Author Topic: A half-dragon's brith  (Read 18819 times)

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SorO_Lost

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A half-dragon's brith
« on: August 04, 2008, 05:44:10 PM »
If a male dragon mated with a female human.
Would she lay an egg or give birth to living offspring?
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Dan2

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2008, 06:06:07 PM »
I would assume that she would give birth to "living" offspring.

On the other hand, I think that if you were to switch the genders of the two, the baby would hatch from an egg.

The female is the one that has to interact with the baby in whatever way her body can, so I think the race/species of the female would determine how the baby is "born".

Kuroimaken

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2008, 06:22:05 AM »
Quote
If a male dragon mated with a female human.
Would she lay an egg or give birth to living offspring?

Depends on what your DM finds kinkier. But I stand by Dan2's answer.
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Squirrelloid

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2008, 06:32:25 AM »
"Realistically"?  The embryo doesn't last a week before incompatibilities in the DNA cause an auto-abort.  The only way you're getting half-dragons is if magic is directly involved, and I somehow doubt this involves the mother carrying it to term.  Think crazy Dr. Frankenstein style laboratory and mad scientist wizard and a glass jar with electrodes or some shit like that.

The moment you ask that question (asking about the embryos development implies some commitment to a real world biological basis, possibly for suspension of disbelief), you've basically assumed that half-breeds don't occur without magical assistance.  (And the prevalence of HElfs and HOrcs sort of implies that elves and orcs are actually the same species as humans).
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Kuroimaken

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2008, 02:36:18 PM »
Quote
The moment you ask that question (asking about the embryos development implies some commitment to a real world biological basis, possibly for suspension of disbelief), you've basically assumed that half-breeds don't occur without magical assistance.  (And the prevalence of HElfs and HOrcs sort of implies that elves and orcs are actually the same species as humans).

Point one: Dragons are inherently magical creatures, so maybe their eggs/sperm have a "built-in embryo survival system"?

Point two: half-breeds do occur naturally in our world. Easiest case in point being horse/donkey pairings resulting in mules, which are infertile. Arguably, the various different races of dogs (and their pairings) might be considered as such too, since despite having the same base bone structure and organs they're of many different sizes and external make-up, and plenty of them have a predisposition to certain health problems and/or personalities (which is arguably a better analogy for half-elves/half-orcs).

But then again, I'm no expert; just tossing ideas out there.
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Squirrelloid

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2008, 05:03:17 PM »
Quote
The moment you ask that question (asking about the embryos development implies some commitment to a real world biological basis, possibly for suspension of disbelief), you've basically assumed that half-breeds don't occur without magical assistance.  (And the prevalence of HElfs and HOrcs sort of implies that elves and orcs are actually the same species as humans).

Point one: Dragons are inherently magical creatures, so maybe their eggs/sperm have a "built-in embryo survival system"?

When I think of dragons as being inherently magical, I mostly think of their ability to fly and their breath weapon.  They still have appropriate organs for sustaining life naturally, including a heart, lungs, liver, intestines, etc..., so my first inclination would be to assume that everything magical about them is described explicitly, with the intention that we otherwise assume they behave as normal animals in all other respects.  (ie, don't describe that which people can logically infer the answers to, but you have to describe those things which are unexpected).

Quote
Point two: half-breeds do occur naturally in our world. Easiest case in point being horse/donkey pairings resulting in mules, which are infertile. Arguably, the various different races of dogs (and their pairings) might be considered as such too, since despite having the same base bone structure and organs they're of many different sizes and external make-up, and plenty of them have a predisposition to certain health problems and/or personalities (which is arguably a better analogy for half-elves/half-orcs).

Dogs are all one species, Canis familiaris iirc.  I don't know how common interbreeding with wolves and dogs is (there are multiple species of wolf, not sure if dogs can breed with all of them, I know they can with grey wolves).  Interbreeding is a strong argument for it being the same species, in fact, the most common definition of species is 'can breed together' (biological species concept, some caveats apply).  At best, the two are very closely related sibling species.

Infertility of offspring means donkeys and horses are different species.  (This is one of those caveats - severe loss of fecundity prevents gene-crossing).  However, they are also very closely related species.

