Author Topic: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)  (Read 8148 times)

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SorO_Lost

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2008, 02:33:20 AM »
My point was that Collision is a poor use of +2 in special abilities. Even elemental damage (such as acid/sonic if you worry about resistant/immune monsters) is better than the flat +5. Even force damage is cheaper than an extra +5 damage.
I posted it because it is a decent generic source of damage.
Yeah Holy is better, if you are good aligned.
Yeah (maybe) Vicious is better, if you have HP stealing abilities or 500+ HP.
Yeah Acidic is better, but that is only +3.5 on average and I'd have to look around for another damage type.
Yeah Merciful deals an untyped 1d6 damage, but its worthless in an undead game.

And so on. Given the little knowledge we know, Collision is hassle free way of bonus damage tossed out as an idea. Or would have been hassle free until people started making some kind of big deal out of it and derailing so they can start a "collision sucks" topic.

You still only have a 5% chance of activating the wand. Not the 50% chance you purported.
In 20ish rounds one of two things happen. It fails or it works. Thats 50% to me. Let me know if you see another 18~98 outcomes that are not based on bad luck rolling and missing that 1 or 20 that retrying will simple skip over.

And, if you are running away enough to need to 'fill in' for the primary spellcasters, you/they are doing something wrong.
That part pisses me off. I have not said fill in, in fact I have even said "Which is a long way from pretending to be batman with your wandbelt". Try reading my posts before jumping on your 'wizards are uber, play em right noob." bandwagon.

Tell me in one paragraph how investing two skill points in UMD so you can use Restoration or CLW/Vigor wands carried by the rest of the party (or your self, geez its only 750gp for Vigor) in case they cannot is the worst idea you have ever heard.



Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Uriel_Ventris

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2008, 04:32:02 AM »
I posted it because it is a decent generic source of damage.
Yeah Holy is better, if you are good aligned.
Yeah (maybe) Vicious is better, if you have HP stealing abilities or 500+ HP.
Yeah Acidic is better, but that is only +3.5 on average and I'd have to look around for another damage type.
Yeah Merciful deals an untyped 1d6 damage, but its worthless in an undead game.

And so on. Given the little knowledge we know, Collision is hassle free way of bonus damage tossed out as an idea. Or would have been hassle free until people started making some kind of big deal out of it and derailing so they can start a "collision sucks" topic.

Yeah, because everybody makes a N or E character.
Easy way to bypass the self-damage from Vicious: DR. You aren't going to find a better +1 weapon enchantment that deal +7 damage on average. Not to mention the fact that you are more likely to kill them faster than you would kill yourself.
I said Acidic+Sonic damage, +7 is better than +5 for the same price.
Yeah, because every game out there has only undead foes.

Given the fact that Collision if overpriced, you're welcome to your own opinion. But don't say that it's the bast source of damage when in fact it isn't.

Quote
In 20ish rounds one of two things happen. It fails or it works. Thats 50% to me. Let me know if you see another 18~98 outcomes that are not based on bad luck rolling and missing that 1 or 20 that retrying will simple skip over.

If everyone did math like you, the whole world would be in trouble.

Quote
That part pisses me off. I have not said fill in, in fact I have even said "Which is a long way from pretending to be batman with your wandbelt". Try reading my posts before jumping on your 'wizards are uber, play em right noob." bandwagon.

How is doing 'emergency restorations on the spellcasters' not filling in for them? Sure, not everyone who plays D&D is a clever optimizer. But do you honestly wait for the spellcaster(s) to be incapacitated before 'getting out of Dodge'?

Quote
Tell me in one paragraph how investing two skill points in UMD so you can use Restoration or CLW/Vigor wands carried by the rest of the party (or your self, geez its only 750gp for Vigor) in case they cannot is the worst idea you have ever heard.

Unlike your DM, who must be daft to let you sit there saying "I UMD this wand/scroll/etc until it works, however long that takes.", most DM's will want you to actually roll the dice. Not use the "it's gotta work sometime" line of thought. Unless you have a positive Cha modifier, or UMD as a class skill, why take the risk of letting your comrades bleed out while you try and figure out how to use the wand (in game terms)? You would be better off being the party potion-wagon than have the party rely on you if the spellcasters do get in a tight spot (unconscious/dead/etc).

