Author Topic: The Druid Handbook  (Read 554296 times)

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Tshern

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #320 on: March 10, 2011, 09:11:05 PM »
So what do you count as familiar? They need to be married or something? The druid needs to raise a few dozen of those animals and open a zoo for them?

Familiar=Actually seen the thing in the fur, scale, feather

Also, what the crap does your signature say, cause it looks Finnish
It is Finnish, but accurate translation would be off-topic in this thread.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 09:12:55 PM by Tshern »
Ja vuosia myöhemmin
kalvas kaksikko lattialla motellin tihrustelee,
kun sama keiju katossa leijailee.
Kyselevät: "Mikä päivä nyt on?
Tiedätkö sen?"
Kuiskaten laulaa keiju:
"Tämän elämän viimeinen."

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DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #321 on: March 10, 2011, 09:56:28 PM »
Guys, I think you're doing it wrong. That ruling is there to limit a druid, from, say, becoming a yeti in a sandstorm-like world. Besides, it's dumb, because if you take it literally, it means that if you get out of a temperate forest, you gain the ability to wild shape to a polar bear.

And if there happened to be a druid living in that forest with a polar bear animal friend, the polar bear would be DEAD.

FIXT

bearsarebrown

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #322 on: March 10, 2011, 10:01:08 PM »
why would it die

if you say climate you lose because the druid can magic it healthy with ease

Bozwevial

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #323 on: March 10, 2011, 10:01:45 PM »
Guys, I think you're doing it wrong. That ruling is there to limit a druid, from, say, becoming a yeti in a sandstorm-like world. Besides, it's dumb, because if you take it literally, it means that if you get out of a temperate forest, you gain the ability to wild shape to a polar bear.

And if there happened to be a druid living in that forest with a polar bear animal friend, the polar bear would be DEAD. pretty okay with its constant Endure Elements.
FIXT
Fixed your fix.

Edit: bears beat me to my post about bears.

Benly

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #324 on: March 10, 2011, 11:01:32 PM »
So out of the people posting in this thread, which ones live in a temperate forest?

Now, out of the people posting in this thread, how many know what a wolf looks like?

GrokThis

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #325 on: March 10, 2011, 11:24:52 PM »
I live in a temperate forest. I've seen wolves (only in captivity). The rest I've seen in the wild: bear, elk, deer, bobcat, moose, boar, fox, beaver, coyote, werechickens and professional wrestlers. I am not a druid, however, so it's a moot point.

DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #326 on: March 10, 2011, 11:34:39 PM »
why would it die

if you say climate you lose because the druid can magic it healthy with ease

Magic it healthy. I lol'd. Also good point.

wotmaniac

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #327 on: March 10, 2011, 11:36:53 PM »
So out of the people posting in this thread, which ones live in a temperate forest?
you mean actually live and survive in the wild?

Quote
Now, out of the people posting in this thread, how many know what a wolf looks like?
you mean from actually seeing them in the fur, in its natural environment?
I'm not sure how many druids have a TV (or otherwise have access to modern devices).

Your questions are obviously rhetorical -- I think you are taking the amenities of modern society and technology way too much for granted.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Benly

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #328 on: March 10, 2011, 11:51:11 PM »
Your questions are obviously rhetorical -- I think you are taking the amenities of modern society and technology way too much for granted.

Even before modern photography, an educated person in, say, England had a pretty good idea of what a tiger or elephant looked like if he wanted to know. A well-regarded and well-educated anatomist, naturist, or taxidermist would have quite an accurate knowledge of such a creature. With K: nature, you are in fact a highly educated person on that subject.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #329 on: March 10, 2011, 11:54:54 PM »
Yeah, if just seeing it was the barrier, you could just go down to the local elementary schools for mages and have them whip up a silent illusion of a dire shark or something.

Now, personally speaking I live in a temperate forest and fed raw meat to tigers without leaving said temperate forest*, but my experiences are somewhat atypical.


*Did I mention that my education was cooler than your education?  No?  Well, now I have.
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wotmaniac

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #330 on: March 11, 2011, 01:25:04 AM »
*sigh*
really?
we all know the very basic and simplistic mindset that was used when designing and writing 3.x (or any edition, for that matter) -- their discussion of it is detailed all over the place (both in and out of the published material).  Given that, it's quite obvious what the basic assumptions are in this case.
The more you subject the material to "what if" and "by the way", the further away from those basic assumptions you get; and, thus, the more you're gonna end up banging your head.  Solution: relax, it's just a game -- try not to take it too seriously or look in to it too deep.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Benly

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #331 on: March 11, 2011, 01:38:56 AM »
*sigh*
really?
we all know the very basic and simplistic mindset that was used when designing and writing 3.x (or any edition, for that matter) -- their discussion of it is detailed all over the place (both in and out of the published material).  Given that, it's quite obvious what the basic assumptions are in this case.

