Author Topic: Astral Construct vs Fighter  (Read 21520 times)

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Endarire

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2011, 12:37:12 AM »
When we say "Fighter," are we talking a single-classed Fighter?  Kuz, y'know, even Fighters can be Hoods.

Are we talking a Lycanthromancer-like Shaper who can manifest much higher level astral constructs than normal?  That matters lots.  Even an optimized Fighter8 Hood may have trouble against a Shaper8 or ShaperX/ConstructorY focused on astral construction.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Kajhera

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2011, 12:44:54 AM »
When we say "Fighter," are we talking a single-classed Fighter?  Kuz, y'know, even Fighters can be Hoods.

Are we talking a Lycanthromancer-like Shaper who can manifest much higher level astral constructs than normal?  That matters lots.  Even an optimized Fighter8 Hood may have trouble against a Shaper8 or ShaperX/ConstructorY focused on astral construction.

We're talking about a single-classed fighter. My first proposed build was a Hood, or so I believed. I welcome someone better at them - since I failed at Leadership earlier I'm probably too tired to be optimizing characters for the day.  :)

Regrettably, for the second scenario, Lycanthromancer is *precisely* who we are up against.  :bigeye I fear facing his legal builds much more than simple cheese. Simple cheese I could more or less solve with a wand.

Endarire

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2011, 12:48:49 AM »
Before I propose my build, I need to know where this fight is happening.  Environments matter, y'know!
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Kajhera

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2011, 12:58:55 AM »
Before I propose my build, I need to know where this fight is happening.  Environments matter, y'know!

Takes place in an arena. Anyone want to propose further features?

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2011, 01:00:58 AM »
So, level 10, optimized for whatever, one PrC, all books (with Hyperconscious and Untapped Potential?) and online content, two flaws and one or two traits, standard WBL? How about 42 point buy, to make it easier on the fighter?

Races? LA-buyoff? No crafting, I assume.

Also, just one fighter vs one astral construct? Fighter can't attack the psion, and the psion can't do anything but make a construct and, what, augment it as he likes during the fight? Or can the psion get more involved, so long as he doesn't directly attack the fighter with anything but his construct?

Any other houserules?

Oh, and the arena has to be rather large. Large enough to fit both the construct and the fighter.

[edit] Oh, and I believe I shall give my construct a nice fat Int score...
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 01:11:33 AM by Lycanthromancer »
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I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
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 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Nachofan99

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2011, 01:27:19 AM »
While I don't think that Arena style matches really definitely proves anything, for the love of Pun-Pun, could we please *really* have builds and *really* see this play out?  I will donate my time to help make it happen if required.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2011, 01:29:22 AM »
While I don't think that Arena style matches really definitely proves anything, for the love of Pun-Pun, could we please *really* have builds and *really* see this play out?  I will donate my time to help make it happen if required.
Well, you know I'm good for it. How many times have I posted something paroxysm-inducing on these boards?

Also, I really need to know the restrictions for this. What am I allowed to do, and what am I restricted from doing in the actual thing? Can I use any powers and effects that affect myself, my psicrystal, and the construct, and nothing else, after it enters the fray? Obviously using SoDs on the fighter is right out, as is boxing him up in...well...a box. No Disintegrates, etc.

But what about the rest?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 01:30:53 AM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2011, 01:29:30 AM »
Honestly it depends if the Fighter has Flight or not, and who is manifesting the Astral Construct.

1) Low Levels, pretty even, both have advantages. Higher level. if the fighter has flight, probably the fighter. If not, the Astral Construct.

2) Low Levels, Probably Fighter, but the AC can trip real nasty like and has DR/magic. Higher Levels fighter.

3) Fighter Across the board.

The only thing to note is the advantage of Astral Construct is that you can replace the Construct easily. Astral Constructs ae not meant to be more powerful then fighters per say, but large numbers and the being easily sacrificed are the advantages of Astral Constructs, and when utilize to their fullest easily outmatch a fighter.
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Nachofan99

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2011, 01:36:31 AM »
While I don't think that Arena style matches really definitely proves anything, for the love of Pun-Pun, could we please *really* have builds and *really* see this play out?  I will donate my time to help make it happen if required.
Well, you know I'm good for it. How many times have I posted something paroxysm-inducing on these boards?