And back to the "you know it's a scroll of X, so you don't have to decipher it", I have yet to see someone actually have a character not metagame this facet of scroll use. For a non-spellcaster, a scroll of CLW looks like any other scroll. And if you have more than one scroll, you aren't logically going to be able to pull out (not without metagaming) the one you want from a case full of them.

carnivore

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2008, 08:45:58 AM »
Yeah, because everybody makes a N or E character.
i tend to always make Good aligned characters .... most of the foes that i have seen during Gameplay that have been trying to kill my characters have been Evil aligned ............. in fact a Majority of Monsters(that want to hurt you) seem to have an Evil alignment.... thus Holy has more effect during gameplay

Quote
Easy way to bypass the self-damage from Vicious: DR. You aren't going to find a better +1 weapon enchantment that deal +7 damage on average. Not to mention the fact that you are more likely to kill them faster than you would kill yourself.
since the damage from Vicious is untyped, and empathic in nature("a flash of disruptive energy that resonates between the opponent and the wielder")..... it should Bypass DR completely(DR is unapplicable vs Energy), ... still you dont want to damage yourself while you are injuring the enemy... thats like giving them free attacks on you..... the more you attack the more damage you recieve .... its not so bad when you face a single target, but when facing multiple targets.. you can kill yourself when attacing them
Quote
I said Acidic+Sonic damage, +7 is better than +5 for the same price.
this is true if your DM does not require Rolling the Dice, and uses Averages....... few do that, i have found that when rolling damage .... it is better to have a solid number like Collision gives than a variable, better consistency = more reliable = effective
Quote
Yeah, because every game out there has only undead foes.
no ..... but they are the MOST Common foes in Published Adventures ..... and even in home brew settings, they tend to be used a lot
Quote
Given the fact that Collision if overpriced, you're welcome to your own opinion. But don't say that it's the bast source of damage when in fact it isn't.
it is YOUR Opinion the Collision is overpriced ...... i dont agree, nor do SorO_Lost and others

Quote from: Uriel_Ventris
Armor can't be sundered at all...
no ... this is incorrect... notice:

from SRD here:
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/specialAttacks.html

Quote from: SRD
Attacking held objects other than weapons or shields is covered below.)

Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points

Weapon or Shield Hardness HP1
Light blade 10 2
One-handed blade 10 5
Two-handed blade 10 10
Light metal-hafted weapon 10 10
One-handed metal-hafted weapon 10 20
Light hafted weapon 5 2
One-handed hafted weapon 5 5
Two-handed hafted weapon 5 10
Projectile weapon 5 5
Armor special2 armor bonus x 5
Buckler 10 5
Light wooden shield 5 7
Heavy wooden shield 5 15
Light steel shield 10 10
Heavy steel shield 10 20
Tower shield 5 20
1 The hp value given is for Medium armor, weapons, and shields. Divide by 2 for each size category of the item smaller than Medium, or multiply it by 2 for each size category larger than Medium. Worn Object:


for me .... i tend to like these Additional enhancements:

+1:
Bane ....... vs Undead or Evil outsiders .... since many BBEG are one of these, or thier minions are

+2:
Disarming ..... thus even a halfling with Dagger can disarm a Giant with a Greatsword
Paralyzing .... even though it has a save vs effect.. it can be useful vs many enemies CR 10 and below... even vs stronger opponents
Skillful ... allows Wizards to use Greatswords as well as any 3/4 BAB character.... and it gives Extra Itterative attacks... since it GIVES you 3/4 BAB(for that weapon only)
Vampiric ..... this is one of my favorites.... harm them and heal self with every hit, i try to have it on every melee weapon

+3:
Banishing ..... with an Outsider heavy campaign... this is great


 :D



Gregger

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2008, 09:04:02 AM »
Carnivore, look at the last line of text you quoted from the SRD. 

Quote

Runestar

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2008, 09:14:02 AM »
It is worth noting that collision damage is multiplied on a crit, unlike flaming. It is not all that stellar, but not sucky either, more like the standard to which +2 weapon enhancements which deal damage ought to be compared with.  :)
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Alastar

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2008, 10:47:13 AM »
hmmm.... the thri kreen has 6 weapons, so, making them all +1 (lotsa other things) is gonna get expansive fast.

Thanks for all the great help.

We DO have a dmm chain cleric with us.

