Author Topic: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)  (Read 10953 times)

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DaveoftheRave

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[3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« on: August 02, 2008, 09:21:43 PM »
Last updated: October 24, 2009





Swashbuckler
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.

Class Skills
The swashbuckler's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex) and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the swashbuckler.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A swashbuckler is proficient with all simple weapons as well as light martial weapons, rapier and whip. Swashbucklers are proficient with light armour but not with shields.
Weapon Finesse: A swashbuckler gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.
Canny Defense (Ex): A swashbuckler adds her Intelligence bonus (if any) to her Armour Class as a Dodge bonus while wielding a melee weapon which is compatible with the weapon finesse feat. This bonus cannot exceed the swashbuckler's class level. If a swashbuckler is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus. In addition, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five swashbuckler levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th and +4 at 20th).  A swashbuckler cannot use this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.
Bonus Feats: At 2nd level, a swashbuckler gets a bonus feat and an additional bonus feat every 3 levels thereafter at 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th level.  These bonus feats must be drawn from the following list of swashbuckler bonus feats. A swashbuckler must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

Acrobatic Strike, Blind-Fight, Bounding Assault, Combat Acrobat, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Danger Sense, Deceptive Dodge, Deft Opportunist, Deadly Defense, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Elusive Target, Feint Mastery, Fleet of Foot, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Critical, Improved Disarm, Improved Dodge, Improved Feint, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Unarmed Strike, Intimidating Strike, Mobility, Power Critical, Quick Draw, Quick Reconnoiter, Rapid Blitz, Riposte, Robilar's Gambit, Run, Single Blade Style, Snatch Arrows, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Tumbling Feint, Weapon Focus, Whirlwind Attack.

Improved Reaction (Ex): At 3rd level, a swashbuckler gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks. At 9th level, the bonus increases to +4 and to +6 at 15th level. This bonus stacks with the benefit provided by the Improved Initiative feat.
Insightful Strike (Ex): At 4th level, a swashbuckler becomes able to place her finesse attacks where they deal greater damage. She applies her Intelligence bonus (if any) as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any Strength bonus she may have) with any light weapon, as well as any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, such as aA swashbuckler cannot use this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.
Daredevil Athlete (Ex): A swashbuckler of 6th level or higher can perform amazing death defying stunts.  Three times per day, she can choose to gain a luck bonus equal to her swashbuckler level on all Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Ride, Swim, or Tumble checks until the beginning of her next turn.  A swashbuckler cannot use this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.
Evasion (Ex): At 7th level and higher if a swashbuckler makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. A swashbuckler cannot use this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. A helpless swashbuckler does not gain the benefit of evasion.  If she already has Evasion she instead gains Improved Evasion as the Rogue Special Ability.
Special Abilities: At 10th level and every 3 levels thereafter (13th, 16th and 19th), a swashbuckler gains a special ability of her choice drawn from the following list. A swashbuckler cannot use this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

-Acrobatic Charge (Ex): A swashbuckler with this ability may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain. Furthermore she does not suffer the normal -2 to AC for charging.
-Acrobatic Skill Mastery (Ex): When making a Jump or Tumble check, a swashbuckler with this ability may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.
-Defensive Roll (Ex): As the Rogue Special Ability.
-Dodge Critical (Ex): Once per day, a swashbuckler with this ability can make a Reflex saving throw (DC 20 + the enhancement bonus, if any, possessed by the weapon) to turn a critical hit dealt upon her into a normal hit. The swashbuckler must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed, and she must declare her attempt to reduce the effect of the critical hit before the damage from the hit is rolled.
-Improved Evasion (Ex): As the Rogue Special Ability.
-Improved Flanking (Ex): A swashbuckler with this ability who is flanking an opponent gains a +4 bonus instead of a +2 bonus on attacks.
-Lucky (Ex): Once per day, a swashbuckler with this ability may reroll any failed attack roll, skill check, ability check, or saving throw.
-Slippery Mind (Ex): As the Rogue Special Ability.
-Weakening Critical (Ex): A swashbuckler with this ability who scores a critical hit against a creature also deals 2 points of Strength damage to the creature. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect. This ability cannot be used when fighting with weapons not compatible with the weapon finesse feat.
--Wounding Critical (Ex): (Prerequisite: Weakening Critical) A swashbuckler with this ability who scores a critical hit against a creature also deals 2 points of Constitution damage to the creature. (This damage is in addition to the Strength damage dealt by the swashbuckler’s weakening critical class feature.) Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect. This ability cannot be used when fighting with weapons not compatible with the weapon finesse feat.

