Author Topic: The Druid Handbook  (Read 551683 times)

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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #360 on: March 11, 2011, 09:32:12 PM »
Quote
Dwarves are familiar with valuable items of all kinds, especially those made of stone or metal.

Quote
Gnomes are innately familiar with illusions of all kinds.

Quote
Locate Creature
Divination
Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Duration: 10 min./level
This spell functions like locate object, except
this spell locates a known or familiar
creature.
You slowly turn and sense when you are
facing in the direction of the creature to be
located, provided it is within range. You
also know in which direction the creature
is moving, if any.
The spell can locate a creature of a specific
kind (such as a human or a unicorn)
or a specific creature known to you. It
cannot find a creature of a certain type
(such as humanoid or animal). To find a
kind of creature, you must have seen such
a creature up close (within 30 feet) at least
once.
Running water blocks the spell. It
cannot detect objects. It can be fooled by
mislead, nondetection, and polymorph spells.
Material Component: A bit of fur from a
bloodhound.

Quote
Sending
Evocation
Level: Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: See text
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round; see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You contact a particular creature with
which you are familiar and send a short
message of twenty-five words or less to the
subject. The subject recognizes you if it
knows you. It can answer in like manner
immediately. A creature with an Intelligence
score as low as 1 can understand
the sending, though the subject’s ability to
react is limited as normal by its Intelligence
score. Even if the sending is received,
the subject is not obligated to act upon it in
any manner.
If the creature in question is not on the
same plane of existence as you are, there is
a 5% chance that the sending does not
arrive. (Local conditions on other planes
may worsen this chance considerably, at
the option of the DM.)
Arcane Material Component: A short piece
of fine copper wire.

Example uses of the word 'familiar' in the Player's Handbook. Dwarves can probably operate the most complex machinery, assuming it's valuable to them. Gnomes probably know everything, because they innately know all kinds of illusions, including, say, an illusory copy of a parchment 'learn how to speak druidic in 12 days'. In Locate Creature, familiar = seen a creature from 30ft away, so get your friends to cast figments of creatures (gnomes fit perfectly, since they have an innate knowledge of all kinds of illusion) and just get within 30ft of it, to gain familiarity; you don't gain a will disbilief roll, because you won't study it carefully or interact with it in any way, so it's real enough for you to gain familiarity.

Are these arguments dumb? Yes. Are these arguments RAW? Probably. Will your DM throw books at you if you use them? Definitely.
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DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #361 on: March 11, 2011, 10:24:25 PM »
Like I said before. Good thing I'm not your DM

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #362 on: March 11, 2011, 11:24:36 PM »
Like I said before. Good thing I'm not your DM

Anyone reading my post would probably understand that I wouldn't use arguments such as these, in a normal game. Thus, since you don't understand me, I'm happy you're not my DM.
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DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #363 on: March 12, 2011, 12:39:46 AM »
Dwarves are innately familiar with valuable items of all kind, especially those made of stone or metal, so upon seeing an item they would know whether it was made well or not, instead of a human saying "That was a well put together stone door." The Dwarf has no idea if it is or not based on the off handed comment of a Human, but if he LOOKED at it, yeah, he would probably know.

Gnomes are familiar with illusions of all kinds. So a Gnome Druid would more readily be able to see through the tricks of a Simulacrum Dire Tiger and be able to say "that tiger is bullshit, it ain't real" and based on that alone, they wouldn't be able to take the form, but thank God he knew it was fake, cause that would have turned bad really fast for a 4th level adventuring party.

