Author Topic: Astral Construct vs Fighter  (Read 21765 times)

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nijineko

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2011, 04:52:35 AM »
i would suggest, that to keep any duel fair, that if the psions spends xp, that they not be able to recover it; and start off at the minimum xp for whatever level the duel takes place at. thus if xp gets spent: specialized craftin, psyref, ect... the psion drops a level.
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oslecamo

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2011, 02:08:08 PM »
I have a better idea. For each day of crafting the psion does, the fighter gets one extra day's worth of exp and treasure. The world doesn't stop moving just because the psion decides to take a couple of weeks off. If the psion wants to turn into a crafter slowly building stuff at the rate of 1k per day it's his career choice, but adventuring is just much more profitable.

Nachofan99

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2011, 07:37:24 PM »
I have a better idea. For each day of crafting the psion does, the fighter gets one extra day's worth of exp and treasure. The world doesn't stop moving just because the psion decides to take a couple of weeks off. If the psion wants to turn into a crafter slowly building stuff at the rate of 1k per day it's his career choice, but adventuring is just much more profitable.

Why do you have to bring sanity and fairness to these forums Oslecamo?  Why can't it just be about crafters having automatic double WBL and experience as a river making sure that crafters effectively get double WBL granted for no cost to them?  Super applause  :clap

I think Lycanthromancer said leaving crafting out is an idea, and I think it's a good one.  Unless, of course, the resource of *Time* is going to be equally spent by both characters; the Crafter crafting, and the non-Crafter going out and adventuring.  In such a scenario, I can't see the crafter coming out ahead anyways.

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2011, 07:40:19 PM »
A standard 8-hour adventuring day still leaves time to craft.

Nachofan99

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2011, 07:42:36 PM »
A standard 8-hour adventuring day might leave time to craft, maybe.

Fixed for you.

Mooncrow

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2011, 07:43:53 PM »
A standard 8-hour adventuring day still leaves time to craft.

A standard 8 hour adventuring day still leaves time for more adventuring as well.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2011, 08:00:08 PM »
A standard 8-hour adventuring day still leaves time to craft.
8 hours? Don't you mean 5 minutes?
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Halinn

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2011, 08:53:27 PM »
A standard 8-hour adventuring day still leaves time to craft.

A standard 8 hour adventuring day still leaves time for more adventuring as well.

Unless your party is out of the spells needed for safe-ish adventuring. And if you haven't been fighting (say, you're just walking to a dungeon), then you'll only be able to walk for 8 hours without making constitution checks.

Mooncrow

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #68 on: October 27, 2011, 08:59:45 PM »
A standard 8-hour adventuring day still leaves time to craft.

A standard 8 hour adventuring day still leaves time for more adventuring as well.

Unless your party is out of the spells needed for safe-ish adventuring. And if you haven't been fighting (say, you're just walking to a dungeon), then you'll only be able to walk for 8 hours without making constitution checks.

We can make up scenarios at each other all day, but the point stands; if the crafter has 8 hours a day to do his crafting, the fighter has time to do other things as well. 

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #69 on: October 27, 2011, 09:59:34 PM »
Idle proposal just because I feel like it:

Level 10, use whatever prestige classes you feel like, Fighter must have at least 5 levels of Fighter and others must be Prestige Class, no Hyperconscious and such unless there is a commonly accepted martial equivalent, no flaws, 0 or 1 traits, standard WBL, 32 point buy, half experience to next level and crafting possible, LA buy-off, any 3.5 race (including unupdated 3.0), fractional BAB.

Scenario, as given:
- Astral Construct is made permanent by mysterious means and must act without the interference of the psion upon reaching the arena, where it arrives in the evening and has to wait til morning.
Well, most DMs (far as I know) allow both Hyperconscious and UTP if they allow psionics at all, as one was written by the author of the XPH, and the other is widely considered better-written than most official material (and by the official Pathfinder psionics people, no less).