Which is where we bring this back to half-dragons.  Humans are not closely related to dragons, so their viability should be non-existent barring extensive magical assistance, and I doubt any creature could successfully bring them to term naturally even with magical assistance.  It would be like trying to cross a crocodile with an elephant - even if by some bizarre miracle you could get the egg to accept the sperm the thing would utterly fail to develop after the first week.

Whether orcs and elves are sub-species of humans or closely related sibling species depends on the viability of the hybrids.  As half orcs and half elves appear to have no issues reproducing with either species, I'm pretty sure that requires orcs and elves be sub-species of human (ie, same species, just with persistent notable morphological differences).

I should note that the biological species concept is the preferred one by most workers, even those who *can't use it* (eg, paleontologists) because then species' definitions tell you something about evolutionary dynamics.  Obviously, we can't tell which fossils could potentially breed, so while many people do use a morphological species concept in practice, they hope they're making the same divisions as if they could check interbreeding capability.
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Dan2

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2008, 05:20:28 PM »
I think you're underestimating the magical nature of dragons.

Dragons are deemed to be magical right down to their very blood.

After all, Sorcerers traditionally have draconic blood (or the blood of another sufficiently magical creature) and even that diluted connection to dragons allows them to manipulate magic.

If a dragon's blood is that magical, then it makes sense to me that their other *ahem*... bodily fluids... would also be quite magical.

Also, it's kinda futile to assert that dragon's couldn't breed with humans.  You're facing down the existence of half-dragons as a template and a monster and a number of assertions to the contrary in official sources... :-\

It isn't that hard for me to imagine how a dragon's cells might have the ability to alter, rearrange, and otherwise change both itself and it's "partner" cell in order to allow their "union" to survive in it's immediate surroundings; even without considering magic.

The logistics of creating or defining the specifics responsible for those characteristics would be a nightmare, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't possible.

But, to sum up the relevance to the point at hand, I don't think you can safely assume that they act as normal, nonmagical creatures in most senses.

Sorry, I know this rambles... :(

Squirrelloid

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2008, 06:31:44 PM »
(Some) People believe that human blood has magical properties too...  In the real world.  The magic here is not an inherent property of the blood, its a sympathetic property of its relationships to a particular group, species, or what not. 

I do not believe detect magic would make dragon blood glow in D+D.  YMMV.

Yes, there exists a half-dragon template.  I'm standing by magical Frankenstein's Monster as their mode of creation.

Look at it from the other direction - if dragons can interbreed with humans and the offspring are viable and fecund, then dragons and humans are the same species... I hope no one wants that.
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Dan2

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2008, 06:58:36 PM »
They're only the same species as science in the real world defines them, and as we know, science in the real world breaks down when applied to D&D in many scenarios.

The Frankenstein's Monster mode of creation flies in the face of all of the existing "descriptions" for how half-dragons come to be.  They say that a dragon "mates" with another creature, not that a dragon creates an abomination to life and science with another creature... :lol

If the person had the feat Vatic gaze, I'd make dragon blood glow.  It's simply too faint for most casters to catch on.

What some of the people believe about human blood in the real world isn't very relevant.

atrocity05

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2008, 07:09:50 PM »
Think I'd have to agree with Dan2 on this point.  Dragons are magical and knowing from many many arguments I've had against him about the parallels between the real world and the D&D world, D&D doesn't always follow normal rules. 

So yeah, I would assume there would be some sort of magic that allows that to work.

Squirrelloid

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2008, 08:01:47 PM »
They're only the same species as science in the real world defines them, and as we know, science in the real world breaks down when applied to D&D in many scenarios.

The Frankenstein's Monster mode of creation flies in the face of all of the existing "descriptions" for how half-dragons come to be.  They say that a dragon "mates" with another creature, not that a dragon creates an abomination to life and science with another creature... :lol

Yes, its really easy to write that, because what the writer wants is dragon/human hybrids.  The problems are legion.

Dragons have cloaca.  How the hell do they mate with humans?

Dragon sperm isn't going to be accepted by a human egg.  Human sperm isn't going to be accepted by a dragon egg.

Dragons lay eggs, humans give birth live.