Elaborate Parry (Ex): At 12th level and higher, if a swashbuckler chooses to fight defensively, uses total defense or takes a -2 or greater penalty with the feat Combat Expertise in melee combat, she gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 2 levels of swashbuckler she has.  This benefit does not apply when wearing medium or heavy armor, when carrying a shield, or when carring a medium or heavy load. This ability cannot be used when fighting with any weapons not compatible with the weapon finesse feat.
Daring Lunge (Ex): Once per day as a standard action, a swashbuckler of 18th level or higher may make a single melee attack against a foe using a weapon compatible with the weapon finesse feat. If the attack successfully deals damage the foe must succeed on a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A swashbuckler cannot use this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load and it has no effect on creatures that are immune to critical hits or do not have discernible anatomies like Oozes or Plants.

GREATER FEINT[GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Int 15, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Base Attack Bonus +6.
Benefit: You may make a bluff check to feint in combat as a swift action.
Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action, or a move action with Improved Feint.
Special: A fighter may select Feint Mastery as one of his fighter bonus feats.

FEINT MASTERY[GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Int 17, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Greater Feint, Base Attack Bonus +12.
Benefit: Just before making your first attack, after applying all optional modifiers you may make a feint attempt against one opponent.  If successful you get the bonus of having feinted the foe for all of your attacks until the beginning of your next turn. Note:  If you use this ability you may not make a normal feint attempt this turn.
Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action, a move action with Improved Feint, or a swift action with Greater Feint and only applies to your next attack against that opponent.
Special: A fighter may select Feint Mastery as one of his fighter bonus feats.

RIPOSTE[GENERAL]
You are adept at striking from a defensive posture.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Base Attack Bonus +4.
Benefit: If you take at least a -2 penalty with Combat Expertise, each opponent to attack and miss you for that round provokes an attack of opportunity from you.  You may only make one Attack of Opportunity per opponent (per round) in this way.
Special: A fighter may select Riposte as one of his fighter bonus feats.


I had this on the wrong board so I'm reposting here.  Please PEACH.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 03:30:04 PM by DaveoftheRave »

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2008, 07:41:00 AM »
I'd like to see some arcane tricky spells, like the bard list. Acquisition would be like that of the paladin. 
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DaveoftheRave

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2008, 10:06:05 AM »
Quote
I'd like to see some arcane tricky spells, like the bard list. Acquisition would be like that of the paladin.

Thanks for the idea but that would completely change the class.  I'd like to keep it no-magical, spells just aren't in keeping with the fluff (as far as I'm concerned).

Blade2718

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2008, 02:29:57 PM »
Quote
I'd like to see some arcane tricky spells, like the bard list. Acquisition would be like that of the paladin.

Thanks for the idea but that would completely change the class.  I'd like to keep it no-magical, spells just aren't in keeping with the fluff (as far as I'm concerned).
You could have them as 1/day Ex abilities instead of spells or spell-likes.

Orion

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2008, 03:41:05 PM »
I actually agree that the swashbuckler shouldn't be magic. She should be full of slam-bang, acrobatic awesome, but not magic.

In Defensive Roll, is that you leave it ambiguous as to whether that class feature can be used against damaging effects that provoke Saving Throws already. Is it meant for just in-coming attacks? I can't quite tell.

Also, there is already a feat in d20 Modern, called "Agile Riposte," that's very similar. Thought you might want to look at it for comparison's sake:

AGILE RIPOSTE
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Dodge.
Benefit

Kuroimaken

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2008, 02:57:24 AM »
Hmmm, not bad at all. Couple of things, though.

