Author Topic: The Druid Handbook  (Read 552879 times)

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DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #300 on: March 09, 2011, 10:52:12 PM »
^Do I have to quote the PH again?

You could also use knowledge checks, Doc. The DC to know everything about a creature is relatively low, all things considered.

That goes for you too, buddy.
I am very familiar with the physiology of the sponge.  Much more familiar than a guy who just goes diving every weekend and say "ooh, look at the pretty sponges"
Yeah, me too, and his Starfish and Squid neighbors, and his Crab boss, and his Squirrel friend

Shiki

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #301 on: March 10, 2011, 01:33:21 AM »
May you be happy with your narrow view on how familiarity with something is gained when defined in game terms. I'm out. :eh
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wotmaniac

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #302 on: March 10, 2011, 02:06:51 AM »
^Do I have to quote the PH again?

You could also use knowledge checks, Doc. The DC to know everything about a creature is relatively low, all things considered.

That goes for you too, buddy.
I am very familiar with the physiology of the sponge.  Much more familiar than a guy who just goes diving every weekend and say "ooh, look at the pretty sponges"
which has nothing to do with whether or not you actually know what it looks like.
besides, I don't see druids as being that much in to theoretical study ... I see them as having more of a hands-on approach (as in "show me, don't tell me")

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #303 on: March 10, 2011, 02:23:58 AM »
May you be happy with your narrow view on how familiarity with something is gained when defined in game terms. I'm out. :eh

Once again "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. For example, a druid who has never been outside a temperate forest could not become a polar bear."~PH3.5 Page 37

It's not a "narrow view on how familiarity with something is gained" It's literally how the class works.

TenaciousJ

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #304 on: March 10, 2011, 02:29:30 AM »
May you be happy with your narrow view on how familiarity with something is gained when defined in game terms. I'm out. :eh

Once again "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. For example, a druid who has never been outside a temperate forest could not become a polar bear."~PH3.5 Page 37

It's not a "narrow view on how familiarity with something is gained" It's literally how the class works.

You write a tidbit in the character's background story that says where they're from, where they have been, what druidic sect they've been involved with, etc.  Level 1 doesn't mean you just popped out of the womb and it's pretty easy to come up with a reason a character is familiar with an animal.

DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #305 on: March 10, 2011, 02:56:50 AM »
^ Now there's someone with an idea. More of that

Nytemare3701

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #306 on: March 10, 2011, 04:40:38 AM »
Is everyone forgetting that you can't throw fluff at a rules requirement? Familiarity has to be fulfilled by some ingame or mechanical source.

Am I wrong here?
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Mechanics
[spoiler]
Combat Expertise
Spell Resistance
Spell Schools
Combat Maneuvers
Armor and Shield Proficiency
BaB and Combat Feats
Skills (Hazard zone)
Epic Spellcasting
Poisons
Misc. Tweaks
[/spoiler]

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #307 on: March 10, 2011, 04:42:52 AM »
It's throwing fluff at a fluff requirement.  It's like saying "yeah, before I started adventuring I got lost when I went to find a cup of sugar, and I eventually somehow ended up in the lost jungle temples of the Coatls."
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Nytemare3701

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #308 on: March 10, 2011, 04:49:55 AM »
It's throwing fluff at a fluff requirement.

Fair enough. I fixed that for the rewrite.
ALT+7 to make a •
Clean up your posts and people tend to react better to them.

My rewrites:
Mechanics
[spoiler]
Combat Expertise
Spell Resistance
Spell Schools
Combat Maneuvers
Armor and Shield Proficiency
BaB and Combat Feats
Skills (Hazard zone)
Epic Spellcasting
Poisons
Misc. Tweaks
[/spoiler]

There's RAI, and then there's RAW, and then there's "Hey, if I deliberately misread this look how powerful it is!" – Caelic

DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #309 on: March 10, 2011, 05:00:36 AM »
It's throwing fluff at a fluff requirement.  It's like saying "yeah, before I started adventuring I got lost when I went to find a cup of sugar, and I eventually somehow ended up in the lost jungle temples of the Coatls."