And having a permanent astral construct without the creator nearby doesn't work, because the creator has to direct the construct as it goes. If the construct is there, so is the creator.

The rest of it I can swing with, although not the crafting, as I mentioned.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #70 on: October 27, 2011, 10:05:44 PM »
Idle proposal just because I feel like it:

Level 10, use whatever prestige classes you feel like, Fighter must have at least 5 levels of Fighter and others must be Prestige Class, no Hyperconscious and such unless there is a commonly accepted martial equivalent, no flaws, 0 or 1 traits, standard WBL, 32 point buy, half experience to next level and crafting possible, LA buy-off, any 3.5 race (including unupdated 3.0), fractional BAB.

Scenario, as given:
- Astral Construct is made permanent by mysterious means and must act without the interference of the psion upon reaching the arena, where it arrives in the evening and has to wait til morning.
Well, most DMs (far as I know) allow both Hyperconscious and UTP if they allow psionics at all, as one was written by the author of the XPH, and the other is widely considered better-written than most official material (and by the official Pathfinder psionics people, no less).

And having a permanent astral construct without the creator nearby doesn't work, because the creator has to direct the construct as it goes. If the construct is there, so is the creator.

The rest of it I can swing with, although not the crafting, as I mentioned.
1) I've played in multiple games where psionics was used, but not UTP or Hyperconscious.

2) What difference does it make? Are you planning to buff and/or heal the construct, or interact with it while it fights? When I play a shaper, I never do that, as I don't want to be in combat and/or waste more power points on a temporary construct. So I don't think that's a realistic scenario at all. It's also not construct vs. fighter, it's construct + psion vs. fighter, which seems to be counter to the purpose here. If you're not planning to do that, then what difference does it make?
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #71 on: October 27, 2011, 10:55:12 PM »
 :lol ... I saw this thread title and laughed ... loudly.


Divine Mind 5 , ya rilly with the Creation mantle
pops out 1 level 4 AC as a standard action (acf)
pops out 1 level 3 AC as a standard action (acf)
All have the 2 stack AC CPsi modifier thingy, that can attack first
and then blow up the next round with type-less damage.
1 or 2 attacks hit, and then the bang happens.
pops out a level 2 AC as a full action, on 2 encounters.

After doing that, it's a bad Divine Mind vs. a whatever Fighter.
My money is on the Fighter at that point.
So Divine Mind for 4 encounters, but not for the 5th and on.

Something that can ping out more and better ACs , is easy peasy.


EDIT --- Divine Mind only has a chance if he can fight the Fighter too.
 :pout
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 11:04:18 PM by awaken DM golem »

Nunkuruji

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2011, 10:57:51 PM »
A standard 8-hour adventuring day still leaves time to craft.
8 hours? Don't you mean 5 minutes?

A loot conscious group will be taking 20 to search for at least an hour a day, if not more... unless they start spam/persist some spell that lets them take 20 as a standard/move.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2011, 11:02:13 PM »

Scenario, as given: - Astral Construct is made permanent by mysterious means and must act without the interference of the psion upon reaching the arena, where it arrives in the evening and has to wait til morning.


How about the -fester of the AC is just outside the arena.
Standard initiative checks.
If fighter wins, he readies or does something.
Regardless of winning the -Fester manifests the AC.
Fighter can attack the AC at that point.
-Fester can buff the AC from outside the arena, otherwise normal rules.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 11:05:38 PM by awaken DM golem »

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2011, 11:22:10 PM »
Idle proposal just because I feel like it:

Level 10, use whatever prestige classes you feel like, Fighter must have at least 5 levels of Fighter and others must be Prestige Class, no Hyperconscious and such unless there is a commonly accepted martial equivalent, no flaws, 0 or 1 traits, standard WBL, 32 point buy, half experience to next level and crafting possible, LA buy-off, any 3.5 race (including unupdated 3.0), fractional BAB.

