Author Topic: Surprise round - Ready + Delay  (Read 2478 times)

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awaken DM golem

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Surprise round - Ready + Delay
« on: August 02, 2008, 10:03:01 PM »
If you win surprise, and you ready and delay,
then do you go first on the next round ?

The idea being, instead of winning initiative, you win surprise.

DemonLord57

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Re: Surprise round - Ready + Delay
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2008, 03:16:29 AM »
I don't quite get it. You can't ready and delay though. Also, delaying waits until at least one other creature's turn finishes, so you'd have to go second, if that was your intention. I guess if you couldn't do anything in the surprise round, this (if it works, I guess you wouldn't roll initiative...) would be a good way of being able to act near the beginning of the battle.

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Re: Surprise round - Ready + Delay
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2008, 05:40:47 AM »
It's kind of a silly idea.  The difference between going at Initiative 20 and Initiative 1 with surprise assuming the opponent has init 10 or so, is like this:

You Surprise, Enemy, You, Enemy, You, Enemy, and on and on...

or

You, Enemy, You, Enemy, You, Enemy, and on and on...

Granted you get another move and a minor in the second case, but if you just remember to ambush from 5-10 squares away or so then the extra actions are less helpful.

The real benefit of surprise is that you already go first, regardless of anything else, and you also have a chance at going two times in a row.

Omen of Peace

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Re: Surprise round - Ready + Delay
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2008, 09:00:07 AM »
He probably wants to move and use a power, so it's not that silly to me.
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Eepop

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Re: Surprise round - Ready + Delay
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2008, 08:12:56 PM »
You can only delay your entire turn not just a standard action (which is all you get in a surprise round).

awaken DM golem

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Re: Surprise round - Ready + Delay
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2008, 10:17:40 PM »
hmm ...

The part I'm having trouble with, is a real world and imaginary world example.

Let's say a Wolf is stalking the Party, silently.
Under the Surprise rules, it could only Move or Attack Ranged (or minor - pant?), on the surprise round.
Presumeably, it doesn't have a ranged attack, so can only move to close, on the surprise round.
Then, Party and Wolf roll initiative, and the Wolf might not be able to attack first.

Now, do I have the above example right?
If so, that just seems ... I don't know ... weird.
A Wolf can't really surprise attack a party, unless Party walks right by the Wolf's square.

I know 4e is different than 3.5e and back, but ...

The 1st post, is getting ahead of myself.
If you can Ready/Delay/dump the surprise round, to go first on round 1,
then a Wolf can surprise attack a party; but in a more natural way.
Am I being too real world-ish?
Am I being too Previous-edition-ish?

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Dan2

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Re: Surprise round - Ready + Delay
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2008, 10:19:53 PM »
Using that example, I'm pretty sure you could still charge... :-\  The wolf still has something it could do...

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Re: Surprise round - Ready + Delay
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2008, 12:27:25 AM »
Yes, the Wolf can charge.  Whats more, it can move before it ambushes.  There's no magic circle around the heroes that if a monster is inside it then everyone rolls initiative.

Alpha

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Re: Surprise round - Ready + Delay
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2008, 06:20:38 AM »
Let's say a Wolf is stalking the Party, silently.
Under the Surprise rules, it could only Move or Attack Ranged (or minor - pant?), on the surprise round.
Priceless.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Surprise round - Ready + Delay
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2008, 11:02:27 PM »
I was gonna put "Lick His !@#$'s" , but then I figured that would include a ~move action.
And heck, that's not really a combat situation, more like an "extended" rest.
oh I don't know when to quit


:)


So, we've got:

option 1: Surprise - one action
option 2: Surprise dump - go 1st on 1st round
option 3: Charge - (Move+Attack) but the minor weakness
... (option 3 is technically as possible choice within option 1)

awaken DM golem

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Re: Surprise round - Ready + Delay
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2008, 08:57:50 PM »

You Surprise, Enemy, You, Enemy, You, Enemy, and on and on...

or

You, Enemy, You, Enemy, You, Enemy, and on and on...

hmm ...