Dragons have a rather different cranial arrangement with humans that is utterly incompatible, including, among other things, the ear bones of a dragon are fused to the jaw (which leads to them being differently located about the skull as well), the musculature for working the jaw is arranged differently (don't have the right temporal fenestra), they have two temporal fenestrae instead of one, and neither of their temporal fenestrae are homologous to the mammalian one.  I could go on, the list of differences is rather exhaustive and would probably take pages. 

Dragons have a three-chambered heart, mammals a four-chambered heart.

Teeth differences - dragon teeth are undifferentiated cutting blades.  Mammalian teeth are highly specialized.  An ad hoc intermediary is going to be non-functional.

Scales vs. skin

Dragons don't have sweat glands, mammals do.

hexapod vs. tetrapod

Cloaca = urinary, intestinal, and genital tract in one tube.  Mammals partition these into three tubes.  (two of them happen to rejoin in males, but they are distinct tubes within the body prior to that even then).

-------------

And that's an abbreviated list.

Seriously, 'magicking' that away is going to take deliberate effort and a guided purpose.  You can't just handwave it away.

Quote
What some of the people believe about human blood in the real world isn't very relevant.

Except the language used to describe how sorcerors derive power from their 'blood' is in the same terms - its based on ancestry/sympathetic connection, not a physical property of the blood.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 08:03:45 PM by Squirrelloid »
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atrocity05

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2008, 08:08:53 PM »
Quote
Dragons have cloaca.  How the hell do they mate with humans?

Dragon sperm isn't going to be accepted by a human egg.  Human sperm isn't going to be accepted by a dragon egg.

Dragons lay eggs, humans give birth live.

Dragons have a rather different cranial arrangement with humans that is utterly incompatible, including, among other things, the ear bones of a dragon are fused to the jaw (which leads to them being differently located about the skull as well), the musculature for working the jaw is arranged differently (don't have the right temporal fenestra), they have two temporal fenestrae instead of one, and neither of their temporal fenestrae are homologous to the mammalian one.  I could go on, the list of differences is rather exhaustive and would probably take pages.

Dragons have a three-chambered heart, mammals a four-chambered heart.

Teeth differences - dragon teeth are undifferentiated cutting blades.  Mammalian teeth are highly specialized.  An ad hoc intermediary is going to be non-functional.

Scales vs. skin

Dragons don't have sweat glands, mammals do.

hexapod vs. tetrapod

Cloaca = urinary, intestinal, and genital tract in one tube.  Mammals partition these into three tubes.  (two of them happen to rejoin in males, but they are distinct tubes within the body prior to that even then).



To be fair, they are shapeshifted when this occurs so, that's an altogether different argument and is irrelevant to the current question.

The more important thing is how the fetus and such would develop which would have to depend on the mother of the child.  However, since a dragon is magic, mixing it's DNA can do many different things.  Who knows exactly why, it's magic!!

Dan2

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2008, 08:21:28 PM »
You make plenty of good points.  If we were trying to imagine how this could happen in the real world, as if to re-create it then all of the things you posted would become monumental problems.

The problem with that is that we're in a fantasy setting.
Dragons are decidedly magical creatures.
The effects of magic on this sort of scenario can't be scientifically predicted, especially not with science that precludes magic as a fundamental force.
The writer gets to decide how these things work.

You're right.  The writer wants a human-dragon hybrid, and because he wants it, he can (and does) say that magic makes it happen.

It's a cop out on their part, but they made the game, and they determined how it happens.

Squirrelloid

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2008, 09:23:45 PM »
To be fair, they are shapeshifted when this occurs so, that's an altogether different argument and is irrelevant to the current question.

That really only solves the how part - the rest are structural inconsistencies which will each try to assert themselves during development, probably with disastrous results.  Unless you're claiming polymorph alters your DNA - in which case there are no half-dragons, because the dragon was human at the time.

Quote
The more important thing is how the fetus and such would develop which would have to depend on the mother of the child.  However, since a dragon is magic, mixing it's DNA can do many different things.  Who knows exactly why, it's magic!!

This is also in response to Dan2:

The thing is, magic only does what it explicitly says it does.  For everything else we need to assume real world mechanisms and explanations.  I mean, I'm pretty sure we'd reject the notion that the stork brings babies in the D+D world barring text which explicitly says "a stork brings babies".  (Admittedly, that would solve the half-dragon problem... although it makes one wonder where the stork gets the babies from).