Locate Creature locates a familiar creature, as in one the Arcane spellcaster knows well enough, as in one the arcane spellcaster has met, and therefore familiar with, so the spell would fail against an offhand description of Hallister Blackcloak, cause that dude never leaves Undermountain, but Elminster would be able to Locate Creature on him no problem, cause he's familiar with him. (If my Faerun lore is wrong, don't hate)

Elminster can use Sending to send a message to Storm Silverhand, but Wizard Noname Schmuck cannot, cause Elminster KNOWS Storm, and is therefore familiar, but Noname Schmuck cannot.

wotmaniac

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #364 on: March 12, 2011, 01:53:14 AM »
good god .... this is starting to get as bad as the "what kind of ability is spellcasting" argument on the Fuck you casters thread. :nonono

and, sadly, I have contributed to both.  :(

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #365 on: March 12, 2011, 01:59:23 AM »
Again

Quote
well-acquainted; thoroughly conversant: to be familiar with a subject.
Oh, let's look at conversant

Quote
familiar by use or study (usually followed by with): conversant with spanish history.
Why look at that.  The dictionary says you can become familiar with something by studying it.

Or lets look at a definition of "familiar with" in particular, since you apparently can't differentiate between "familiar to", "a familiar of", "familiar towards", and "familiar with", despite the fact that English is a highly contextual language, and the difference between turning someone in and turning them on is crucial.

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/familiar+with
Quote
familiar with someone or something
to have a good knowledge of someone or something. (*Typically: be ~; become ~; get ~.) Are you familiar with changing a flat tire? I can't speak German fluently, but I'm somewhat familiar with the language.

Do I have a good knowledge of polar bears with my fifteen ranks of knowledge:nature?  I would certainly hope so.

Let's check another dictionary of english idioms to make sure we're using "familiar with" correctly
familiar with (someone or something)
What does familiar with (someone or something) mean?   
to have knowledge of someone or something   
My friend is familiar with the streets in the city and can drive there easily.
Yep, looks like that's the idiom.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 02:07:13 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #366 on: March 12, 2011, 07:43:31 AM »
Fuck this. I don't care if you don't agree that's how I'll DM it anyways. Good thing we don't have to game with each other.

DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #367 on: March 21, 2011, 09:56:46 PM »
I was stoned last time, but I'm back and sober. Although a little drowsy.

Well the same definition in your first example uses the word acquainted. And since these words have multiple definitions one can say that acquainted means that you've met someone or something, as in a mutual friend with whom you've become acquainted but don't really know. Furthermore the word conversant has a second definition, albeit archaic. "Archaic . having regular or frequent conversation;  intimately associating; acquainted." So using that, since we are in the realm of definitions, one can say that to be thoroughly conversant as you state, that one would have to meet or see the thing one is trying to become conversant with.

Second example. "Are you familiar with changing a flat tire?" Well from what we've discussed one can say that you're not familiar with it until you've done it, sure you can read about it, and you might know how to do it on your car, just like you might know how to change into a brown bear, but you're not quite sure where to place the jack on this different vehicle because you've never done it before. Sure you know the basics, but it ain't quite enough for familiarity until you've done it, then you're good to change that particular tire a million times. A druid can change into a brown bear, and he knows polar bears exist, but he can't change into it because he's never seen one to study it, to become familiar, thoroughly conversant. Just like I have no fucking idea how to change the tire of an 18 wheeler but I can change the tire on my car.

Third example. "My friend is familiar with the streets and can drive there easily." Yeah, because he's done it before. I sure as hell don't know how to drive downtown Manhattan, I live in California, but I can get you to Concord easy. Sure, I can get a map, I can study the map too, just like I can study Algebra, but unless you DO IT, then you don't really know anything about the streets of Manhattan, do you?

Look, the reason I interpret the rules like this is very simple. The druid has some OP feats, like Dragon wild shape at 12th level that allows the druid to gain 19 Nat. Armor and total concealment so long as it isn't broad daylight out and a breath weapon that bestows negative levels. HOLY FUCK THAT'S POWERFUL! Now am I to grant a 12th level druid the ability to turn into that just because he know's what it is? Let's say he doesn't have the requisite knowledge score. Can he turn to a more powerful wizard and say "Teach me about Shadow Dragons so I can turn into one." Would that count? Cause that's fucked up. If one of the NPCs in your campaign is a very friendly old wizard that's seen some shit in his life and is willing to talk about what he knows of dragons to your druid then a 12th level druid now has an arsenal of ALL DRAGONS.

What about Cold wild shape or whatever it's called from Frostburn? Suddenly the party has a 12 headed cryohydra as their best friend that can spew 36D6 worth of breath weapons every 1D4 rounds? Not on my watch.