Why limit the bonus to Daredevil Athlete to times per day? It's not that big a bonus, and Swashbucklers should have acrobatic goodness throughout the whole day.

Also, almost every class feature from level 10 onwards would be a lot more useful earlier. Particularly Weakening and Wounding Critical, since by that time you're likely to face off critters that can't be ability damaged.
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DaveoftheRave

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2009, 10:35:39 PM »
Why limit the bonus to Daredevil Athlete to times per day? It's not that big a bonus, and Swashbucklers should have acrobatic goodness throughout the whole day.

I think it is a good bonus for the level it is at. The problem is that it doesn't scale. I have changed it to scale with the class.

Quote
Also, almost every class feature from level 10 onwards would be a lot more useful earlier. Particularly Weakening and Wounding Critical, since by that time you're likely to face off critters that can't be ability damaged.

I like the extra abilities, they aren't meant to define the class, just give something extra along the way that are fun. I do agree with you somewhat though and I think giving the player more choices is usually better so I have stolen the Rogue special ability progression. It also helps a player to customize the Swashbuckler to the campaign that she is playing in.




So it has been a year since I have posted here but since the class is getting attention in the sticky thread I thought I would revise it after seeing it fresh. I've made some minor changes which I think are good and I always welcome feedback.

Kuroimaken

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2009, 04:19:50 AM »
Hmmm, glad to see this back. Lessee...

Could probably use Evasion earlier, and make Improved Evasion a possibility via special ability?

How about Daredevil Athlete equal to 3+ Int mod times per day rather than a flat 3 times per day? Many of your Swashbuckler's abilities seems to rely on level over attritube, so that could fill in the gaps.

Untyped bonus to AC from Canny Defense is a little bad. Should probably be a dodge bonus, since dodge bonuses stack with everything and can't be used flat-footed.

That should be most if not all of my nagging.  :p
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DaveoftheRave

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2009, 12:14:06 PM »
Hmmm, glad to see this back. Lessee...

Thanks for the feedback

Quote
Could probably use Evasion earlier, and make Improved Evasion a possibility via special ability?

I think the class has a lot early on. The only way to really change it would be to switch Evasion and Acrobatic Charge. Do you think that would be better? I don't see evasion as being important to the class, just an ability that is nice to have. That's what all of the special abilities are.

Quote
How about Daredevil Athlete equal to 3+ Int mod times per day rather than a flat 3 times per day? Many of your Swashbuckler's abilities seems to rely on level over attritube, so that could fill in the gaps.

She gets Int to AC and Damage, you don't think that's enough? I like having abilities rely on level since it then gives you something at each level and makes you feel like you're progressing. I think if it were 3+ Int per day you might as well just have it as a flat bonus to all of those skills. I also don't think it fits with Int, Cha would be better I suppose and it would give the Swashbuckler a reason to go with Cha. Right now there is nothing in the class for Cha which is a shame for swashbucklers. On the other hand it would make the class quite MAD.  I think it's pretty good as 3/day and the 6+ skill points per level gives the swashbuckler good acrobatics without it. I see it as an ability to push the normal limits. The other way to work the stat would be to have a flat Stat bonus to all those skills. I don't like that as much though, it involves less player choice.

Quote
Untyped bonus to AC from Canny Defense is a little bad. Should probably be a dodge bonus, since dodge bonuses stack with everything and can't be used flat-footed.

You're right, I think that is a leftover from the actual Canny Defense ability. I've changed it.


Quote
That should be most if not all of my nagging.  :p

I don't entirely agree with you but I see where you're coming from and I appreciate it.

Kuroimaken

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2009, 01:19:22 PM »
Quote
I don't entirely agree with you but I see where you're coming from and I appreciate it.

Well, I try to be constructive.  :) Just glad we're on a similar page.

Quote
I think the class has a lot early on. The only way to really change it would be to switch Evasion and Acrobatic Charge. Do you think that would be better? I don't see evasion as being important to the class, just an ability that is nice to have. That's what all of the special abilities are.

Well, it's just that when I think swashbuckler, I see the kind of man that doesn't get singed when getting out of a burning building. I see a swashbuckler as a gentleman fighter of sorts based off grace and speed. Ergo, I think evasion should be available earlier. That is only opinion, though.