Also, I really need to know the restrictions for this. What am I allowed to do, and what am I restricted from doing in the actual thing? Can I use any powers and effects that affect myself, my psicrystal, and the construct, and nothing else, after it enters the fray? Obviously using SoDs on the fighter is right out, as is boxing him up in...well...a box. No Disintegrates, etc.

But what about the rest?

Of course we need limits, but, I think we can have gentlemen's agreements to decide that designed by the participants amongst themselves.

So level 10 - agree or disagree?
LA or no LA - agree or disagree?
42 pt buy - agree or disagree?
etc.

I believe in tit for tat.  If one side says "Well I don't like this aspect of your build" then the other side could say "Well I don't like this aspect of your build.  I won't use X if you won't use Y" or "I think X works this way - you say X works that way."  If neither side can agree then I would suggest "both" things be disallowed, but that's just my 2 CP.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2011, 01:37:16 AM »
Honestly it depends if the Fighter has Flight or not, and who is manifesting the Astral Construct.

1) Low Levels, pretty even, both have advantages. Higher level. if the fighter has flight, probably the fighter. If not, the Astral Construct.

2) Low Levels, Probably Fighter, but the AC can trip real nasty like and has DR/magic. Higher Levels fighter.

3) Fighter Across the board.

The only thing to note is the advantage of Astral Construct is that you can replace the Construct easily. Astral Constructs ae not meant to be more powerful then fighters per say, but large numbers and the being easily sacrificed are the advantages of Astral Constructs, and when utilize to their fullest easily outmatch a fighter.
Basically, this. Though I can make a construct more powerful than a fighter. But I'm special, and that's hardly an appropriate yardstick for this kind of thing.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Ithamar

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2011, 01:40:18 AM »
Before I propose my build, I need to know where this fight is happening.  Environments matter, y'know!

Takes place in an arena. Anyone want to propose further features?

Perhaps randomly select one of my 12 arenas?
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Mixster

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2011, 01:43:09 AM »
Before I propose my build, I need to know where this fight is happening.  Environments matter, y'know!

Takes place in an arena. Anyone want to propose further features?

If the ground is made of sand, a Mineral Warrior might gain an unfair advantage?

---
Also does the Astral Construct guy have to be a Psion, or can it be an Erudite who happens to like manifesting Astral Construct?
---
I suggest we give each party 2-3 rounds to buff. However the Astral Construct can't be buffed by the psion who created it at all.
---
If using Dual Plane Summons is ok, I suggest the following build for Mr. Astral Constructor:
Assuming LA is a river (so +1 LA is pretty much free)
Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn Kobold Sorcerer 2/Ardent (creation mantle) 1/Cerebremancer 5/Incantatrix 2
With Boost Construct and Practiced Manifester, you could summon up a Flying Chain Devil with increased reach that could absolutely terrorize ground bound attackers if it gets fly by attack.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2011, 01:44:54 AM »
Before I propose my build, I need to know where this fight is happening.  Environments matter, y'know!

Takes place in an arena. Anyone want to propose further features?

If the ground is made of sand, a Mineral Warrior might gain an unfair advantage?

---
Also does the Astral Construct guy have to be a Psion, or can it be an Erudite who happens to like manifesting Astral Construct?
---
I suggest we give each party 2-3 rounds to buff. However the Astral Construct can't be buffed by the psion who created it at all.
---
If using Dual Plane Summons is ok, I suggest the following build for Mr. Astral Constructor:
Assuming LA is a river (so +1 LA is pretty much free)
Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn Kobold Sorcerer 2/Ardent (creation mantle) 1/Cerebremancer 5/Incantatrix 2
With Boost Construct and Practiced Manifester, you could summon up a Flying Chain Devil with increased reach that could absolutely terrorize ground bound attackers if it gets fly by attack.
Why no AC buffs? After all, the fighter can buff himself. :p

What about 'no buffs on the AC after the buff round(s)'?