My argument is about having your cake and eating it too, sometimes you just can't do it, unless you know how to bake cakes.

McPoyo

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #368 on: March 21, 2011, 10:04:33 PM »
And yet, you can be familiar with baking from memorizing hundreds of recipes without having cooked a cake in your life...
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #369 on: March 21, 2011, 10:47:42 PM »
That's not the point of the saying, fool!

Faithless tbe Wonder Boy

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #370 on: March 21, 2011, 10:59:53 PM »
Doc, if you were my DM I wouldn't argue that for a second - it's a reasonable interpretation of the PHB's text.  I might ask for some thematic exceptions, and I would hope that summoning a creature could establish familiarity, but again, it's not unreasonable.

That being said, it's also not RAW - any more than it is RAW to say that a Knowledge check DC XX will establish familiarity.  Both are reasonable ways to interpret a vaguely worded piece of text that may have been added in to give some fluff to the class feature, and may have been added in as a balance.  Heck, it may have even be left vaguely worded so that DMs can make the call themselves.  And you can pull a million definitions from the dictionary, but it won't change that.  The only thing that would is an official ruling, and again, that ain't gonna happen.

KellKheraptis

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #371 on: March 22, 2011, 12:09:12 AM »
Diplomacy solves this, argument or not.

Druid - "O hai, I can haz Polymorphez?"
-rolls a OVA 9000! Diplomacy check-

NPC Weezarde - "Kkies, u can haz Polymorphez!  Wantez Shepchenj 2?  lol!!1!1one!eleven!"

Problem solved!  In fact, diplomacy solved the argument, no less, and ironically.

Point being, it's a false restriction with plenty of ways around it, and if the DM is being a douchebag for the sake of being a douchebag by neutering the main reason 99.99% of players play a druid, the game in question has bigger fish to fry than "animal familiarity."
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Benly

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #372 on: March 22, 2011, 02:46:32 AM »
Look, the reason I interpret the rules like this is very simple. The druid has some OP feats, like Dragon wild shape at 12th level that allows the druid to gain 19 Nat. Armor and total concealment so long as it isn't broad daylight out and a breath weapon that bestows negative levels. HOLY FUCK THAT'S POWERFUL! Now am I to grant a 12th level druid the ability to turn into that just because he know's what it is? Let's say he doesn't have the requisite knowledge score. Can he turn to a more powerful wizard and say "Teach me about Shadow Dragons so I can turn into one." Would that count? Cause that's fucked up. If one of the NPCs in your campaign is a very friendly old wizard that's seen some shit in his life and is willing to talk about what he knows of dragons to your druid then a 12th level druid now has an arsenal of ALL DRAGONS.

Under your rule, what's preventing him from asking the friendly old wizard to polymorph into a shadow dragon wyrmling so he can study it? There's no expensive material component and the friendly old wizard is already spending plenty of time to educate the druid about dragons anyway.

Also, Frozen Wild Shape doesn't give Ex or Su abilities, so you'll need something more if you want cryohydra breath. Hydras are still serious beatsticks, but I felt I should mention it.

ShriekingDrake

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #373 on: March 22, 2011, 05:07:46 AM »
I posted this notion on another site today in response to a topic about templates on animal companions. On page 35 of the 3.5 Player's Handbook it says (emphasis mine) "A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted in the sidebar on page 36. As a druid advances in level, the animal’s power increases as shown on the table in the sidebar."

Admittedly, I never paid much attention to those first few words until today. I had always taken for granted the general consensus that druids could not have templated animal companions. However, RAW, I don't see why a 2nd level druid could not take a templated companion . . . unless there is some errata or other official ruling.

DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #374 on: March 22, 2011, 07:35:02 PM »
Look, the reason I interpret the rules like this is very simple. The druid has some OP feats, like Dragon wild shape at 12th level that allows the druid to gain 19 Nat. Armor and total concealment so long as it isn't broad daylight out and a breath weapon that bestows negative levels. HOLY FUCK THAT'S POWERFUL! Now am I to grant a 12th level druid the ability to turn into that just because he know's what it is? Let's say he doesn't have the requisite knowledge score. Can he turn to a more powerful wizard and say "Teach me about Shadow Dragons so I can turn into one." Would that count? Cause that's fucked up. If one of the NPCs in your campaign is a very friendly old wizard that's seen some shit in his life and is willing to talk about what he knows of dragons to your druid then a 12th level druid now has an arsenal of ALL DRAGONS.

Under your rule, what's preventing him from asking the friendly old wizard to polymorph into a shadow dragon wyrmling so he can study it? There's no expensive material component and the friendly old wizard is already spending plenty of time to educate the druid about dragons anyway.

Also, Frozen Wild Shape doesn't give Ex or Su abilities, so you'll need something more if you want cryohydra breath. Hydras are still serious beatsticks, but I felt I should mention it.

I agree, Polymorph would work, Scrying would work, Summon Monster spells would work. I've said these things before but the argument is does Knowledge based skills grant familiarity, and I say no cause that's WAY too OP.

Of course my example requires the existence of such an NPC, but I'm sure one could even be paid off by the druid. That's right, bitches, pay cash monies for your druid forms! Also, while Diplomacy is a powerful cheesey skill, and I fucking HATE cheese, the way around diplomacy is simply the "don't give a shit rule". Meaning that the person you're trying to diplomacy at simply doesn't give a shit. Like the Rabbit in Alice in Wonderland, that little fucker didn't give two shits about what that little blonde slut had to say.

Gods_Trick

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #375 on: March 22, 2011, 07:52:49 PM »

You know, this might be theoretical if theres such a thing as a zoo, especially in a magical world, a zoo that can accomodate a wide, weird variety of animals.

Also, would a book written by a druid for druids provide the necessary familiarity?

Theres just too many options to consider without depending on anecdotal evidence, and honestly, the druid WS'ing into a polar bear is not your problem, its chain-binding Efreets and Nightmares.

Benly

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #376 on: March 22, 2011, 08:13:36 PM »
I agree, Polymorph would work, Scrying would work, Summon Monster spells would work. I've said these things before but the argument is does Knowledge based skills grant familiarity, and I say no cause that's WAY too OP.

But how is it overpowered if it's equally trivial to gain familiarity by other means? Making druids pay a wizard to polymorph for them doesn't restrict their access to powerful forms, it just means they'll buy the most powerful forms and never bother with less powerful forms that might have situational uses and make life more interesting. It also has the thematically-bizarre side effect of making druids dependent on wizards for their powers.

If you think dragon wildshape is overpowered, tell your PCs not to use it or come to an agreement with them about which forms you think are broken.

ShriekingDrake

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #377 on: March 26, 2011, 03:22:26 PM »
I posted this notion on another site today in response to a topic about templates on animal companions. On page 35 of the 3.5 Player's Handbook it says (emphasis mine) "A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted in the sidebar on page 36. As a druid advances in level, the animal’s power increases as shown on the table in the sidebar."

Admittedly, I never paid much attention to those first few words until today. I had always taken for granted the general consensus that druids could not have templated animal companions. However, RAW, I don't see why a 2nd level druid could not take a templated companion . . . unless there is some errata or other official ruling.

Bumping this to see if I'm off in Lala Land.  I haven't seen this notion expressed by anyone other than myself.  But now that I've stumbled on it, it seems like it's copacetic RAW.  Other thoughts?

Benly

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #378 on: March 26, 2011, 07:19:08 PM »
Bumping this to see if I'm off in Lala Land.  I haven't seen this notion expressed by anyone other than myself.  But now that I've stumbled on it, it seems like it's copacetic RAW.  Other thoughts?

If you choose to ignore the following sentence where it describes how a druid's companion gains power as he levels up, sure. Beyond that, it's very much a "the rules don't explicitly say I can't" kind of claim.

Torvon

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #379 on: April 08, 2011, 03:33:59 PM »
Equipment:
reserved until finished

Om nom nom nom  :D ...
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