ONCE AGAIN "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. For example, a druid who has never been outside a temperate forest could not become a polar bear."~PH3.5 Page 37

It's not fluff, it's literally how the class works.

Tshern

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #310 on: March 10, 2011, 05:05:09 AM »
So what do you count as familiar? They need to be married or something? The druid needs to raise a few dozen of those animals and open a zoo for them?
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DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #311 on: March 10, 2011, 05:41:52 AM »
So what do you count as familiar? They need to be married or something? The druid needs to raise a few dozen of those animals and open a zoo for them?

Familiar=Actually seen the thing in the fur, scale, feather

Also, what the crap does your signature say, cause it looks Finnish
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 05:43:34 AM by DocWarlock »

wotmaniac

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #312 on: March 10, 2011, 06:04:52 AM »
Once again "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. For example, a druid who has never been outside a temperate forest could not become a polar bear."~PH3.5 Page 37

It's not fluff, it's literally how the class works.

Oh wait a minute -- I think I finally see what's going on here.  Let me see if I can aggregate this thing ....
While, yes, you could use your know(nature) skill to identify a creature (as well as various things about it), that doesn't mean that you are "familiar" with it.  
And, yes, we can get a decent idea of what "familiar" is supposed to mean from the example -- in this case it would suggest that the creature should be terrain-appropriate to the character's home.  I mean, seriously, when you have to start contriving silly excuses of how your 1st-level, 20-year-old character is actually an established world traveler (because the DM actually does know everywhere you've been since then), then you're just doing an end-run around the basic assumptions of the rules.

Additionally, I would put forth that "fluff" and "crunch" are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  in the case of the whole WS thing -- while it is a fluff issue, it is actually there for a rules reason.  Rules influence how the game is played.  When something specific like WS form restrictions are put in, it's intended to give you a frame of reference on what some of the basic assumptions are.

Oh, and as to the know(nature) check:  if you lived all your life in a specific terrain type, then the check for anything within that terrain type would indeed be "really easy", or possible even "basic".  The further away you get from that terrain type (i.e., the bigger the differences between 2 given terrain types), the harder that check is gonna be (based on the likelihood of encountering a given creature in a given terrain type).

Yes, I realize that most of this may be RAI; but trying to interpret RAW without a solid nod towards RAI is just silly.


So what do you count as familiar? They need to be married or something? The druid needs to raise a few dozen of those animals and open a zoo for them?

Familiar=Actually seen the thing in the fur, scale, feather

Also, what the crap does your signature say, cause it looks Finnish
Yeah, pretty much.  on both counts.
as to the first -- see above.
as to the second -- I believe that would be his native language.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #313 on: March 10, 2011, 07:24:40 AM »
Once again "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. For example, a druid who has never been outside a temperate forest could not become a polar bear."~PH3.5 Page 37

It's not fluff, it's literally how the class works.

Oh wait a minute -- I think I finally see what's going on here.  Let me see if I can aggregate this thing ....
While, yes, you could use your know(nature) skill to identify a creature (as well as various things about it), that doesn't mean that you are "familiar" with it.  
And, yes, we can get a decent idea of what "familiar" is supposed to mean from the example -- in this case it would suggest that the creature should be terrain-appropriate to the character's home.  I mean, seriously, when you have to start contriving silly excuses of how your 1st-level, 20-year-old character is actually an established world traveler (because the DM actually does know everywhere you've been since then), then you're just doing an end-run around the basic assumptions of the rules.

Additionally, I would put forth that "fluff" and "crunch" are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  in the case of the whole WS thing -- while it is a fluff issue, it is actually there for a rules reason.  Rules influence how the game is played.  When something specific like WS form restrictions are put in, it's intended to give you a frame of reference on what some of the basic assumptions are.

Oh, and as to the know(nature) check:  if you lived all your life in a specific terrain type, then the check for anything within that terrain type would indeed be "really easy", or possible even "basic".  The further away you get from that terrain type (i.e., the bigger the differences between 2 given terrain types), the harder that check is gonna be (based on the likelihood of encountering a given creature in a given terrain type).

Yes, I realize that most of this may be RAI; but trying to interpret RAW without a solid nod towards RAI is just silly.