(1) - Surprise You , Init check win , You , Them , You , Them ...
(2) - Surprise You , Init check lose , Them , You , Them , You ...
(3) - Surprise Delay , no init check , You , Them , You , Them ...

So taking the Surprise round, means you get 1 action, and then variability kicks in, and that might not be good.
Not taking the Surprise round, means you get Full action, and less variability, and that might be better.

I think in Optimizing, reducing variables is almost always the better choice, but certainly not always.


EDIT - oops, bad day, forget the 1/day
Divine Oracle PP for Clerics, jacks up the surprise round, and gives 2 initiative checks 1/day.
Even getting surprised by the bbeg, this yields:
(4) - No Surprise , Init check semi-auto-win , You , Them , You , Them ...
(4a) - No Surprise , Init check win 1/day , You , Them , You , Them ...

I'm assuming semi-auto-win because, a CO party is gonna have at least 1 good initiative PC, and 5:<5 fights favor the Party.
(4a) gets a win because the reroll init check works out to +4 to +5 equivalent, most of the time. Solos are in trouble.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 11:09:47 PM by awaken DM golem »

DemonLord57

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Re: Surprise round - Ready + Delay
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2008, 11:56:38 PM »
??? What's this about 1/day?

In any case, as I said before, someone actually has to take a turn before you can jump back in. Also, I think I figured out how it would work, and it's quite interesting.

Using this:
Quote from: page 267
THE SURPRISE ROUND
Two special rules apply to the surprise round.
? Limited Action: If you get to act in the surprise round, you can take a standard action, a move action, or a minor action (see “Action Types”). You can also take free actions, but you can’t spend action points. After every nonsurprised combatant has acted, the surprise round ends, and you can act normally in subsequent rounds.
and this:
Quote from: page 288 (Delaying)
? Coming Back into the Initiative Order: After any other combatant has completed a turn, you can step back into the initiative order. Perform your actions as desired and adjust your initiative to your new position in the order.
? Losing a Delayed Turn: If you don’t take your delayed turn before your initiative comes up, you lose the delayed turn and your initiative remains where it was.
First, the limiting of your actions during the surprise round is linked to it being the surprise round, and isn't as though you receive only one action. So, delaying will indeed give you a full turn. Second, since the way you 'lose' your delayed turn is by coming back to your initiative, that's exactly how it works. You delay, then roll initiative, and if you haven't taken your delayed turn before your initiative pops up, you lose it and take your new turn. In other words, this delaying guarantees you either first (if you roll that high) or second (assuming you want to act as soon as possible) place in the round.

As for getting higher initiative, (you were talking about +4-5 giving you close to auto success...) simply have a Warlord in the party. +2 to initiative in Heroic, and +Int or Cha mod past that (they will get Combat Commander, even if it has to be forced upon them by the rest of the party.) +6 or so to the entire party is nice, neh? +8-9 or so in Epic. Still doesn't guarantee you're going first, but makes it likely.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Surprise round - Ready + Delay
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2008, 11:26:24 PM »
??? What's this about 1/day?

In any case, as I said before, someone actually has to take a turn before you can jump back in. Also, I think I figured out how it would work, and it's quite interesting.
ermh ... that's  the 1/day I make a boo-boo. Just ignore (4a) totally; the 2 init. rolls for a DO's party is still semi-auto-win.

hmm ...
"this delaying guarantees you either :
first (if you roll that high) or
 second (assuming you want to act as soon as possible) place in the round."

first or second , weird.
I wonder if readying is what I was reading that gave me these ideas.
This game is very different than v3.5 (whining).



Ranger's have Evade Ambush as a Utility 6. Obviously multiclass-able.
Allies are not surprised, total number equal to Wis Mod of Ranger. It's NO action, range is sight.
---> the Ranger is not included in the "not surprised" part; it's just the allies. I'd think that the Ranger would have to be not surprised first to use the No action. But that's not what the text says. And it is using a power, and that is an action, even if it's a no action. Paradox. Fun.

So that surprise round goes ???


[tangent] Lord of Procrastination had an Initiative/Surprise thread for 3.5. I think 4e needs one. Caelic said Initiative is key.