Scenario, as given:
- Astral Construct is made permanent by mysterious means and must act without the interference of the psion upon reaching the arena, where it arrives in the evening and has to wait til morning.
Well, most DMs (far as I know) allow both Hyperconscious and UTP if they allow psionics at all, as one was written by the author of the XPH, and the other is widely considered better-written than most official material (and by the official Pathfinder psionics people, no less).

And having a permanent astral construct without the creator nearby doesn't work, because the creator has to direct the construct as it goes. If the construct is there, so is the creator.

The rest of it I can swing with, although not the crafting, as I mentioned.
1) I've played in multiple games where psionics was used, but not UTP or Hyperconscious.

2) What difference does it make? Are you planning to buff and/or heal the construct, or interact with it while it fights? When I play a shaper, I never do that, as I don't want to be in combat and/or waste more power points on a temporary construct. So I don't think that's a realistic scenario at all. It's also not construct vs. fighter, it's construct + psion vs. fighter, which seems to be counter to the purpose here. If you're not planning to do that, then what difference does it make?
Astral Construct + psion + Ectoskeleton (UTP) = extremely dangerous vegan meatshield (with meatshield filling).

So the construct is the outer shell with psion as the nougat.

Also, no direct damage, SoDs, debuff powers, or battlefield control.

It's a great way to optimize the Astral Construct power.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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Agita's awesome poster collection.
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shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
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Nachofan99

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #75 on: October 28, 2011, 12:00:41 AM »
Yeah I figured "Power Armor" when I saw one of your posts.  I think it's kind of against the spirit of the thread.  I think it's literally about the AC vs the Fighter.  Granted, the Manifester has to make the AC, and if the Manifester has feats and abilities to improve the AC, the AC gets improved - I don't think anyone is at all against that.

But the AC+Fester vs the Fighter; Fighter loses badly.  Then again, I think the AC on its own also loses badly to the Fighter at all levels of optimization.

So maybe we can meet in the middle, like the Shark vs the Bear in a shallow river where neither's maneuverability is affected.  The Manifester can direct the AC from outside the Arena but maybe that should be the limit of the Manifester's interaction besides the initial creation of said AC.  Otherwise, the Fighter is definitely posting "Incantatrix Want Ads" all over town before this goes down.  I think that I would personally allow any kind of "AC only" Powers to be used.

Again, it's about the spirit of what is being asked.  A commoner buffed to the gills by other guys is better than a Fighter on his own;  is an Astral Construct on its own better than a Fighter on its own?  At least I think that's what is the heart of the matter.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #76 on: October 28, 2011, 12:08:25 AM »
Fair enough, although if you'll note, that was a nice piece of astral construct op-fu, and as you already noted, it's quite probable that the fighter would lose. Note that I could do the exact same thing with my psicrystal.

I'll forego Ectoskeleton, then.

I'll still make a good showing, I think.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Necrosnoop110

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #77 on: October 28, 2011, 01:22:48 AM »
Yeah I figured "Power Armor" when I saw one of your posts.  I think it's kind of against the spirit of the thread.  I think it's literally about the AC vs the Fighter.
That was my intention, at least.

oslecamo

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #78 on: October 28, 2011, 01:32:53 AM »
Fair enough, although if you'll note, that was a nice piece of astral construct op-fu, and as you already noted, it's quite probable that the fighter would lose. Note that I could do the exact same thing with my psicrystal.

I'll forego Ectoskeleton, then.

I'll still make a good showing, I think.

Would you just mind stoping to bring homebrew? Otherwise the fighter sides reserves itself the side of picking any non-wotc material they want as well. All you've shown so far is that the AC can win if you bring in enough 3rd party material for the psion, which is completely irrelevant when the fighter is limited to just wotc books.

Nachofan99

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #79 on: October 28, 2011, 01:44:58 AM »
I think we're still feeling out the "rules of engagement" and nothing appears to be concrete.