Also, from a mechanics standpoint, Evasion is considerably more useful at earlier levels, since traps and AoE direct damage are pretty much the only things that aim for reflex. Later on, one can simply buy a ring of evasion if it comes to it.


Quote
She gets Int to AC and Damage, you don't think that's enough? I like having abilities rely on level since it then gives you something at each level and makes you feel like you're progressing. I think if it were 3+ Int per day you might as well just have it as a flat bonus to all of those skills. I also don't think it fits with Int, Cha would be better I suppose and it would give the Swashbuckler a reason to go with Cha. Right now there is nothing in the class for Cha which is a shame for swashbucklers. On the other hand it would make the class quite MAD.  I think it's pretty good as 3/day and the 6+ skill points per level gives the swashbuckler good acrobatics without it. I see it as an ability to push the normal limits. The other way to work the stat would be to have a flat Stat bonus to all those skills. I don't like that as much though, it involves less player choice.

You DO have quite a few social skills there, that's more than enough reason to have a good charisma with a swashbuckler (flavor notwithstanding). As it is, Int to damage seems to help reduce MAD, since you won't need that high a STR then. It was mostly a suggestion because those skills don't come up that often in combat, but when they do in dungeons you pretty much need more than 3 uses a day of that ability. It's just a thought, though, your mileage may vary.
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DaveoftheRave

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2009, 01:34:44 PM »
I've switched Acrobatic Charge and Evasion.  Acrobatic charge is more situational to the style of the player I think while Evasion is usually welcomed by all players.

Something else to keep in mind is that it is important to not step on other classes' toes. Monks and Rogues get Evasion at level 2. The Scout gets it at level 5 and the Ranger at 9. I think the first 6 levels are pretty much set in stone, any more power there would be unbalancing I think so level 7 seems good. The swashbuckler gets high AC early on, I say let the monk and rogue have evasion early.

I have tweaked Daredevil Athlete so that the bonuses last for 1 round. This way the swashbuckler can do something crazy involving multiple checks.  Or to make a ridiculous amount of tumble checks to get through a horde of enemies while moving full speed in order to rescue the damsel.  I suppose this opens up the possibility of having it last stat bonus rounds with each activation. I'll have to think about that.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 01:41:13 PM by DaveoftheRave »

Kuroimaken

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2009, 02:46:03 PM »
I've switched Acrobatic Charge and Evasion.  Acrobatic charge is more situational to the style of the player I think while Evasion is usually welcomed by all players.

Something else to keep in mind is that it is important to not step on other classes' toes. Monks and Rogues get Evasion at level 2. The Scout gets it at level 5 and the Ranger at 9. I think the first 6 levels are pretty much set in stone, any more power there would be unbalancing I think so level 7 seems good. The swashbuckler gets high AC early on, I say let the monk and rogue have evasion early.

I have tweaked Daredevil Athlete so that the bonuses last for 1 round. This way the swashbuckler can do something crazy involving multiple checks.  Or to make a ridiculous amount of tumble checks to get through a horde of enemies while moving full speed in order to rescue the damsel.  I suppose this opens up the possibility of having it last stat bonus rounds with each activation. I'll have to think about that.

Well, I don't think the swashbuckler steps on the Rogue's/Monk's toes. If anything he seems more in line with stepping on the ranger's toes, methinks. Either way, Evasion isn't a staple ability of either class, it's merely something they happen to gain.
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DaveoftheRave

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2009, 03:37:13 PM »
Quote
If anything he seems more in line with stepping on the ranger's toes

The ranger variant w/o spells is where I started.

The swashbuckler is a light melee character that doesn't live in the woods, have spells, an animal companion or is illiterate.

If it wasn't so frontloaded I would put Evasion there. I suppose I also think that having a very high AC in those first few levels and Evasion is a bit much.