And can the fighter attack the psion? Or is he like a Pokemon trainer? Attacks on Pokemon only.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 01:46:30 AM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2011, 01:47:01 AM »
Why no AC buffs? After all, the fighter can buff himself. :P
Because the time it takes for the psion to manifest buffs for his Astral Construct is significantly less than the time it takes the fighter to put a "wizard wanted" notice in the local paper.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2011, 01:50:33 AM »
Why no AC buffs? After all, the fighter can buff himself. :P
Because the time it takes for the psion to manifest buffs for his Astral Construct is significantly less than the time it takes the fighter to put a "wizard wanted" notice in the local paper.
And how many buffs are you aware of that can affect an astral construct, without using a StP erudite (which I'm NOT using)?

I say, buffing is fine in the buff rounds, at least. And if I'm out on the battlefield (rather than, say, in the stands), I'm fair game. If I'm up in the stands watching my Pokemon fight, the fighter isn't allowed to attack me. Sound fair? Actually, scratch that. I'm going to be pulling some other tricks out of my hat. So long as it's the effects of the Astral Construct doing the beating it's fair game, right?

MUAHAHAHAHA
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 01:58:58 AM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2011, 01:57:59 AM »
I honestly don't care either way, I was just taking a cheap shot at the fighter. :P

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2011, 02:02:20 AM »
I honestly don't care either way, I was just taking a cheap shot at the fighter. :P
Well, I have ideas on what I want to do the tanking in this, so I do rather need to know what's on and what's off the table for me. Both on specs on the build and allowed sources, as well as rules to use in forging my ectoplasmic warrior.

I can't do this in a vacuum, y'all!
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

lianightdemon

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2011, 02:03:24 AM »
Go Ectoplasm! I Choose you!

Kajhera

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2011, 03:30:41 AM »
So, level 10, optimized for whatever, one PrC, all books (with Hyperconscious and Untapped Potential?) and online content, two flaws and one or two traits, standard WBL? How about 42 point buy, to make it easier on the fighter?

Races? LA-buyoff? No crafting, I assume.

Also, just one fighter vs one astral construct? Fighter can't attack the psion, and the psion can't do anything but make a construct and, what, augment it as he likes during the fight? Or can the psion get more involved, so long as he doesn't directly attack the fighter with anything but his construct?

Any other houserules?

Oh, and the arena has to be rather large. Large enough to fit both the construct and the fighter.

[edit] Oh, and I believe I shall give my construct a nice fat Int score...

Idle proposal just because I feel like it:

Level 10, use whatever prestige classes you feel like, Fighter must have at least 5 levels of Fighter and others must be Prestige Class, no Hyperconscious and such unless there is a commonly accepted martial equivalent, no flaws, 0 or 1 traits, standard WBL, 32 point buy, half experience to next level and crafting possible, LA buy-off, any 3.5 race (including unupdated 3.0), fractional BAB.

Scenario, as given:
- Astral Construct is made permanent by mysterious means and must act without the interference of the psion upon reaching the arena, where it arrives in the evening and has to wait til morning.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2011, 03:54:02 AM »
Bah, goddamned boards ate my post. Equal optimization, I think the fighter will win every time, except at what I'd consider TO levels.

Level 1 = sword and board fighter with weapon spec. vs. base level 3 AC. The fighter has all around better stats.

Level 2 = level 4 AC with two menu B choices (Boost Construct) vs. a fighter with a flying mount, a lance, and Ride-by-Attack + Spirited Charge. Fighter wins because they trade blows at a 1 for 1 rate, and he outdamages the AC by a lot. Even if the AC has Improved Grab, it won't work as it is the same size as the fighter.

Level 3 = too many variables. Barring insane TO stuff, I think the fighter probably still wins most of the time, though.
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