I mean, if we're free to assume anything, then humans may very well lay eggs.  Its already common knowledge that the rules never define any negative effects for the "dead" condition, so its clear the writers expect us to apply some real-world logic and intuition.  In fact, if nothing works like in reality then it becomes impossible to play, because the players don't have any rational expectation for anything.

I mean, we could assume that there is no gravity, things just 'stick' to the world.  And shooting an arrow doesn't apply force on the shaft, rather the bow user casts a magic spell by drawing and releasing such that the arrow travels towards the target.  We could imagine a whole lot of crazy, except then we have the problem of exceptionalism - with no general rules, no one actually knows what happens if you try to lift something with a lever.  This is the problem with magic realism as a general mechanism, because only the author/DM understands how anything functions at all.  While it can work for literature and cinema, its really awful for a cooperative game.

The writer never says that 'magic occurs'.  There's no rules or fluff which explains how gestation of half-dragons works (afaik - not an expert on the Draconomicon).  The writer just says they 'mate' and leaves it at that.  Which leaves us to fill in the details.  Now, either we assume real world processes apply unless something intervenes, in which case all half-dragon fetuses abort.  (And we get half-dragons from when there's an intervention - quite possibly handled by the dragon itself)  Or we assume that real world biology never applies to anything at all, and whenever the topic of reproduction comes up we have lots of unanswered questions.

And AFAIK, dragon-dragon reproduction is perfectly mundane and works normally.  We know it results in eggs that hatch baby dragons.  What we know of dragon mating rituals isn't actually all that different from some birds.  No (professional) D+D writer, to my knowledge, has bothered to describe dragon sex, but given their equipment and relatives we can make some reasonable deductions.  If all this is perfectly mundane, why should we invoke exceptionalism in a dragon-human pairing?
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Prak, the Mad

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2008, 11:20:39 PM »
"Realistically"?  The embryo doesn't last a week before incompatibilities in the DNA cause an auto-abort.  The only way you're getting half-dragons is if magic is directly involved, and I somehow doubt this involves the mother carrying it to term.  Think crazy Dr. Frankenstein style laboratory and mad scientist wizard and a glass jar with electrodes or some shit like that.

The moment you ask that question (asking about the embryos development implies some commitment to a real world biological basis, possibly for suspension of disbelief), you've basically assumed that half-breeds don't occur without magical assistance.  (And the prevalence of HElfs and HOrcs sort of implies that elves and orcs are actually the same species as humans).
you're really hung up on this kind of thing, aren't you? DNA doesn't even nesseccarily exist in D&D, of course it does in your game if you care, but I don't, I say "ok, dragon bonks someone, theres a chance of pregnancy" because in D&D, magic is like a form of radiation, specifically one that is FUCKING EVERYWHERE. If magic isn't "FUCKING EVERYWHERE" where, pray tell, do Sorcerers come from in your game?

Quote
Dragons have cloaca.  How the hell do they mate with humans?
species with cloaca, as far as I understand, generally have otherwise fairly similar reproductive systems to, well, pretty much everything else.
wikipedia away!!!!

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You can't just handwave it away
why not? none of that makes much mechanical difference. it can be handwaved just like, say, periods. It doesn't fucking matter from a mechanical perspective so handle it as you will. Does the female fighter in your group have to stop and change her hipwrap every few hours(or whatever, forgive me for inaccuracy there...) for one week each month?


hell for all that... there may not even be fucking species in D&D! go read up on mideval ideas on biology and see how people in D&D seriously probably think. Or even better, ancient greek because of how society functions....

Quote
If all this is perfectly mundane, why should we invoke exceptionalism in a dragon-human pairing?
because it's needed to make a fire-breathing, flying 40 ton psuedo reptilian that probably actually has a lot more in common with mammals? maybe? I mean, I could be wrong, there could be a perfectly mundane explanation for all that, but... I doubt it.

AndyJames

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2008, 12:00:38 AM »
I think it is written explicitly in the Half-Dragon MM entry that Dragons, *because of their magical nature*, can breed with just about anything.

So, umm... Can we can this debate now? Please?