Kuroimaken

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2009, 03:42:04 PM »
Well, as a general rule, having a high AC is mostly only worth it at low levels (after that, we're talking displacement). And on a light-armored character something like what you have for the swashbuckler is necessary. So it's not that frontloaded, honestly.
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DaveoftheRave

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2009, 04:42:37 PM »
Well, as a general rule, having a high AC is mostly only worth it at low levels (after that, we're talking displacement). And on a light-armored character something like what you have for the swashbuckler is necessary. So it's not that frontloaded, honestly.

I think it might come down to a difference in desired power levels.

I find for a non-spellcaster if the wizards boards think it is too powerful and this board thinks it's too weak then it's just about right.

Though I try to aim for high tier 4 and I think most people here like tier 3 so that makes sense.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2009, 03:53:24 AM »
My first thought:

Canny Defense! WOOT!

I absolutely HATE how rare and hard to acquire this ability is! I always thought Intelligence to AC was a given but apparently WoTC disagreed.

Then I read the rest of the class. The bonus feats may happen a bit too often and the bonus feat list might be a bit large. The d8 HD might be a bit too small and my personal opinion is that all classes should have meaningful capstones, which this one currently lacks.

Other than that it looks like a fun class to play without any glaring balance issues. The special abilities offer nice variation and I like that system of class-customization, plus the scaling abilities aren't bad at all.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 03:58:34 AM by Bloody Initiate »
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DaveoftheRave

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2009, 11:28:30 AM »
Quote
The bonus feats may happen a bit too often and the bonus feat list might be a bit large.

Keep in mind that the class is restricted to finesse weapons and doesn't have sneak attack.  The actual damage output is much lower than that of a fighter (which is a weak class to begin with). The only potentially unbalancing weapon I think is the Spiked Chain, but then that is a problem with the chain and not the Swashbuckler.

What about the feat list is too big? She has Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike and Two Weapon Fighting as main chains plus some misc. feats. Is there any one in particular that you think doesn't fit or do you just think it is unbalancing to have more options?

Quote
The d8 HD might be a bit too small

For a light melee class that has high AC and maneuverability? I suppose you think the ranger's hit die is too low? I think 'heavy' melee classes should have more hit points. The swashbuckler should feel it when she gets hit.

Quote
Other than that it looks like a fun class to play without any glaring balance issues. The special abilities offer nice variation and I like that system of class-customization, plus the scaling abilities aren't bad at all.

Thanks!

Bloody Initiate

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2009, 12:37:20 PM »
Improved Grapple and Stunning Fist seem thematically "off" to me and were the ones that jumped out at me. While I understand the character who takes Improved Grapple for the +4 to RESIST grapple rather than initiate it, this should not be a use programmed into a class. Feats or class abilities designed to resist rather than initiate grapple and other special combat maneuvers might be more appropriate.

Some such feats:
Cunning Sidestep (Draconomicon)
Clever Wrestling (Complete Warrior)

Beyond those two it seems I'm drawing a blank (For which i apologize), it seems like when I'm looking to boost my grapple check all I can find is stuff to resist grapple, but when I search for that stuff again it is absent. However something like the Factotum's Brains over Brawn may be appropriate to the Swashbuckler

Also the Miniatures Handbook has several Swashbuckler-esque gems, but a bonus feat list can only be so large :P (For some reason switching places with someone seemed like a Dread Pirate Roberts kinda thing, for example if he were backed up to a ledge he might use Martial Throw and then quip)

As for Stunning Fist, I really don't know why you had it there to begin with, but it always seemed like an extremely monk-ish feat to me (As evidenced by the fact that it has hard pre-reqs and only monks get more daily uses of it). The feats it qualifies you for are no different.

The d8 hit die isn't awful, I just didn't see it as a necessary downgrade (I have a policy similar to a doctor when creating custom content: "First, do no harm"). A lot of the time when people try to be balanced they overdo it and gimp something (A lot of third party content has this problem, it's not broken, it's timid and weak because its developers wanted it to see use).  