So what do you count as familiar? They need to be married or something? The druid needs to raise a few dozen of those animals and open a zoo for them?

Familiar=Actually seen the thing in the fur, scale, feather

Also, what the crap does your signature say, cause it looks Finnish
Yeah, pretty much.  on both counts.
as to the first -- see above.
as to the second -- I believe that would be his native language.

What he said. ALL this. A million times all this.

Also, Google Translate agrees that it is Finnish, but the translation is all backwards and fucked up. I'd really like to know what it actually says.

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #314 on: March 10, 2011, 08:37:53 AM »
Guys, I think you're doing it wrong. That ruling is there to limit a druid, from, say, becoming a yeti in a sandstorm-like world. Besides, it's dumb, because if you take it literally, it means that if you get out of a temperate forest, you gain the ability to wild shape to a polar bear.

Now, other than that, familiarity is not defined. For example there might exist zoology books in-game (sort-of like Monster Manuals) that you can read. If you find that you can wild shape in them, just move to a different area, that might work for you :p
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cru

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #315 on: March 10, 2011, 09:45:53 AM »
A somewhat sane compromise my DM and me agreed on: my druid is automatically familiar with all MM1 forms + everything else we meet.

Note:
At level 1, you can detect animals or plants in long range. You can also speak with animals and ask them where a bear lives. You can summon nature's ally to look at Dire rat, Eagle, Monkey, Octopus, Owl, Porpoise, Snake, Small viper, Wolf. You can use SNA at later levels to learn about further animals.
At level 3, you can use survival to locate well-traveled animal areas and then tree shape and wait and observe.
At level 5, you can speak with plants about where the bear lives.
At level 7, you can look at the lay of the land, perhaps using it to locate potential animal dens. You can also use scrying to look at various creatures.
At level 9, you can commune with nature to learn about animals in an area. You can also use tree stride to run through a forest quickly to find them.
At level 11, you can find the path and transport via plants to track stuff you want to meet.

DocWarlock

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #316 on: March 10, 2011, 09:50:07 AM »
A somewhat sane compromise my DM and me agreed on: my druid is automatically familiar with all MM1 forms + everything else we meet.

Note:
At level 1, you can detect animals or plants in long range. You can also speak with animals and ask them where a bear lives. You can summon nature's ally to look at Dire rat, Eagle, Monkey, Octopus, Owl, Porpoise, Snake, Small viper, Wolf. You can use SNA at later levels to learn about further animals.
At level 3, you can use survival to locate well-traveled animal areas and then tree shape and wait and observe.
At level 5, you can speak with plants about where the bear lives.
At level 7, you can look at the lay of the land, perhaps using it to locate potential animal dens. You can also use scrying to look at various creatures.
At level 9, you can commune with nature to learn about animals in an area. You can also use tree stride to run through a forest quickly to find them.
At level 11, you can find the path and transport via plants to track stuff you want to meet.

This is the shit I'm talking about, except for the very first line. I guess if the DM will swing for it I can't yell at him for it, but this is the discussion I was wanting to have the whole time.

TenaciousJ

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #317 on: March 10, 2011, 09:53:23 AM »
Or, play in Eberron.  "My character worked for House Vadalis before he had a change of heart and became a druid." or "The Greensingers exposed me to a wide variety of animals on an excursion to Lammania in my training."  There's your excuses for knowing any animal form you want.

wotmaniac

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #318 on: March 10, 2011, 03:39:02 PM »
I must confess that animals that you are able to summon should count as "familiar" -- this seems a no-brainer.  by simply summoning it and seeing it in action for the few seconds that is the spells' duration, you learn all you need to know for using its shape.

as a side note: I've actually had a player that restricted his SNA creatures to the same familiarity standard.  go figure.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: The Druid Handbook
« Reply #319 on: March 10, 2011, 08:46:44 PM »
Guys, I think you're doing it wrong. That ruling is there to limit a druid, from, say, becoming a yeti in a sandstorm-like world. Besides, it's dumb, because if you take it literally, it means that if you get out of a temperate forest, you gain the ability to wild shape to a polar bear.

And if there happened to be a druid living in that forest with a polar bear animal friend, you wouldn't be familiar.
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