Kuroimaken

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2008, 02:09:13 AM »
Quote
I think it is written explicitly in the Half-Dragon MM entry that Dragons, *because of their magical nature*, can breed with just about anything.

Confirmed. It's the very first line, even. The second line is even more explicit.

The first line of the template only notes whatever the dragon is bonking must be corporeal and living.

Quote
Conception usually occurs while the dragon has
changed its shape; it then abandons the crossbreed offspring.

So we can assume that during this period, his physiology is essentially human, allowing the magical jizz to work the way it's supposed to.

AndyJames has a point. It's not like such a process has any in-game impact anyway, possibly short of shocking the crap out of the players. Real world science and D&D DO NOT MESH. Otherwise, I'd REALLY like you to explain to me how the hell can an adventurer survive a Lightning Bolt, or even DODGE one entirely for that matter (it's visible lightning, which means it's over 10000 volts, and it travels WAY too quickly for someone to conceivably dodge it. A 100 volt shock to the spine can instantly kill a person, for reference).
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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2008, 11:01:06 PM »
Who said it is 10,000 volts? It could be several charge points within the path using a much lower voltage jumping from point to point or something. Hence why Lightning Bolt's damage scales up (or down) rather than a set in stone 10,000 volt 20d6 blast or whatever.

Anyway, Dan's answer sounds like a good one so I have my answer.
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Prak, the Mad

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2008, 01:18:23 AM »
Quote
I think it is written explicitly in the Half-Dragon MM entry that Dragons, *because of their magical nature*, can breed with just about anything.

Confirmed. It's the very first line, even. The second line is even more explicit.

The first line of the template only notes whatever the dragon is bonking must be corporeal and living.

Quote
Conception usually occurs while the dragon has
changed its shape; it then abandons the crossbreed offspring.

So we can assume that during this period, his physiology is essentially human, allowing the magical jizz to work the way it's supposed to.

AndyJames has a point. It's not like such a process has any in-game impact anyway, possibly short of shocking the crap out of the players. Real world science and D&D DO NOT MESH. Otherwise, I'd REALLY like you to explain to me how the hell can an adventurer survive a Lightning Bolt, or even DODGE one entirely for that matter (it's visible lightning, which means it's over 10000 volts, and it travels WAY too quickly for someone to conceivably dodge it. A 100 volt shock to the spine can instantly kill a person, for reference).
yeah, that was my point actually, but exactly.

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Re: A half-dragon's brith
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2008, 01:59:12 AM »
Real world science can be applied to D&D, but it requires some pseudo-science. I will address some of the brought up topics.

DNA: First, we look at the core templates that involve "Half-" in the name. We can then look at the creature that are responsible. The dragon is the most material based of the three. Let's take magic almost completely out of the picture. Based on the fact that dragons are not going around impregnating women in a draconic form (either because of positioning or science) we can assume that when a dragon changes shape and proceeds to fornicate with a being of the same species, its DNA, or at least sperm/eggs, changes to that of its assumed shape. There is no real science that can explain that, so we can say "magic" for now. A fiend or celestial is magical by nature, or by the nature of the plane they are currently on. They are outsiders, they come from a realm different in almost every way from the material plane. Seeing as any evil or good outsider can mate with something successfully, we can assume that it is because plane traveling changes your eggs or sperm to the same kind of Omni-DNA that a dragon has while changed. A female elf can go to the abyss and mate with a incubus and have successful offspring, but a incubus cannot successfully mate with a balor (or at least we have no evidence to the contrary). The only outsiders that seem to be able to mate with another outsider from their plane is the "unique" ones. A demon lord can mate with a demon lord successfully.

Species: First, we can note that there are "half-" races. This implies that certain species can successfully mate with another. We will first look at an elf and a human. The fact that the half-elf exists implies some form of shared DNA patterns that make it possible to mate. Seeing as the is no actual elf/orc (at least, not yet evidenced), we can assume that only the human can mate with various races. The elf and orc may have a certain pattern in their DNA that can be translated with human DNA. This allows eggs/sperm to translate DNA and cause the child to have both human and orc/elf traits.

Magic: A simple answer is that magic is the process of manipulating the forces of the universe to create a desired effect. A long answer requires complex scientific terms that i do not know.
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