To answer your question about the Ranger, I think a LOT of things about the ranger are too low/bad. Their Hit Die, surprisingly, isn't one of them. Although I suppose if necessary I could hate on it, for now that class needs more than a better Hit Die in my estimation.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 03:56:23 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Kuroimaken

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2009, 12:54:05 PM »
I think a class that is based off a finesse fighter should probably have Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit on the bonus feat list. Those two, particularly when combined, work very well with the idea of constant riposte attacks.
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DaveoftheRave

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Re: [3.5] Revised Swashbuckler (reposting on correct board)
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2009, 07:20:01 PM »
Improved Grapple and Stunning Fist seem thematically "off" to me and were the ones that jumped out at me. While I understand the character who takes Improved Grapple for the +4 to RESIST grapple rather than initiate it, this should not be a use programmed into a class. Feats or class abilities designed to resist rather than initiate grapple and other special combat maneuvers might be more appropriate.

It's an option for if someone wants a swashbuckler that is self reliant and gets in bar fights and the like. Just think of the fluff differently, instead of a concentrated attack that knocks the wind out of someone like a monk would do, it would be a flying fist to the jaw that leaves them stunned.  Westley did quite the number to Fezzik after all...beat him by winning grapple checks.

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Some such feats:
Cunning Sidestep (Draconomicon)
Clever Wrestling (Complete Warrior)

Clever Wrestling might be good, I'll have to look it up. I don't have the other book.  I was mostly asking if there were any themes or main chains left out. If someone has a feat from a splatbook somewhere that they want to use in their game they can.  You can use the feats presented in the class to see if it would be in flavour.

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Beyond those two it seems I'm drawing a blank (For which i apologize), it seems like when I'm looking to boost my grapple check all I can find is stuff to resist grapple, but when I search for that stuff again it is absent. However something like the Factotum's Brains over Brawn may be appropriate to the Swashbuckler

Anything that boosts escape artist would be good for avoiding grappling rather than being better at it too. Though keep in mind that the Swashbuckler has a very good touch AC, you have to grab him to start a grapple.

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As for Stunning Fist, I really don't know why you had it there to begin with, but it always seemed like an extremely monk-ish feat to me (As evidenced by the fact that it has hard pre-reqs and only monks get more daily uses of it). The feats it qualifies you for are no different.

Brad Pitt's character in Snatch is hardly a monk and yet he knocks people out with one punch to the jaw.  I would think that very few people taking swashbuckler would go the IUS route, but the option is there if they want to. This is a base class so it should support multiple archetypes. It makes more sense for the lightly armoured class to support the brawler archetype than the fighter class which is designed around big weapons and armour.  I think people often design new classes with one character in mind and that is a mistake I think.

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The d8 hit die isn't awful, I just didn't see it as a necessary downgrade (I have a policy similar to a doctor when creating custom content: "First, do no harm"). A lot of the time when people try to be balanced they overdo it. 

The Swashbuckler is atrocious. It has a high hit die, good fort and poor reflex, that isn't in keeping with the theme as a light fighter. I started with the non-spellcasting Ranger variant and replaced the abilities with Swashbuckler ones. I don't think you should have more power just to have more power. If you really wanted to you could spend all your normal feats on toughness and have more hit points than the base swashbuckler and the class would still be more powerful.

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To answer your question about the Ranger, I think a LOT of things about the ranger are too low/bad. Their Hit Die, surprisingly, isn't one of them. Although I suppose if necessary I could hate on it, for now that class needs more than a better Hit Die in my estimation.

Yeah I agree. The problem is that the druid completely outshines it. The ranger should be able to do what its supposed to do better. The hit die I like though.

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I think a class that is based off a finesse fighter should probably have Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit on the bonus feat list. Those two, particularly when combined, work very well with the idea of constant riposte attacks.

He's got Robilar's Gambit.  To be honest I don't like Karmic Strike so I don't use it in my games. I think it is bad game design, causing characters to get punished for succeeding. If anything I think it should have been created for brutish characters rather than dodgy ones. It makes more sense flavourwise for a brute to not notice a blow and use that to attack...think of the movies where the hero stabs the villain and then the villain uses that to hit the hero. Though I still wouldn't like it for the game.

I could add a caveat that if you want to play with a feat from a splatbook as a bonus feat to go right ahead, but then I don't think I should have to.

I suppose the way of doing that with codified rules would be to have all feats with X prerequisites be bonus feats, though I still think it is unnecessary.