AfterCrescent

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2008, 10:53:22 AM »
Carnivore, look at the last line of text you quoted from the SRD. 

Quote
I believe he was replying to the quote that you cannot sunder armor at all and was disproving it. Armor has statistics and can be sundered, not while being worn, but it still can be sundered.
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carnivore

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2008, 01:39:21 PM »
Carnivore, look at the last line of text you quoted from the SRD. 

Quote
i was responding to the statement: "Armor can't be sundered at all..."... i was not refering to Worn armor

opps ninjaed by aftercrescent
 :D

Gregger

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2008, 02:38:27 PM »
What other reason would anyone need to sunder armor?  Honestly think about the question.  Its down to semantics because in all practical applications, armor can not be sundered.  I can't think of any situation where sundering a piece of non-worn armor would be worth value.

Alastar

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2008, 03:28:51 PM »
When you're ambushing a knight camp?

Knight: Squire, get my armor!
Squire: Sir, it's been sundered!!
Knight: What, that,s impossible!!!
Squire: Well... according to the phb, you can!
Knight: WhaT??? LET ME SEE THAT!!! ..... well I,ll be....

carnivore

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2008, 05:03:20 PM »
When you're ambushing a knight camp?

Knight: Squire, get my armor!
Squire: Sir, it's been sundered!!
Knight: What, that,s impossible!!!
Squire: Well... according to the phb, you can!
Knight: WhaT??? LET ME SEE THAT!!! ..... well I,ll be....

thats great ..... also works well when you are going thru the BBEG lair and find his Chaotic Evil Armor(with mega-boosting abilities, that almost makes him Invulnerable when he wears it) just hanging in his room....  its Sunder time ;)

 :D

SorO_Lost

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2008, 06:28:41 PM »
thats great ..... also works well when you are going thru the BBEG lair and find his Chaotic Evil Armor(with mega-boosting abilities, that almost makes him Invulnerable when he wears it) just hanging in his room....  its Sunder time ;)

 :D
I'd switch it with bloody leather armor stolen off one of his minions with a dagger sticking out of it and sell the BBEG's armor later on.

No sense in destroying my profits right?

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Another really (broken-level) good weapon enchantment is Wrathful Healing (E&A), if you can get a DM to allow that you really don't die from damage. Ever.

I heard Magebane took a hit and got nerfed, but how?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

AfterCrescent

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2008, 10:43:36 PM »
No sense in destroying my profits right?
Depends... If there was an artificer in the group, I'd be inclined to agree. But the called armor property for a measely 2K gold means just about any BBEG should have it, so sundering ensures he can't use it when needed.
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Uriel_Ventris

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2008, 02:02:35 AM »
It's pointless to keep arguing about opinions, so I cede to SorO_Lost, if just to get things back on topic.

I heard Magebane took a hit and got nerfed, but how?

Now it only works vs arcane casters (as before), and invocation users.

No more against SLA-possessors.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2008, 03:00:16 PM »
Called only works if someone else doesn't possess it. Why waste money? Steal that shit. All you have to do is wear it for a moment, and take it off. Or ensure it isn't on the same plane... what high level group isn't making use of extradimensional storage, again?
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

AfterCrescent

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2008, 11:04:12 PM »
Called only works if someone else doesn't possess it. Why waste money? Steal that shit. All you have to do is wear it for a moment, and take it off. Or ensure it isn't on the same plane... what high level group isn't making use of extradimensional storage, again?
You got me on the extradimensional storage space, but full plate, has to be fitted to the character to be worn. You can't just steal it and wear it to negate calling. :D
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2008, 11:20:24 AM »
I thought that only applied to the non magic ones, and the magic ones automatically adjusted to fit? Since it has to be magical to be Called...
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

AfterCrescent

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2008, 11:31:58 AM »
I could be wrong, but I thought magical armor only changes size to fit you as you increase/decrease size. Full plate still has to be fitted...  ??? I could be wrong, though.
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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2008, 09:46:00 AM »
Armors do not resize automagically : cf MIC p219. They do adapt to fit a body of the same size that has a similar shape (ibid). The MIC text actually doesn't mention plate... so I guess it doesn't need to be refitted either when it's magical.
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Alastar

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Re: Magic items for melee'ers (MiM for short)
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2008, 01:26:51 PM »
In my game, we just say it fits you if you're the same size ;)