It is indeed very obvious! It is, in fact, so obvious that it is immediately apparent to everyone involved in the thread. The fact that different readers have reached different conclusions has no bearing on this.  :)

I don't think it's actually obvious that they intended K: Nature not to qualify you as knowing about creatures outside the terrain you grew up in. The "a druid who has never left temperate forests can't be a polar bear" thing may or may not have been made under the assumption that the druid in question has no ranks of K: Nature, particularly given that a druid who does have those ranks knows everything there is to know about polar bears.

wotmaniac

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #332 on: March 11, 2011, 02:03:52 AM »
the different conclusions comes from 2 places:
1) ignoring the games assumptions
2) people not wanting to be "shackled by fluff"
 
... come to think of it, I think that #2 probably feeds #1.


of course, conversely, to illustrate the other end of the spectrum (as well as the lunacy of the skill system):
I would need pass a know(arcane) check DC 46 to know that the creature in front of me is a Great Wyrm white dragon, and that I might want to try to kill it with fire.  :rolleyes

so I guess I may concede .... but just a little.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 02:17:26 AM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #333 on: March 11, 2011, 02:15:14 AM »
The druid has to have seen the animal in order for it to take the form. No, fuck you, illusion spells don't count. Period.

wotmaniac

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #334 on: March 11, 2011, 02:18:39 AM »
The druid has to have seen the animal in order for it to take the form. No, fuck you, illusion spells don't count. Period.
*plays devil's advocate*
even from shadow conjuration or similar spell from a properly pimped-out SCM? ;)
(it's not just real -- it's more that real)

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #335 on: March 11, 2011, 02:46:50 AM »
The druid has to have seen the animal in order for it to take the form. No, fuck you, illusion spells don't count. Period.
So your druid can go "hey I know that that absolutely perfect illusion of a creature I've never seen before is an illusion because I haven't suddenly gained the ability to wildshape into it"?
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Echoes

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #336 on: March 11, 2011, 05:58:05 AM »
The druid has to have seen the animal in order for it to take the form. No, fuck you, illusion spells don't count. Period.

Got a rules quote to back that up, asshole?

The rules say you have to be "familiar" with an animal, that's it. You know what that means in actual English? It means you know about something. When someone says they're familiar with a topic, it means they are aware of it and know something about it. It doesn't mean they have personally visited with it, supped at it's table, and married it's daughter.

So yes, a Druid who can make the Knowledge (nature) checks can goddamned jolly well wild shape into a fucking polar bear despite living in medieval England.
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DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #337 on: March 11, 2011, 07:05:04 AM »
The druid has to have seen the animal in order for it to take the form. No, fuck you, illusion spells don't count. Period.
So your druid can go "hey I know that that absolutely perfect illusion of a creature I've never seen before is an illusion because I haven't suddenly gained the ability to wildshape into it"?

"Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice and snow..." PH 3.5 279

So, you're gonna gain familiarity off ice and snow? And that's a 7th level spell. Perfect example of a very powerful illusion spell that DOESN'T WORK.
The druid has to have seen the animal in order for it to take the form. No, fuck you, illusion spells don't count. Period.

Got a rules quote to back that up, asshole?

The rules say you have to be "familiar" with an animal, that's it. You know what that means in actual English? It means you know about something. When someone says they're familiar with a topic, it means they are aware of it and know something about it. It doesn't mean they have personally visited with it, supped at it's table, and married it's daughter.

So yes, a Druid who can make the Knowledge (nature) checks can goddamned jolly well wild shape into a fucking polar bear despite living in medieval England.

Once again "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. For example, a druid who has never been outside a temperate forest could not become a polar bear."~PH3.5 Page 37


Echoes

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #338 on: March 11, 2011, 07:28:18 AM »
The druid has to have seen the animal in order for it to take the form. No, fuck you, illusion spells don't count. Period.

So your druid can go "hey I know that that absolutely perfect illusion of a creature I've never seen before is an illusion because I haven't suddenly gained the ability to wildshape into it"?

"Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice and snow..." PH 3.5 279

So, you're gonna gain familiarity off ice and snow? And that's a 7th level spell. Perfect example of a very powerful illusion spell that DOESN'T WORK.

Yes, of course. Because, as we all know, since there's one Illusion spell that wouldn't necessarily work, no Illusion spell possibly could. :rollseyes Your leaps of logic make Monks jealous.

The druid has to have seen the animal in order for it to take the form. No, fuck you, illusion spells don't count. Period.

This is your claim. You've yet to provide a rules quote that backs that shit up.

Once again "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. For example, a druid who has never been outside a temperate forest could not become a polar bear."~PH3.5 Page 37

If you want to cite examples, let's flip over to the Abjurant Champion as a demonstration of the validity of WotC's examples, shall we? Because that's the same issue here. The rules say "the form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with". Not "you must have been in the physical presence of the animal".

Also, way to completely ignore the entire point about what familiar means, and how it relates in this context.
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Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
[spoiler]
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #339 on: March 11, 2011, 07:47:50 AM »
Simulacrum is, you know, kind of a bad example, because if you have a piece of whale blubber in the first place, you probably know what a whale is.  That aside, the point is that if seeing the animal is the only requirement and there exists some sort of magical block that keeps you from wild shaping into a whale if you've only seen a picture of a whale/a simulated whale, then you can abuse that fact to recognize illusions of animals based on the fact that you can't turn into that thing right there, which I'd say is a silly conclusion.

Besides, the druid gets Scrying. Most animals have poor Will saves. If all you have to do to turn into a polar bear is see one, then it literally only takes five steps:

1) Know that polar bears exist (knowledge: nature)
2) Cast scrying until you overpower their puny minds (lol poor will save progression)
3) Watch it chew on some seals for a while
4) Cruise around town and pick up some women
5) aawww yeah check out these claws