other is the ability that improves with levels. Just like any spell casting prc that increases your caster level as if you had gained a level in a caster class you previously belonged to before acquiring the prc, has +1 arcane spell casting class or +1 divine spell casting class in its progression. They are class features that improve a spell casting class, they however, have no class abilities that improve with levels because they lack a spell list.

I just dont get how people are translating a class feature that improves another class ability with each level, as a class ability on its own that improves with class levels (and thus eligible for improvement from bloodlines). None of the prcs has the soul binding class ability, they have a class feature that improves the soul binding class ability of the Binder. None of the prcs grant the soul binding class ability. Binder does. Bloodlines are not applicable to the binder prestige classes.

Edit: (removes facetious comment)

It comes down to the definition of what is considered a class ability that improves with class levels.

Sorcs, Wizards, Druids, Clerics, etc etc, have the class ability to cast spells, which improve with class levels.

Binder has a class ability that improves with class levels which allows them to bind higher level vestiges and more vestiges at the same time.

Spell caster prestige classes have class features that improve a spell casting class's class ability to cast spells
Binder prestige classes have class features that improve the binder's ability to bind vestiges.

They all refer to the base class's class ability which improves with levels. They do not have that same class ability, they improve the class ability which is granted by the base class. The class feature that improves the base class's class ability does not, itself, improve as that class gains levels. The base class's class ability improves when the prestige class gains levels. I hope people start noticing the difference and stop the bloodline shinanigans, but as i mentioned, people will read it in a way thats most beneficial to themselves when they wish to read it in that way.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 02:06:58 PM by Chilastra022 »

Phaenix

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2010, 08:03:42 PM »
OK: Bloodlines are cheesy, and the use of bloodlines in the build I posted is TO, and it is exploitative. On those points, you'll find no argument.

However, I think your interpretation may be a bit off. PrCs that advance Soul Binding do not have a class feature called "Soul Binding +1" - that's just shorthand in the table. Neither is Soul Binding (1 Vestige) a class ability. It's a milestone of the advancement of the Soul Binding class ability. You need to look at the text of the ability. For example:

Quote from: ToM 59
Soul Binding: At each scion of Dantalion level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class.

None of the prcs has the soul binding class ability ...

Note the name of that ability in the ToM quote above. KoSS and Tenebrous Apostate have the same kind of wording, and they both have the Soul Binding class ability. Note also that it specifically references that it's based on the class level.

Now, the Bloodlines wording:

Quote from:  UA 19
Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on class levels.

Also,

Quote from:  UA 19
If the character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

There's no exception for PrCs in the bloodlines text.

As for the Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster abuse, I think you may have a stronger point. Since they do not have Soul Binding, for example, as an explicit class ability, you could argue that they don't gain bloodline advancement. However, they do end up advancing Soul Binding if applied to a class that has it, which is why I added the bloodline calculation to them in my TO build.

Chilastra022

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2010, 01:39:23 AM »
Mmmh, perhaps my wording is off, but what i was trying to get at, is the only class that grants the ability that improves with class levels, is the binder. All the other prestige classes improve on that class ability as if they had also gained a level in binder.

But notice they all refer to the binder as if it had also gained levels, that should be reference enough that the binder is the one with the class ability that improves with levels, rather than the prestige class granting the levels of improvement.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2010, 01:52:35 AM »
There is one small point that disagrees with you - namely, the description of what EBL entails.

I'm AFB so I can't confirm the exact text, but basically it says that for every EBL you gain, you gain access to new vestiges, more vestiges at once (when applicable, EBL 8 for two, 12 for 3 and so on) and each ability that relies on EBL to calculate damage/DC whatever goes up.

Notice that while it references soul binding as a class feature, you can actually enter pact magic PrCs through feats. However, the text doesn't detail what happens when you choose this entry method. By virtue of exception, the only thing we can deduce is that for each level gained in a PrC, you'd effectively gain one EBL - thus giving you access to the features stated.

Now, what exactly prohibits the PrC from acting in the most beneficial manner to the player every time?

The prosecution rests, Your Honor.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!